SSPX vs Sedevacantism

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DeepeningFaith

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Ok, so I know this is a very touchy issue. I am really looking for SSPXers to answer this question for me. I don’t want an argument. I just am looking for an answer/proof.

How can one say that SSPX is not sedevacantist? (Please no snide answers like “you can’t.”)

I know that they accept the Pope as the Pope. Therefore the seat is not vacant. However, I guess I think of this all illogical. No Pope can be a heretic. If so, they cease to be Pope. SSPX holds that Vatican II was heretical (I believe). The Pope says that it is not. Therefore, according to this logic. The Pope is a heretic and the seat is vacant.

Is my logic right or am I missing something?

Also, another issue that I have realized is that sedevacantists seem to listen to their own magisterium and it seems that SSPX does the same? They accept the Pope and the Magisterium but do not listen to them! How does that work?

I know this is very loaded, but I figured I should just get all my questions out. Please answer my questions, and not eachother’s comments.

Pax!
 
I read one answer to this question recently from a bishop of the SSPX himself. It went like this:

He said that to be formally guilty of heresy, one has to be obstinate. This means that someone has to be rebuked for his heresy, and refuse to recant it. Since the pope hasn’t been formally, legally, accused of heresy under canon law, he therefore can’t be obstinate.

Please note, I **don’t **believe that the pope is a heretic, but that was something I read recently and I thought it might help you.
 
The SSPX aren’t sedevacantist because they oppose sedevacantism and believe that each pope the Church has acknowledged as validly elected is validly elected.

SSPX articles on sedevacantism - as you can see from these, they aren’t sedevacantist anymore than an average Catholic unaffiliated with any other religious organization within the Church. It’s also a stretch to say that they accept the pope and Magisterium but don’t listen to them, end of story. They have serious concerns with matters of contemporary Church discipline and direction, not dissent on dogmatic matters of faith and morals.
 
How can one say that SSPX is not sedevacantist? (Please no snide answers like “you can’t.”)
By definition, the sedevacantist agrees that the Papal See is vacant and the man who claims to be Pope is in a fact an anti-pope. The SSPX does not believe that, that is why they are not sedevacantists.
No Pope can be a heretic.
Not sure where you got that from. There is no guarantee that a pope is protected from saying or holding to heretical ideas. The charism of infallibility pertains only to what the pope teaches. He can certainly hold heretical views and can actually say heretical things. That would not make him loose the papacy. That would make him a material heretic, not a formal heretic.
SSPX holds that Vatican II was heretical (I believe).
No they don’t.
The Pope says that it is not. Therefore, according to this logic. The Pope is a heretic and the seat is vacant.
I have never heard that argument made by any sedevacantist - that the pope is a heretic because he defends the validity of the council. The SSPX believes that V2 was a validly called council.
Also, another issue that I have realized is that sedevacantists seem to listen to their own magisterium
They adhere to the magisterium up to V2 and believe that since there have been no valid popes or Councils since then, that the magisterium was ‘frozen’ after the death of Pope Pius XII. They did not make up their own magisterium.
and it seems that SSPX does the same? They accept the Pope and the Magisterium but do not listen to them! How does that work?
The SSPX accepts the magisterium including the documents of V2. Their argument is that the magisterium cannot contradict the magisterium. So they take issue where the interpretation of the documents of V2 contradicts with what the magisterium has previously taught. The Vatican believes that it is worth investigating, which is why the SSPX-Vatican conferences are taking place.
 
He Deepening Faith. Here is my explanation.

I have quoted ad nauseam the references for what Paul VI said about Vatican II. The disclaimers of Paul VI give us the liberty, if not the obligation to treat this Council in a different way than those which propose definitve dogma. In relation to Vatican II, The Society of St. Pius X gets criticised for believing the pope! I guess they are supposed to ignore the Paul VI when he says his council isn’t making any definitions? To some, believing the pope about the limited authority of Vatican II in matters of doctrine borders on sedevacantism. Its weird when you think about it.

You seem like you want to know. Maybe you haven’t seen the quotes so here they are again. I’ve included some original comments from an old e-mail that might be helpful that was originally from around 2005 to someone who was disturbed when it was disclosed that his old friend had begun assisting at SSPX masses:
  1. “Differing from other councils, this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral.”
Pope Paul VI, General Audience of August 6, 1975, To the rectors of the Universities of the Society of Jesus
  1. “Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council…But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements…”
Pope Paul VI, Address of the last general meeting of the Council, Dec. 7, 1965
  1. “There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.”
Pope Paul VI, General Audience of Dec. 1, 1966
  1. “Taking into account conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present council, the sacred synod defined as binding on the Church only those matters of faith and morals which it has expressly put forward as such.”
Addendum of Nov. 16, 1964 (alluded to by Paul VI above) in the Explanatory Note to Lumen Gentium.

A little commentary might be helpful here. Many of the council fathers were wary of the theological ambiguity that characterized the volumes of words with which they had to deal. You can read about this in The Rhine Flows Through the Tiber, by Fr. Ralph Wiltgen. Earlier councils were written with the concise brevity and clarity that characterizes your writing (name). Your writing is easy to analyze. It is easy to know if you agree or disagree, and it is the kind of writing that is required in an infallible pronouncement. Of what use is an infallible pronouncement that is subject to multiple interpretations?

So, some of the more conservative council fathers, before signing off on Lumen Gentium, wanted to make certain that they weren’t signing off on something that could be said to be binding on the Church. In response they were directed to a document written four months previously to Lumen Gentium, that applied not only to that document, but to the entire council. It can be misleading seeing it is now seen as an explanatory note to Lumen Gentium, but a careful reading of the whole explanation will reveal that it applied to all of the Council teachings. That would be why Paul VI cited that explanatory note when qualifying the teaching authority of the entire Council in his audience of Dec. 1, 1966.

It seems to me to be at least very doubtful about whether Paul VI intended to proclaim Vatican II to be proclaiming infallible teachings. Subsequently, many conservative Catholics have taken a position which doesn’t take into consideration the distinct difference drawn between Vatican II and all previous ecumenical councils by its promulgator, Pope Paul VI. The problem is that those Catholics (like the SSPX) who have recognized the liberty we have to question the fallible teachings of the Council, have been so attacked and maligned by the liberal bishops who predominate in the episcopal conferences, that they have been demoted to an at best irregular status in the Church, while many or most are convinced we are excommunicated and in schism. It is the saddest story, and upon hearing it and understanding it, recognizing that we are not bound to accept fallible teachings, I gained a clear conscience in associating myself with faithful Catholics who in their own ironic way, are much more liberal than those who malign them. Those in the majority cannot perceive of any development in the Catholic understanding of an ecumenical council. They seem unwilling to even comment upon the statements of Paul VI, or the history of a Council where it seems like many of the documents were only accepted with the assurance that they were NOT infallible.
 
  1. “Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council…But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements…”
Pope Paul VI, Address of the last general meeting of the Council, Dec. 7, 1965
Do you have the rest of this quote? I’m very interested in what the rest has to say.
It seems to me to be at least very doubtful about whether Paul VI intended to proclaim Vatican II to be proclaiming infallible teachings. Subsequently, many conservative Catholics have taken a position which doesn’t take into consideration the distinct difference drawn between Vatican II and all previous ecumenical councils by its promulgator, Pope Paul VI. The problem is that those Catholics (like the SSPX) who have recognized the liberty we have to question the fallible teachings of the Council, have been so attacked and maligned by the liberal bishops who predominate in the episcopal conferences, that they have been demoted to an at best irregular status in the Church, while many or most are convinced we are excommunicated and in schism. It is the saddest story, and upon hearing it and understanding it, recognizing that we are not bound to accept fallible teachings, I gained a clear conscience in associating myself with faithful Catholics who in their own ironic way, are much more liberal than those who malign them. Those in the majority cannot perceive of any development in the Catholic understanding of an ecumenical council. They seem unwilling to even comment upon the statements of Paul VI, or the history of a Council where it seems like many of the documents were only accepted with the assurance that they were NOT infallible.
Indeed! Those who slander the SSPX as well as other traditionalists who question things about VII are, ironically, more uptight than those they accuse of being uptight.

In any event, these quotes by Paul VI about the nature of the council are very revealing. Yes, we must accept the dogmatic teachings of any ecumenical council as well as accept the validity of any ecumenical council, as this is part of our faith. Therein lies the rub - we are bound to assent to dogmatic teachings, not that which is not dogmatic and binding. Accepting that the council is* valid* is vastly different than accepting everything within it (or presumed to be within it) as dogmatic.
 
I was under the impression that the SSPX believed that Pope Benedict is an “antiPope”… was I wrong? (I hope so!)

if the SSPX accept the Holy Father, that makes sense why the Vatican is continuing dialogue with them… are they still in schism?

it’s good to hear they’re not sedevacantists 👍

but I was wondering… why be SSPX? why not simply be a traditional Catholic and attend an FSSP Mass?
 
You are wrong Monica they accept all the popes as catholic. Its most holy family monastery that thinks Pope Benedict is an antichrist
 
Do you have the rest of this quote? I’m very interested in what the rest has to say.

Indeed! Those who slander the SSPX as well as other traditionalists who question things about VII are, ironically, more uptight than those they accuse of being uptight.

In any event, these quotes by Paul VI about the nature of the council are very revealing. Yes, we must accept the dogmatic teachings of any ecumenical council as well as accept the validity of any ecumenical council, as this is part of our faith. Therein lies the rub - we are bound to assent to dogmatic teachings, not that which is not dogmatic and binding. Accepting that the council is* valid* is vastly different than accepting everything within it (or presumed to be within it) as dogmatic.
Lycorth hi,

I know I have the rest of that quote somewhere. I remember doing the ellipses myself and wondering if it was worth citing that way. The main reason I wanted it was because of the date, the same day as the promulgation of the last two documents Gaudium et Spes and another one. I’d have to see it again to know why I “ellipsed” it like that for the e-mail. Actually, now that I think of it, the quotes were gathered for a refutation of an article in New Oxford Review where an author named John LaMont openly claimed that the whole thing was de fide (!), by virtue of its being a valid ecumenical council. I don’t think NOR was quite ready at that time for a refutation of that widely believed myth. Anyway, I’ll look around some more. I am pretty sure I can get it off of another computer if need be. I’ll get back to you on that if I find it again.

Rory
 
I was under the impression that the SSPX believed that Pope Benedict is an “antiPope”… was I wrong? (I hope so!)

if the SSPX accept the Holy Father, that makes sense why the Vatican is continuing dialogue with them… are they still in schism?

it’s good to hear they’re not sedevacantists 👍

but I was wondering… why be SSPX? why not simply be a traditional Catholic and attend an FSSP Mass?
I don’t speak for all SSPX affiliated lay people but I don’t even know where the nearest FSSP Mass was when we started in 2005 at our SSPX chapel. There still isn’t one any closer than 125 miles. You start going to a parish and you make friends. Your children are confirmed, married, and maybe a son goes to seminary. You don’t just uproot on account of some libellous cloud that was already hanging over the Society of St. Pius X when you carefully weighed the arguments for and against. Maybe you believe that when that cloud lifts, one or more of the holy priests and bishops that you have taken to the airport will be recognized as a hero or even saint, instead of a villain. You want to be associated in even such a small way. These would be some common reasons I think.
 
The Papal seat would only become vacant if the Pope was a manifest heretic. Meaning he left the Church for another religion or sect, or an election of someone(to the papacy) who has left the church, would not be valid. The Church does not teach that individual Catholics can look at a statement or numerous statements by a Pope, and then conclude they are a heretic, and therefore the seat is vacant. That would lead to utter chaos… ie. that is what sedevacantism is, utter chaos…

Pope Paul IV: Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio is the letter written by Paul IV in anticipation of a Cardinal that had secretly become a Protestant. If he had actually become a Protestant then his election wouldnt be valid…
 
I was under the impression that the SSPX believed that Pope Benedict is an “antiPope”… was I wrong? (I hope so!)
Happily wrong; they openly profess filial devotion to Pope Benedict, the same as they did for Pope John Paul II.
if the SSPX accept the Holy Father, that makes sense why the Vatican is continuing dialogue with them… are they still in schism?
No; their canonical status is “irregular”, definitely not “schismatic”. The excommunications on the four bishops whom Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated at Econe in 1988 were recently lifted by Pope Benedict, though the Society and the Vatican still have much to mend between them.
it’s good to hear they’re not sedevacantists 👍

but I was wondering… why be SSPX? why not simply be a traditional Catholic and attend an FSSP Mass?
No reason you can’t do either; I’m not an SSPX member but I admit, if a chapel was nearby, I’d go to it - I am even considering joining their Third Order.

For me, much of it is personal; when I was starting to reconsider Catholicism (after a 3-4 period of apostasy), the SSPX’s website and free materials were instrumental in helping me return to the Church. I’d love to be able continue my spiritual walk as a Catholic with the SSPX if I had the chance. Also, I’d love to stand for Catholic tradition with the first Catholic organization to do so after the fallout of Vatican II - the SSPX.

Though one certainly does not have to join any traditionalist organization, or can participate with all of them (provided they are not sedevacantist). At the moment, I am simply a traditional Catholic who just has been able to make it to his first Traditional Latin Mass and isn’t a part of any order or group. I’d like to change that, as it is in my nature to join up with a group for a good cause, but we’ll see what God and the future has in store 🙂
Lycorth hi,

I know I have the rest of that quote somewhere. I remember doing the ellipses myself and wondering if it was worth citing that way. The main reason I wanted it was because of the date, the same day as the promulgation of the last two documents Gaudium et Spes and another one. I’d have to see it again to know why I “ellipsed” it like that for the e-mail. Actually, now that I think of it, the quotes were gathered for a refutation of an article in New Oxford Review where an author named John LaMont openly claimed that the whole thing was de fide (!), by virtue of its being a valid ecumenical council. I don’t think NOR was quite ready at that time for a refutation of that widely believed myth. Anyway, I’ll look around some more. I am pretty sure I can get it off of another computer if need be. I’ll get back to you on that if I find it again.

Rory
No problem - DeepeningFaith linked me to the document. Thank you, anyway! 🙂
 
I don’t speak for all SSPX affiliated lay people but I don’t even know where the nearest FSSP Mass was when we started in 2005 at our SSPX chapel. There still isn’t one any closer than 125 miles. You start going to a parish and you make friends. Your children are confirmed, married, and maybe a son goes to seminary. You don’t just uproot on account of some libellous cloud that was already hanging over the Society of St. Pius X when you carefully weighed the arguments for and against. Maybe you believe that when that cloud lifts, one or more of the holy priests and bishops that you have taken to the airport will be recognized as a hero or even saint, instead of a villain. You want to be associated in even such a small way. These would be some common reasons I think.
Yeah, typically the problem is that even if you can find an FSSP parish nearby, you are being provided the TLM at the good graces of the local ordinary. You are able to access the traditional latin Mass this way (good thing!) but often do not have access to the traditional sacraments (bad thing!) or traditional catechises outside of Mass (bad thing!). Whereas, at the SSPX you are part of a total parish community that consists of traditional Mass, catechism, sacraments, etc and not just another “alternative Mass” at a diocesan parish.

Hopefully the FSSP will be given more leeway at local parishes (or, ideally, their own parishes) so that they can also offer these things in a total package but right now the freedom of the FSSP to do things is restricted by the local ordinary who may or may not be friendly to the availability of the TLM.

However, as our SSPX and FSSP parishes are very close (within 10 miles of each other) there is a bit of crossover between them occasionally. Especially after the lifting of the excommunications, the SSPX chapel was way more crowded on Sunday.

Hope this helps. 🙂
 
Yeah, typically the problem is that even if you can find an FSSP parish nearby, you are being provided the TLM at the good graces of the local ordinary. You are able to access the traditional latin Mass this way (good thing!) but often do not have access to the traditional sacraments (bad thing!) or traditional catechises outside of Mass (bad thing!). Whereas, at the SSPX you are part of a total parish community that consists of traditional Mass, catechism, sacraments, etc and not just another “alternative Mass” at a diocesan parish.

Hopefully the FSSP will be given more leeway at local parishes (or, ideally, their own parishes) so that they can also offer these things in a total package but right now the freedom of the FSSP to do things is restricted by the local ordinary who may or may not be friendly to the availability of the TLM.

However, as our SSPX and FSSP parishes are very close (within 10 miles of each other) there is a bit of crossover between them occasionally. Especially after the lifting of the excommunications, the SSPX chapel was way more crowded on Sunday.

Hope this helps. 🙂
SSPX and the Sedevacantists are alike in that they disobey the Pope.
In fact the Sedevacantists have a superior argument. They say that if you acknowledge the Pope as being the Pope and refuse to obey his direct commands then you are schismatic.

Ecclesia Dei also advise the faithful not to frequent SSPX chapels because of the schismatic mentality.

Pope Benedict XVI in APOSTOLIC LETTER “MOTU PROPRIO” ECCLESIAE UNITATEM
states
“the Society has no canonical status in the Church and its ministers cannot legitimately exercise any ministry.”

This letter was sent by the Pontifical Commission to an Australian man who was checking the status of the SSPX.
"While the priests of the Society of St Pius X are validly ordained, they are also suspended a divinis, that is they are forbidden by the Church from celebrating the Mass and the sacraments because of their illicit (or illegal) ordination to the diaconate and to the priesthood without proper incardination (cf. canon 265). In the strict sense there are no “lay members” of the Society of St Pius X, only those who frequent their Masses and receive the sacraments from them.

Therefore I have no doubt that those who attend SSPX chapels exclusively and regard themselves as being members of the SSPX and have confessions heard there and get married there and who refuse to attend or have any communion at an OF mass are in formal schism. This can easily be deduced by the words of Pope John Paul II in 1988 who stated
“formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.”

Nothing from the current Pope has backed away from that statement although he refrains from bluntly stating these things while sensitive negotiations are transpiring.

This fact alone, that the Pope is not able to command the SSPX but must negotiate and cajole with them speaks volumes. The Pope is there to be obeyed by Catholics, not negotiated with. It is true that we can resist the Pope if we believe that he is wrong on a serious matter, but we need to do so with grave fear and trembling and we may not disobey his direct command.
 
Sedevacantists and most diocesan bishops are alike in that they both disobey the pope.
Sad but true. We certainly are facing a wave of disobedience throughout the world. Maybe the FSSP are the only obedient Catholics left.
 
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