SSPX

[ProVobis]

If there was any mud-slinging, it might be the poster who called the OF a frankenstein. Let’s be fair, ok?

So then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s call of the Novus Ordo as a “banal fabrication” got you ticked off as well?

 

[chrisb]

So then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s call of the Novus Ordo as a “banal fabrication” got you ticked off as well?

Which book was that in?

 

[ProVobis]

Which book was that in?

Monsignor Gamber’s book.

You’re welcome.

 

[maurin]

They only came out of the woodwork when erroneous information was posted after the correct reply was submitted to the OP. See post #19. I challenge you, W_H, to demonstrate that anyone has “slung mud.” If there was any mud-slinging, it might be the poster who called the OF a frankenstein. Let’s be fair, ok?

false witness, joysong, is contrary to the Decalogue. Shame on you. It seems the gist of the following post still stands.

One should first read and then understand what another has written before feigning the high road, joysong. You have absolutely misunderstood my post.

But that certainly is your modus operandi.

If anyone else misunderstood what I wrote, please feel free to ask for clarification.

 

[centurionguard]

However one believes that the Ordinary Form of the Mass was composed, the fact is that His Holiness has declared it the Ordinary Form for the Latin Rite and has called it holy.

Whether something comes from the back kitchen of the Vatican or is handed down to us through thousands of years of tradition, in the end, when the Holy Father speaks, the case is closed. The Novus Ordo is the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite and we have to accept that. We can make it beautiful and solemn, but we cannot wish it away when the Church tells us that it is not going away.

It is our duty as Catholics to support the wisdom of the Holy Father and to speak words of reconciliation, not throw more mud into the ring. That will not make things better, not will it make us better Christians. It will certainly not make us Instruments of Peace.

An Instrument of Peace is one who who as St. Augustine said to his friars, “Works in harmony with the Church, not one who reluctantly goes along.”

To put it as St. Francis said, “An Instrument of Peace only speaks words that will bring peace to souls, not further pain, anger and resentment.”

Fraternally,

JR

(“More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”)

It is not my presumptuous belief here but if God should choose to a lot mankind another one-hundred to a thousand years in this world; Church history will record that Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass was one of the biggest mistakes the Catholic Church every made. And I am the least of anybody to make such a bold statement. In the end all things hidden are disclosed in the light of Christ.

Peter you are The Rock
And On This Rock I Will Build My Church
And The Gates Of Hades Will Not Prevail Against Her

 

[JReducation]

(“More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”)

It is not my presumptuous belief here but if God should choose to a lot mankind another one-hundred to a thousand years in this world; Church history will record that Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass was one of the biggest mistakes the Catholic Church every made. And I am the least of anybody to make such a bold statement. In the end all things hidden are disclosed in the light of Christ.

Peter you are The Rock
And On This Rock I Will Build My Church
And The Gates Of Hades Will Not Prevail Against Her

That’s an opinion that you can hold. But right now, don’t you believe that we need to sow seeds of peace among Catholics in a world where there are so many at each other’s throats?

JR

 

[centurionguard]

That’s an opinion that you can hold. But right now, don’t you believe that we need to sow seeds of peace among Catholics in a world where there are so many at each other’s throats?

JR

JR …What you state here is very true. Perhaps my statements in my last post were born out of frustrations, feeling discarded, and perhaps a little anger. I am by no means stating that what I posted was (“Total”) complete accurate description of how those who have grave concerns for the situations surrounding the Church today but I am vigilant in how I view many scenarios taking place in the Catholic Church today some very positive while much in disarray. Make no mistake; I do have a great love for OUR Catholic Church. However; I am bothered by a very strong statement that Jesus speaks about in End Times. EVEN THE ELITE WILL BE FOOLED IN THEIR THINKING IN THE END. Now before I go on let me say that I am by no means advocating we are in fact living in End Times so to speak. Though I won’t dispel certain events in present earth human history giving a precursor to such an event.

Like you I too think we need to sow seeds of peace among ALL Catholics where so many are at each others throats.
Yet; I feel it necessary to quote Chapter passages in Ecclesiasticus Chap 1: Verses 1-40 and all of Chapter 2: Verses 1-34. which helps me focus when their is a Crisis happening in the world. The Late Archbishop Fulton Sheen one of my favorite inspired modern writers once said that any person who is completely content with the happenings going on in the Church needs to pray a great great amount. Pope Paul IV on his death bed made a very powerful statement…He said; THE SMOKE OF SATAN HAS ENTERED THE CHURCH. This was at the closing of Vatican II. Should not all Catholics have great concern for these words without posturing their own opinionated version of WHO these words really were directed to ? The obvious answer was Not just the Clergy alone but the whole Church.

In Peace Brother
Vivat Jesus
Brother Chris

 

[napoli426]

I pray the SSPX returns fully to the church. I also pray, that we learn something from the many good and orthodox people who belong to the SSPX.

 

[bobzills]

. Pope Paul IV on his death bed made a very powerful statement…He said; THE SMOKE OF SATAN HAS ENTERED THE CHURCH.

I think when you look at what has happened with Catholic marriage annulments, you come to a similar conclusion as did Pope Paul VI. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments in the USA. Contrast that with more than 60,000 in recent years. And take a look at the blatant advertising that we see from lawyers and paralegals, who are encouraging people to pay them for the forms and advice which will support their petition for the annulment.

 

[maurin]

That’s an opinion that you can hold. But right now, don’t you believe that we need to sow seeds of peace among Catholics in a world where there are so many at each other’s throats?

JR

perhaps it is better stated as the seeds of Truth must be resown before Its blooms of peace will be able to reclaim the soil?

 

[pnewton]

perhaps it is better stated as the seeds of Truth must be resown before Its blooms of peace will be able to reclaim the soil?

That assumes the current tree is dead and lacks the truth. I find this to be a strange opinion for a Catholic to hold.

 

[maurin]

That assumes the current tree is dead and lacks the truth. I find this to be a strange opinion for a Catholic to hold.

Careful who you accuse of assuming, cowboy. I find it to be strange that a Catholic would come to your conclusion that my point was that the tree is dead and lacks the Truth.

Sadly unnecessary.

 

[maurin]

That assumes the current tree is dead and lacks the truth.

I’m certain that your assumption is wrong. Do you know what Felix Unger says about those who assume?

I find this to be a strange opinion for a Catholic to hold.

I find it to be strange that a Catholic would presume such malintent.

Unless of course he is so naive as to believe there are no problems at all in the current state of things.

 

[pnewton]

I’m certain that your assumption is wrong. Do you know what Felix Unger says about those who assume?.

Yes, it is why I wanted to mention the problems in assuming things. I have never used this crass example, even though I often could. If this is not your opinion, then your analogy of planting new trees is ridiculous, unless you are referring to the Protestant idea of starting a new Church are every hiccup. I will stick with the one tree rooted in Jesus. The seeds of Truth do not need to be resown then, as the one tree sown on the eternal Truth is quite healthy, thank you.

Yes, I see the possibility or even probability of malintent when one wants to plant their own tree on their own Truth, unless the analogy truly did not reflect what you meant.

 

[maurin]

Yes, it is why I wanted to mention the problems in assuming things. I have never used this crass example, even though I often could. If this is not your opinion, then your analogy of planting new trees is ridiculous, unless you are referring to the Protestant idea of starting a new Church are every hiccup. I will stick with the one tree rooted in Jesus. The seeds of Truth do not need to be resown then, as the one tree sown on the eternal Truth is quite healthy, thank you.

Yes, I see the possibility or even probability of malintent when one wants to plant their own tree on their own Truth, unless the analogy truly did not reflect what you meant.

You are speaking out of the side of your head, pnewton. If you don’t know what I meant–which is quite obvious–you might try asking.

And try, if you will, to keep to the original metaphor.

 

[pnewton]

And try, if you will, to keep to the original metaphor.

But it makes no sense. That is why you are upset. If we look at your analogy, there is too much implied that is flat wrong for the metaphor to make any sense at all. We do not re-plant Truth. The Catholic Church builds on what it has. Perhps there is a basic underlying philisophical difference between those attracted to SSPX and most Catholics.

 

[603304529]

And so we refer some members to: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

LETTER OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI TO THE BISHOPS

A letter of Pope Benedict XVI to all Bishops of the world on the removal of the excommunication of the Bishops of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX) and on all aspects involving the subsequent problems related to Bishop Richard Williamson is set to be released tomorrow (Thursday). Several Italian news sources provide some excerpts of the letter this morning, and we will provide a translation as soon as possible.

Excerpts (UPDATED):

The letter will announce that the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” will be placed under the authority of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (though, as of this moment, it is not clear if only regarding doctrinal matters). The Pope makes clear for Traditionalists that it is not possible to “freeze” the Magisterial authority of the Church in 1962 - but he also chides those who proclaim themselves to be “great defenders of the Council” but who do not wish to understand that Vatican II carries with it “the entire doctrinal history of the Church”.

The Pope is frank with those who proclaim ecumenism, but who do not wish to follow through with it with the Fraternity: “May we consign to utter indifference a community in which there are 491 priests, 215 seminarians, … 117 brothers, 164 sisters, and thousands of faithful? Should we truly let them drift away from the Church? Are we allowed to simply exclude them, as representatives of a radical and marginal group, from the search for unity and reconciliation?”
…
“A mishap unpredictable to me was the fact that the Williamson affair was placed above the remission of the excommunication. The discreet gesture of mercy towards the four Bishops, ordained validly but not licitly, appeared unexpectedly as a completely different matter: as a denial of the reconciliation of Christians and Jews, and thus as a repeal of that which the Council had clarified for the path of the Church regarding this matter.”
…
“I am saddened by the fact that even Catholics, who in the end should have known better how things stand, considered having to assail me with a hostility ready for attack. For this, I thank even more the Jewish friends who have helped to promptly remove the misunderstanding and to reestablish an atmosphere of friendship and trust.”

Some of the concluding words are strong: “The impression is often given that our society feels the need for at least one group to which no tolerance is to be granted; which one may perfectly abuse with hatred. And if anyone dares to approach them, he also loses his right to tolerance and he also may be treated with hatred, with no fears or reservations.”

 

[maurin]

But it makes no sense. That is why you are upset. If we look at your analogy, there is too much implied that is flat wrong for the metaphor to make any sense at all. We do not re-plant Truth. The Catholic Church builds on what it has. Perhps there is a basic underlying philisophical difference between those attracted to SSPX and most Catholics.

Actually, for having pointed out yourself that you are the one putting forward the idea of challenging assumptions (go up about 4 posts or so), you have been operating on your own ridiculous assumption.

Even after telling you that your assumption is incorrect, and requesting that you ask for clarification–which you continue to ignore–you continue to assert yourself irrationally. You have continually set up a straw-man, and you are coming off more as a quixotic character chasing windmills that just aren’t there.

You may do that alone.

 

[pnewton]

You have continually set up a straw-man, and you are coming off more as a quixotic character chasing windmills that just aren’t there.

You may do that alone.

I looked back I do not see what you see. Oh well…

 

[Unitas]

Nooooooo. That was the big stink between the good Archbishop and the Holy Father. He sent him a letter telling him not to ordain the bishops and advising him that he would incur excommunication.

There is a copy of the letter on the Vatican web site, but it’s in Italian, if you read Italian. Let me see if I can Google an English translation for you.

JR

Actually, Abp. Lefebvre was only asked to postpone the consecrations, for a third time. He went ahead with the plans that were already set for June 30, iirc. Rome knew who he wanted to consecrate. He went ahead and consecrated them anyway, despite Rome wanting him to wait. And we know how it ended.