SSPX

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But if they have brothers and sisters then they do have lay people.

The Church only recognizes two categories of people, lay and clergy.

Even consecrated religious in orders under solemn vows are lay people if they are not ordained.
They certainly “have” them but I don’t know how you count them. In the rest of the Catholic world, those in religious life and those in third orders are “counted” as part of the diocese in which they live and also as part of their congregation. I don’t think that those brothers and sisters are “counted” a third way; as also part of the SSPX. But who knows. 🤷
 
So, can we finally celebrate? Is it official?

If that is the case :dancing::clapping::extrahappy:

How long approx. until everything is normal? Brother JR? Thanks for all of your great posts!

Wonderful thread & posts! God Bless you all! Thank you!👍

God Bless our Holy Father!! On his Anniversary!:highprayer:

What a great week for our Pope & the Church!!:tiphat:

Pax,

Megan:signofcross:
 
As a lay, unaffiliated (with a religious order) Catholic, I would not go to any church or chapel and/or participate in any liturgy that was not approved of by the local ordinary.
If it’s a personal prelature and the chapel isn’t part of the diocese, I would think it doesn’t need the local bishop’s approval to be legitimate. Confessions are a separate matter. However discretion is advised always.
 
I think celebration is premature, other than celebrating that the reconcilliation is at least moving forward. This process is not complete. The preamble was not signed as is. It was modified and signed.
 
They certainly “have” them but I don’t know how you count them. In the rest of the Catholic world, those in religious life and those in third orders are “counted” as part of the diocese in which they live and also as part of their congregation. I don’t think that those brothers and sisters are “counted” a third way; as also part of the SSPX. But who knows. 🤷
Religious are not counted as part of the diocese if they are part of an institute that is of pontifical right.

So are you saying that a lay person can make vows to the SSPX and they are not counted as members of the SSPX?

Seems odd.

I am sure this will all be dealt with at the appropriate time.
 
If it’s a personal prelature and the chapel isn’t part of the diocese, I would think it doesn’t need the local bishop’s approval to be legitimate. Confessions are a separate matter. However discretion is advised always.
Even with a personal prelature (the only one in the entire church currently is Opus Dei) the prelature needs permission of the local ordinary to opperate within his diocese. I would assume that this would include the need for his approval to build a physical structure and reserve the Blessed Sacrament anywhere within his dominion.
 
Even with a personal prelature (the only one in the entire church currently is Opus Dei) the prelature needs permission of the local ordinary to opperate within his diocese. I would assume that this would include the need for his approval to build a physical structure and reserve the Blessed Sacrament anywhere within his dominion.
With that being said, any Bishop can stop the SSPX from operating within his diocese just by not giving permission? Considering the history of the SSPX and people’s responses to prodigal son types, I see a hard road ahead. Though of course not as hard as they have it now as an irregular group.
 
With that being said, any Bishop can stop the SSPX from operating within his diocese just by not giving permission? Considering the history of the SSPX and people’s responses to prodigal son types, I see a hard road ahead. Though of course not as hard as they have it now as an irregular group.
We don’t know. We will have to wait and find out the structure Rome and the SSPX come up with. I am sure that if they exist in a location, if the local bishop asks them to leave, there will be an appeal process that can be made, or will be set up for these instances. But, in the meantime, the SSPX remain an irregular group within the Church with no official status. This is what we are waiting for, and until this is decided, all else, especially with regards to approval and structure, must be put on hold.
 
I keep hearing this claim yet the SSPX lists brothers and sisters that they say are part of the SSPX as well as a third order.
Third orders are another thing entirely. These SSPX third orders can be classified right now as an unapproved associations of the faithful. That’s not a terrible thing. There’s probably other unapproved associations of the faithful right now in your diocese, wherever you are. They’re that common. However, these traditional third orders are NOT structurally part of any of the big third orders you’re used to thinking about, Secular Franciscans and all that.

When and if the personal prelature (or whatever that I keep hearing about) is erected, then it will be up to whoever leads that structure to approve these organizations or not, within that prelature. They’ll be talking to Rome about them and probably they will be roughly analogous to “Associations of the Faithful of Diocesan Right” only specific to that prelature. Where they go from there will probably follow about the same path any association like that follows and will be subject to similar canons, I expect.

This piece will actually be the easiest piece of the reunion to resolve, I think.
 
Religious are not counted as part of the diocese if they are part of an institute that is of pontifical right.

So are you saying that a lay person can make vows to the SSPX and they are not counted as members of the SSPX?

Seems odd.

I am sure this will all be dealt with at the appropriate time.
No, no. The SSPX ONLY consists of clergy. That’s it. There are no SSPX laypeople and there are no SSPX religious. This was a conscious decision made very early in the history of the SSPX, and it was a wise one.

Members of traditionalist religious groups which have affiliated themselves informally with the SSPX (since there’s no other way to affiliate themselves-see previous paragraph) are not approved by the Holy See, or any diocese. Therefore they are neither Pontifical Right nor Diocesan Right religious. They’re unapproved associations of the faithful. This is not terrible. There are probably several of these in your own diocese right now, wherever you are. They are that common. These groups will probably seek recognition in the days to come, and they will probably seek it through the prelature to come, if it’s set up so they can do that. And they will have to account for their rules and constitutions and all that, just like all unapproved associations of the faithful do in order to get approved.
 
They aren’t a third order of ther SSPX. They are third order Franciscans who are attached to the SSPX in some way. They have separated, at least jurisdictionally, from the Franciscan orders of brothers and sisters.
It’s not that they separated themselves in some way. Their group was formed in 1980. But by joining that, they never joined an approved Franciscan group, since that group is not approved by the Holy See or any diocesan bishop, but rather is an Unapproved Association of the Faithful.

People have the right to freely associate and this is what they’ve been doing. If and when the SSPX comes back, this group will probably want to seek approval.
 
Third orders are another thing entirely. These SSPX third orders can be classified right now as an unapproved associations of the faithful. That’s not a terrible thing. There’s probably other unapproved associations of the faithful right now in your diocese, wherever you are. They’re that common. However, these traditional third orders are NOT structurally part of any of the big third orders you’re used to thinking about, Secular Franciscans and all that.

When and if the SSPX comes back, these groups will probably want to seek approval.
 
There is a third order. Which is kind of strange since the SSPX is not an order. I wonder how they will be affected.
In the Code of Canon Law of 1983 the term Third Order was applied to any association of the faithful that shares in the charism and spirituality of an institute. The institute does not have to be an order, in which case, it’s third order, is not a canonical order. That’s how I understand it. It seems to be a term to refer to secular orders as well as secular associations attached to an institute.

I think of it like “Pampers”. How many people set out to buy Pampers and purchase Huggies? There is a brand name called Pampers, but the term became so popular that all disposable diapers are often referred to as pampers.
They aren’t a third order of ther SSPX. They are third order Franciscans who are attached to the SSPX in some way. They have separated, at least jurisdictionally, from the Franciscan orders of brothers and sisters.
They’re not Franciscan. I just read their rule on their site. They do not mention Francis, nor do they include the Rule of Penance in their constitution and their infrastructure is different. They are governed by the priests of the Society. Secular Franciscans govern themselves, have their own rule, their own funds and properties, and use the friars as spiritual assistants.

They mention very specifically that the focus is on the priesthood. None of Francis’ rules focus on the priesthood. There have always been friars who are priests and Secular Franciscans that are priests, but the Franciscan family does not exist to do priestly ministry. It’s main focus is one living the Gospel, not on priesthood.

The SSPX would cease to exist if it lost all of its priests. Nothing would change among Franciscans if we lost all of our priests. We have many houses without priests and we do perfectly fine. Most of the Secular Fraternities do not have a priest as a spiritual assistant.
But if they have brothers and sisters then they do have lay people.

The Church only recognizes two categories of people, lay and clergy.

Even consecrated religious in orders under solemn vows are lay people if they are not ordained.
I think that what gets people confused is the difference between lay and laity. Perfectae Caritatis was written under the code of 1917, which used the term lay for anyone who was not ordained. But it makes perfectly clear that non ordained religious (male or female) are not part of the laity. They are in a separate group. This is repeated in Vita Consacrata.

For this reason, many orders have stopped referring to their non ordained members as lay brothers unless that is what the founder truly intended, such as the Carthusians and Dominicans. In those communities, the Fathers and the Brothers share one spirit, but different vocations.

Among Benedictines, Franciscans, Trinitarians, not sure about Carmelites, all professed members are canonically religious brothers and do not cease to be religious brothers if they are ordained. They all share in the same religious vocation. Hence the reason for avoiding the term “lay brother” so as not to confuse it with orders that truly have two separate vocations and not to confuse it with laity.

** Vita Consecrata Parr 60) According to the terminology currently in use, Institutes which, by reason of their founders’ design or by legitimate tradition, have a character and purpose which do not entail the exercise of Holy Orders are called “Lay Institutes”.Nonetheless the Synod pointed out that this terminology does not adequately express the particular nature of the vocation of the members of these Religious Institutes. In fact, although they perform many works in common with the lay faithful, these men do so insofar as they are consecrated, and thereby express the spirit of total self-giving to Christ and the Church, in accordance with their specific charism.For this reason the Synod Fathers, in order to avoid ambiguity and confusion with the secular state of the lay faithful,proposed the term Religious Institutes of Brothers.**

It may be that in the context of the SSPX people are confusing the brothers with the laity. They are both lay, because they are not ordained, but both are not part of the laity. The consecrated life is a separate state from the state of the laity and Holy Orders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
They’re not Franciscan. I just read their rule on their site. They do not mention Francis, nor do they include the Rule of Penance in their constitution and their infrastructure is different. They are governed by the priests of the Society. Secular Franciscans govern themselves, have their own rule, their own funds and properties, and use the friars as spiritual assistants.

They mention very specifically that the focus is on the priesthood. None of Francis’ rules focus on the priesthood. There have always been friars who are priests and Secular Franciscans that are priests, but the Franciscan family does not exist to do priestly ministry. It’s main focus is one living the Gospel, not on priesthood.

…clip…

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
[speaking of the third order only]

I agree that this doesn’t sound at all Franciscan. If this group seeks approval, they’ll probably have to fix all these non-Franciscan properties or seek approval as something else. Sometimes groups do that.

Or they might want to just choose to go on as an unapproved association of the faithful. Some groups do.

Or again, they might disband. Some groups do that too.
 
Even with a personal prelature (the only one in the entire church currently is Opus Dei) the prelature needs permission of the local ordinary to opperate within his diocese. I would assume that this would include the need for his approval to build a physical structure and reserve the Blessed Sacrament anywhere within his dominion.
Then what is the purpose of a personal prelature? I thought the whole idea was to reconcile with the church, which means the Pope and all his bishops. Remember what happened in 1975 when the local (Econe) bishop suspended Bishop Lefebrve, which subsequently led to further separation of the order from Rome? I don’t think we want to go through that again. I’ll save my celebration for the time being.
 
Then what is the purpose of a personal prelature? I thought the whole idea was to reconcile with the church, which means the Pope and all his bishops. Remember what happened in 1975 when the local bishop (Econe) suspended Bishop Lefebrve, which subsequently led to further divisiveness of the order? I don’t think we want to go through that again.
The point of a personal prelature is to allow the SSPX to come into union with the Church without having to disperse all the people to N.O. parishes in regular dioceses just like that.

It sets up a structure so that the prelature is like a diocese that cuts across all the boundaries and gives the people who have been going to the SSPX parishes a “home” that’s somewhat familiar to them.

The details of all this have yet to be worked out…ie. whether the prelature has to notify the local bishop of its presence etc. I’m sure the Holy See is working on all this as we speak. I’m also sure that they won’t hobble the SSPX so that it can’t practice near its people. That would be counterproductive, and yes as you say, just set the whole thing off again. It would change absolutely nothing except the anger level of the SSPX. You are correct in that. I’m sure Pope Benedict recognizes this too. He’s a brilliant man.
 
Even with a personal prelature (the only one in the entire church currently is Opus Dei) the prelature needs permission of the local ordinary to opperate within his diocese. I would assume that this would include the need for his approval to build a physical structure and reserve the Blessed Sacrament anywhere within his dominion.
I’m sure that this is being taken under advisement by the Holy See as they’re working on this. They will not want to restrict the former SSPX too much, it is true, or it could set the whole thing off again, and we don’t want that.

The SSPX has property of its own, and in some cases it’s nicer property than ours. No need to worry about that.
 
They’re not Franciscan. I just read their rule on their site. They do not mention Francis, nor do they include the Rule of Penance in their constitution and their infrastructure is different. They are governed by the priests of the Society. Secular Franciscans govern themselves, have their own rule, their own funds and properties, and use the friars as spiritual assistants.
This is nothing to do with SSPX, but I know a group that has adopted a Rule based on the 1888 Rule for Secular Franciscans. Can these people call themselves Franciscans?
 
This is nothing to do with SSPX, but I know a group that has adopted a Rule based on the 1888 Rule for Secular Franciscans. Can these people call themselves Franciscans?
They’re not members of the Secular Franciscan Order, who use the rule of 1978.

But they are some kind of an association of the faithful, simply by virtue of meeting together, I think.

Are they approved by the bishop of the diocese they’re in, or are they approved by the Holy See in any way? Do they have constitutions?
 
I’m sure that this is being taken under advisement by the Holy See as they’re working on this. They will not want to restrict the former SSPX too much, it is true, or it could set the whole thing off again, and we don’t want that.

The SSPX has property of its own, and in some cases it’s nicer property than ours. No need to worry about that.
As I was saying before, the SSPX seem to know where to build (or buy) their chapels. They know how to attract people to the EF. And if the local bishop feels slighted by that fact, we’re almost certain to see some major breaks. Last thing we need coming from the reconciliation.
 
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