SSPX

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Heterical? That depend on what the poster means by “deficient,” doesn’t it? I think the Pauline sacraments are valid and can be beautiful in their way, but are sometimes deficient in clarity – the wording has ambiguities that can be easily exploited by the heterodox. Conversely, the traditional sacraments so clearly express in words what they signify that they are a catechesis in themselves. I don’t think I’ve said anything heterical, have I? But perhaps “deficient” is a loaded word, insinuating more than the poster meant by it.

At any rate, I admit that we’re getting off-topic and that a real discussion of this is beyond the bounds allowed by CAF.
Yes, perhaps I chose my words poorly (or emotionally). But I think you understood my meaning.

And I do not want to go beyond the bounds allowed by CAF, either, but I did want to defend myself against the charges of schism and heresy.
  • PAX
 
Exactly. When we have preferences, we have reasons, and if we are rational humans, then we want to have the best reasons, which means that we actually believe our reasons have some sort of substance to them.
  • PAX
Well, yes, but that doesn’t mean that you have to believe that another choice is invalid. I have an Irish grandmother and an Italian grandmother; one would regularly do a novena to St. Jude (Irish), the other to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel (Italian).

One has a preference for the St. Jude novena (no doubt because she always raised money for the children’s hospital). The other preferred Our Lady of Mt. Carmel (no doubt because that was the name of her parish). Did my Irish grandmother believe that there was something wrong or deficient about my Italian grandmother’s novenas? Of course not. But she still preferred St. Jude’s novena.
 
It’s not my fault…
I said nothing about the OF in my post, did I? See, you’re making unnecessary presumptions.

Canon Law allows me to go where I feel there is a spiritual advantage. If I want to drive an hour to want to hear a magnificent pipe organ I’m in effect telling my local parish their music is deficient from my standpoint. But according to your earlier post, I could not hear the pipe organ because you can make a claim that I see the local liturgy as being somewhat deficient, no?
 
Thinking that the current sacraments have some deficiencies does not make me either a heretic or a schismatic. I have the right to prefer and be attached to the traditional sacraments. And any rational person would have reasons for their preferences and attachments.
A rational person would not say that recieving the sacrament one way is a legitimate means by which God communicates his grace to each of us individually through his Holy Church and then turn around in the next sentance and state that it is also somehow deficient in doing so.

A rational person would recognize his correct place in the order of creation - that God is the creator of the universe, that the Church is God’s legitimate instrument of salvation on earth, and that we have less merit than a rock because the rock doesn’t sin while we offend God every day. Such a rational person would recognize himself as a dog who eats the scraps off the master’s table and would not presume to state that a legitimate sacrament is also dificient, let alone demand or even prefer that those scraps be fed to him according to his own preference.

A rational person would not presume to assert his rights before God, nor before God’s legitimate authority on earth, for when he stood in God’s presence he whould realize that he doesn’t even have the right to exist.

-Tim-
 
Well, yes, but that doesn’t mean that you have to believe that another choice is invalid.
I have never said nor believed nor entertained the thought that the OF was invalid. I’m not sure why this keeps coming up as I never said it nor implied it. The OF is valid and was promulgated licitly and validly by a valid Pope.
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Did my Irish grandmother believe that there was something wrong or deficient about my Italian grandmother’s novenas? Of course not. But she still preferred St. Jude’s novena.
Unfortunately many people see a preference for something else as a slap against them. Some will even resort to hurtful name-calling. Human nature is what it is.
 
A rational person would recognize his correct place in the order of creation - that God is the creator of the universe, that the Church is God’s legitimate instrument of salvation on earth, and that we have less merit than a rock because the rock doesn’t sin while we offend God every day. Such a rational person would recognize himself as a dog who eats the scraps off the master’s table and would not presume to state that a legitimate sacrament is also dificient, let alone demand or even prefer that those scraps be fed to him according to his own preference.
First of all, the Sacraments are NOT scraps off of the master’s table. I find it offensive that you would compare the means of grace and salvation, the most beautiful thing this side of heaven, to scraps. When we ask for bread, does God give us a stone? No, he gives us the Bread of Life, which is no way a “scrap.”

Secondly, I have abundantly explained what I meant by “deficient,” quoting His Holiness as my evidence. I agree with the Pope’s assessment of the situation, including the pain that deformation of liturgy causes. Do you?
A rational person would not presume to assert his rights before God, nor before God’s legitimate authority on earth, for he stands in the presence of God he would realize that he doesn’t even have the right to exist.
I am only asserting the rights that God has given to me through His legitimate authority on earth. The Pope said I can prefer the EF and I can ask for it. I will go with His Holiness on this matter. He is, after all, the Vicar of Christ.
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From what I’ve read of EcceAgnusDei’s statement regarding defficiency, it is in the context of spiritual nourishment. He may have found a plethora of abuses within the variety of parishes. He may find the EF to be more close to the sacred than the OF. It’s his preference, in this preference is how he sees defficiency.

Am I correct in this EcceAgnusDei?

I don’t see how he is in anyway questioning the very form of the OF. So this interpretation is beyond me.

God Bless,

Christopher.
 
Well, seeing as the Pope points it out from his personal experience, I would think it would be ok for me to point out the same thing, too.
Except the pope did not state it the way you chose to do so.
I did qualify my statement. I will qualify it every time in the future.
Yes you did, when you were called on the error.

I am happy that you will continue to do so in the future.
Because when we have a preference, we have reasons for that preference (unless, of course, we are irrational children who say “just cuz”). Asking someone to have a preference and not a reason is asking them to think and act like a child.
Yes but we do not always have to give our reasons as the reasons do not matter. Also when we do give the reasons we should not misstate them as if they are absolutes that everyone should have.
And yes, both forms are equally valid. Both forms are equally efficacious IF celebrated according to the rubrics, the instructions, and the mind of the Church as dictated in Her documents, including those of Vatican II concerning the liturgy.
Again, yes. The EF is just as deficient when not properly celebrated.
 
From what I’ve read of EcceAgnusDei’s statement regarding defficiency, it is in the context of spiritual nourishment. He may have found a plethora of abuses within the variety of parishes. He may find the EF to be more close to the sacred than the OF. It’s his preference, in this preference is how he sees defficiency.

Am I correct in this EcceAgnusDei?

I don’t see how he is in anyway questioning the very form of the OF. So this interpretation is beyond me.

God Bless,

Christopher.
Yes, Christopher, you understand me. Thank you. I had no idea there would be such a fire storm.
btw, I kindly suggest you consider not rising to the bait here. The rules are pretty strict and it’s possible to be lead into breaking them without intent on your part to do so.
I just noticed that you added this to your post. You offer me sound advice and I will take it. I do, however, hope that baiting people to break rules is frowned upon as well. Just to be clear, I have had no intention to break any rules, nor do I think I have, but prudence is a virtue.

And having said this, I will end my participation in this discussion. We are WAY off topic anyways. I believe I have left my position clear now. I apologize if I became a bit emotional – I was simply frustrated at being called a heretic and a schismatic when I love and adore both our Holy Mother Church and our Sovereign Pontiff.

May God bless you all and may Our Lady protect us all in unity in Her most beautiful and immaculate Heart.
  • PAX
 
Heterical? That depend on what the poster means by “deficient,” doesn’t it? I think the Pauline sacraments are valid and can be beautiful in their way, but are sometimes deficient in clarity – the wording has ambiguities that can be easily exploited by the heterodox. Conversely, the traditional sacraments so clearly express in words what they signify that they are a catechesis in themselves. I don’t think I’ve said anything heterical, have I? But perhaps “deficient” is a loaded word, insinuating more than the poster meant by it.

At any rate, I admit that we’re getting off-topic and that a real discussion of this is beyond the bounds allowed by CAF.
So then by your argument, deficient in clarity, when you have people attending the EF who do not speak Latin, does that make the EF deficient? As how can it be a catechesis when one does not understand a word being said?
 
I have never said nor believed nor entertained the thought that the OF was invalid. I’m not sure why this keeps coming up as I never said it nor implied it. The OF is valid and was promulgated licitly and validly by a valid Pope.
  • PAX
Sorry, I was using invalid in a very different way and didn’t even think about that possible context. Suffice it to say that I wasn’t accusing you of saying that the OF Mass was invalid at all.
 
Sounds like a de facto schism already in your heart, sad to say.
32 posts later and the topic of discussion has been completely forgotten. Thanks for derailing what was actually a pretty good thread.
 
Is it common at this site for this to happen? I saw someone mention staying within site rules regarding the two forms and it seems that whenever there hope in this area that it is squished by accusations and assumptions and personal attacks. Is this the norm?
 
Its interesting that you bring that up. I was doing some reading last night and came across this in the Rule of Saint Benedict:

That is a heavy burden to bear and helps a bit to put things into context regarding how Bishop Fellay may be feeling. Also, it explains a bit how you are likely feeling at being the superior of the FFV.
Being a superior is not a job that anyone with a rational mind wants. Ultimately, the person who goes to hell if everyone under you fails, is you. The Church holds superiors morally and personally responsible for guiding their subject toward the Church, not away. If you guide them away, you’re more culpable than they are. They are culpable for following you. No one has the right to act contrary to the Holy See on such a matter. The Holy See is not asking people to sin. The person in charge is responsible for misleading, which is a greater moral charge.

For that reason, in some communities, such as the FFV, once the superior speaks, the conversation is over. Too many opinions only create confusion. The superior has the power to let the conversation go as long as he feels that it’s productive and then bring it to a close. His decision is final. He has the authority to overrule the vote the community except in a chapter. But if you’re voting on whether to have an EF or an OF, that’s not a capitular decision. The superior makes the final choice based on what he believes to be the best for his community. If he makes the choice knowing that it’s not good for the community, he sins gravely.
I certainly hope there is not a schism.
At the end of the day, there are going to be some who will walk away from the Vatican and will be declared to be in schism. But if Bishop Fellay rules that the Society will agree to the Vatican’s terms, that number should be very small.

If it goes the other way, where the SSPX decides against the Preamble, then people in your situation will be forced into a moral dilemma. You go with the Church, regardless of the masses in your area or you cut yourself off from Peter in order to attend a mass that you prefer.

I know my decision already. I will go where ever Peter goes.
The SSPX offer the only traditional sacraments within 300 miles of me. My Bishop, and the Bishop of the neighboring diocese, are extremely antagonistic towards anything vaguely traditional, despite the Motu Proprio. I know this from personal experience and by talking to priests as well. One priest had to explain what he was “up to” when he started chanting the Agnus Dei in Latin. The SSPX offers me an oasis of reverence and tradition in a desert of liturgical abuse and irreverence. If the SSPX are declared schismatic, there will be no EF for anyone of us in this area to go to.
St. Pius X, pray for us. St. Joseph, pray for us. Blessed Virgin Mary, intercede for us.
The problem with your wording here is not your preference, but the tone is condescending. You may not be hearing yourself. No individual Catholic is an arbiter of reverence. If something is objectively against the rules, then it’s against the rules. Even then, some things are against the rules, but the infraction is so small, that it takes nothing away from the reverence of the mass. For example, the priest does not purify the chalice and paten at the altar. Against the rules? Yes. Takes away from the reverence of the mass? No. It’s not part of the mass. It’s simply something that has to be done, because you can’t leave the chalice and paten with the Eucharistic elements on them.

The other problem is the use of the word deficient. The Holy Father and the SCDW have never used the word deficient, because the sacraments either are or are not. There is not such thing as a sacrament that is more efficient here and less efficient there. The Holy Father used the correct wording. Some people took the liberty of getting creative. That creativity does not take away from the efficaciousness of the sacrament. It is confusing and can be disrespectful to the sacrament and the congregation, but the sacrament loses nothing. I believe that’s where the thread went over the cliff.

We need to learn to speak as the Church speaks and always use her wording, not our own. I cringe when I see or hear people say NO or TLM. That’s not how the Church refers to the two forms of the mass. Novus Ordo was the subtitle of the first missal in the Pauline Form. It was never the name of the form. It was always the Roman Mass, as in the Latin Church. TLM, doesn’t say much. Traditional Latin Mass or Tridentine Latin Mass. There is no such a mass. There is only one mass, many rites and within those rites there are forms. In the Latin Church we have several rites. In the Roman Rite we have two forms, the Extraordinary and the Ordinary. Within those forms we have less familiar forms that are not important for this discussion. It’s simpler to say the EF and OF. We often set ourselves up for situations by using labels. People who say, “the old mass” drive me crazy too. I didn’t know that we had traded it in as if it were a car.
 
The value of keeping all of these discussions private is that both sides can modify their former positions on certain points without inviting the scrutiny and criticism that could come from both pro and con sympathizers inside and outside of the Society.
Someone of some important said something similar to this. He blamed it on the SSPX laity. I’ll have to paraphrase it. The laity is not part of the SSPX, but it is trying to exercise influence over the SSPX as if the Society was accountable to them. This creates an even more stressful situation for the SSPX clergy.

I can understand that. If people were telling me that they’re going to hell, because I’m going to do X, Y and Z, I would be terrified of messing things up.
I am sure that the rudiments of the canonical solution is also important concerning the Society and those traditional orders who are attached to the Society (Dominicans, Benedictines, etc). My understanding is that Rome has provided an agreeable solution along those lines. So if indeed both parties are on the verge of an agreement, some of the finer details of the canonical solution must be clearly understood and agreed to in advance of the announcement of an accord. Among these details would be the status of the independent priests who are not part of the SSPX but who rely on the them for Confirmation and chrism, for example. It would seem that the personal prelature, if that is the structure, would need to accommodate priests who were not SSPX and do not intend to join the order. And then, there is the discussion of titular titles of SSPX Bishops who retire.
That’s a big canonical problem, because as far as the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, the SSPX does not exist. Correct me if I’m wrong. I understand that it was erected as a diocesan institute and it was later suppressed. It then ceases to exist.

If it is still a diocesan institute, then communities like the Dominicans, Franciscans and Benedictines cannot unite with them, because these are religious orders of Pontifical Right. Their members do not have the freedom to join any society outside of their community. In addition, if they are still a society of diocesan right, they will have to ask every bishop whey they have a house for permission to remain there. They are not exempt from the authority of the local bishop.

If they have lost their charter, then they are not a canonical institute. Plans would have to be made to erect them as such. That can take years. It took the Transalpine Redeptorists a year before they could accept new members. The constitutions had to be reviewed by the local bishop, then sent to the Signatura and finally to the Sacred Congregation. The only way to bypass all of that is for the pope to approve their constitutions. Which has happened in the past.

As to independent priests, I’m not sure what you mean. Canon Law is very clear that every priest, religious and layman must be incardinated into a diocese, a religious community, a society of apostolic life, a secular institute or an autonomous monastery. There are no independent priests, unless they’re schismatic. If they’re not schismatic, they have to belong to someone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Getting back on topic, what does everyone think will happen tomorrow? I’m hoping for full regularization, but I don’t think we will know until sometime next month.
32 posts later and the topic of discussion has been completely forgotten. Thanks for derailing what was actually a pretty good thread.
 
Getting back on topic, what does everyone think will happen tomorrow? I’m hoping for full regularization, but I don’t think we will know until sometime next month.
I feel both ways. I have felt hopeful before, for years actually, and been let down so part of me thinks “I’ll believe it when I see it” But then again I have to think that the recent dialogue between the two is encouraging. The Church has really handled this in the best possible way and in a way that involves so much patience and gentle guiding that it should be an example for parenting a difficult child. However, I think all signs are point to a resolution one way or the other very soon. I think I heard that the man in charge of these negotiations tendered his resignation and the Pope said he would consider it after Easter, and low and behold here we are with a hope of a resolution.
I always pray for reconciliation of any group but especially a group that could have the potential to help the whole Church right now. They need the Church and we need the passion. Its a win win if they can just be obedient. What an example to the rest of us if they can put pride aside and be obedient until death as is our calling.
 
Is the Doctrinal Preamble available online, at all? I would like to see what specific points are controversial for the SSPX.

Either way, I think it is fair to say that the Church needs the SSPX, and the SSPX needs the Church. To rupture the tie would hurt both parties. But of course, my loyalty would remain with the Church in Rome.
 
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