SSPX

[YoungTradCath]

I thought that was odd too, when I read it. Still, I would be thrilled if the got a personal prelature.

I hear that they would hate to have a prelature, since that requires that they have the permission of the bishop to operate in a diocese (but no other permission past that), as per Canon Law. Of course, the Pope can completely ignore whatever Law it pleaseth His Holiness, or he could create a different structure for them.

 

[TrueLight]

I hear that they would hate to have a prelature, since that requires that they have the permission of the bishop to operate in a diocese (but no other permission past that), as per Canon Law.

You can imagine how that would go.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I thought that was odd too, when I read it. Still, I would be thrilled if the got a personal prelature.

Me and you both, Cider. But the practical part of me, for all the intricacies discussed so far in this thread, is lead to believe that even if there is an agreement - it will not be a “we have an agreement!” moment. But a more gradual, “we have a foundation”, positive-sounding series of pronouncements that will culminate in a reconciliation. We should perhaps even be prepared for a few more minor (undisclosed) snags that will need to be ironed out.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I hear that they would hate to have a prelature, since that requires that they have the permission of the bishop to operate in a diocese (but no other permission past that), as per Canon Law. Of course, the Pope can completely ignore whatever Law it pleaseth His Holiness, or he could create a different structure for them.

I understand that they have gotten past that a while ago.

 

[giuseppeTO]

If the SSPX come home, will the FSSP disappear?

I don’t think so. The difficulty might be that both organizations would be theoretically drawing from the same seminary candidate pool and faithful pool, so to speak. The SSPX usually has schools affiliated with their chapels also. That is not to say that the FSSP could not do the same, but it might be more difficult to launch with the diocese involvement.

If the FSSP found it more difficult to be invited into diocese and the SSPX had an arrangement whereby they needed to consult with but not ultimately gain the approval of the ordinary, that would work in the SSPX favor in the long run.

Of course, the FSSP is a part of the diocese and supports it financially. So a bishop who is considering the request to institute the EF in his diocese, may choose to invite the FSSP in to have more control over the situation and benefit from the situation by perhaps saving a particular unused church from being sold. This would especially be true if the SSPX could eventually come in anyway and not benefit the diocese in the same way.

 

[jwinch2]

I don’t know Jason. Having been associated with the Society for several years, I rarely have seen the clergy swayed by the faithful. It is more the opposite case where the clergy is treated in a more deferential way and are very firm in their convictions. I would be surprised to see the mind of a priest changed by one or a group of his chapel. My experience is that, like in any parish, there is both ends of the spectrum concerning these issues. However, priests are generally in lock step with their superiors.

That is not to say that there are no exceptions … but I believe they are just that - exceptions more than the rule.

Good to hear. You are much closer to it than I am obviously.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t think so. The difficulty might be that both organizations would be theoretically drawing from the same seminary candidate pool and faithful pool, so to speak.

ICKSP also draws from this pool.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I copied this from another SSPX-friendly board just to show some of things being said elsewhere.

There are quite a few of us who have been with SSPX since it’s onset in the United States and we will help to steady the boat if and when the SSPX decides to submit to Rome. We have been with them thru thick and thin and we are in favor of a positive outcome. PRAY GOD.

 

[giuseppeTO]

ICKSP also draws from this pool.

Good point Byz.

 

[JReducation]

Oh that would be incredible, if what the article claims is true.

If the SSPX says that it signed, it must be true. The question is, “Did Bishop Fellay answer the questions the way that the Vatican wanted them answered?” If he did, this is over. Thank God.

On the other hand, if he responded and signed, but gave the wrong answers, it’s also over, but not the way that we want it to be.

I hope that it will come down to settling the SSPX and their friends in an personal prelature… I can’t imagine the SSPX and its followers blending into mainstream Catholicism. It did not work for Opus Dei, which is much more accommodating and which did not have bishops.

The down side of a personal prelature is that Bishop Fellay or whomever is the Superior General would not necessarily be the prelate. The Society is one thing and the prelature is another. Like the Opus Dei, the SSPX and its followers will not be allowed to proselytize. Even if they do things differently, as many of us do, they will have to do what the rest of us do, “Think it, but don’t say it.” All issues and questions will be dealt with in secret meetings behind closed doors. Notice, you never see or hear that the Jesuits, Franciscans, Opus Dei or anyone else is having a discussion with the Vatican about an area of disagreement. They have those discussions, but they may never include the laity or be made known to the laity, except that which the Church wants to be known. The good side is that the people whom we serve are not involved in these issues, so they maintain good relations with the Vatican and the institutes that serve them.

Opus Dei has the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. It has a Superior General, but he is not the prelate. Only the clergy answer to him. There is a prelate appointed by the pope and the superior and the laity answer to the prelate. The prelate answers to the pope. It’s almost as if the pope had his own little diocese on the side that someone runs for him.

The bad thing is that the group is isolated. The good things are:

a. Everyone is out of everyone else’s hair, because there is no more reason to debate. Rome won’t put up with it.

b. As time passes, people forget their anger and mellow out toward each other.

c. Those who have never had contact with the SSPX won’t even know it’s there and if they discover it, they’re not in danger of schism.

d. Finally, relationships develop and there is an increase in trust.

I remember when Opus Dei was looked upon with suspicion. Bishops cringed. Religious superiors threatened anyone who had anything to do with them. Liberals called them the Pope’s Mafia and other nasty names.

Gradually, all of that was forgotten. The Opus Dei took up The Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome, which today gives the Angelicum and Gregorian a run for their money and has the best school of spirituality in the world. I was the first member of my community to go there for a doctorate. At the time, there was no school of spirituality. It was a little department and we took most of our classes at the Angelicum with the Dominicans. Today, it’s blossomed and is well respected. No one ever mentions Opus Dei, except in bad movies. Their theologians hold key posts at the Vatican, including in this dialogue.

I predict that if the SSPX becomes a prelature, it’s future would be a happier one, not only for its priests, but also for the laymen who are attached to them. People can even get the sacraments from them legally and all of those who have received the sacraments illegally, will be legalized. They will still have to get their faculties from the local bishop, because everyone gets their faculties from the local bishop, be you secular or religious. The only exception is for friars and monks who run their own houses. They get their faculties from the superior of the house. Evereyone else, even in their own houses, must get faculties from the bishop. However, if you are canonically erected, the bishop cannot deny you faculties unless you’ve done something wrong.

For the bishops it would be great, because they would not have to answer for the priests of the Society or for their finances. They would be treated as if they were another diocese. All complaints, lawsuits, buying and selling of property and financial problems have to be dealt with by the prelature. The bishops only have to grant faculties. That’s easy.

It would be the perfect end to a rather imperfect chapter in the Church’s history.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

 

[TrueLight]

I

If the FSSP found it more difficult to be invited into diocese and the SSPX had an arrangement whereby they needed to consult with but not ultimately gain the approval of the ordinary, that would work in the SSPX favor in the long run.

And that would be quite unfair.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

When should know by?
I keep praying for it to end well!

 

[jwinch2]

The laity that attend mass there are overwhelmingly Catholic.

I never said they weren’t. I said that in general, the laity involved with SSPX tend to be more vocal and strident in their critique of Rome, (including the OF of the Mass, and Vatican II) then the clergy. I am hardly the first person on here to make that observation, including persons who frequent SSPX Masses.

There is nothing for them to do to “come home”.

That remains to be seen. Even if there aren’t for those who come back following an agreement, there likely would be if SSPX normalizes their standing and some choose to reject whatever agreement is made. In that situation, it would be far easier for the laity to return then it would be for the clergy, which was my point.

If you actually think that the laity have power to sway over the priests of SSPX then you clearly haven’t spent much if any time with them.

I don’t think of it as power but rather influence. I don’t know whether they have the influence to affect the clergy or not. Most of the time, probably not. However, priests are human too and can be influenced by others, particularly if they already have concerns about an agreement, regardless of its form.

I hope that does not happen.

 

[ProVobis]

If the SSPX come home, will the FSSP disappear?

“Come home”?

Well, it certainly would blur the distinction between the two. But then the ICRSS is distinct from the FSSP as well, though both are in full communion with Rome.

 

[TrueLight]

I never said they weren’t. I said that in general, the laity involved with SSPX tend to be more vocal and strident in their critique of Rome, (including the OF of the Mass, and Vatican II) then the clergy. I am hardly the first person on here to make that observation, including persons who frequent SSPX Masses.

I wonder about that though as I have heard SSPX priests criticize the Mass and Vatican II. The laity are getting the teaching from somewhere.

 

[jwinch2]

I wonder about that though as I have heard SSPX priests criticize the Mass and Vatican II. The laity are getting the teaching from somewhere.

Or, those particular laity have been critical from the get go and gravitated towards a place where those feelings were not as frowned upon. Its a bit of a chicken or the egg situation I suppose.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think so. The difficulty might be that both organizations would be theoretically drawing from the same seminary candidate pool and faithful pool, so to speak. The SSPX usually has schools affiliated with their chapels also. That is not to say that the FSSP could not do the same, but it might be more difficult to launch with the diocese involvement.

If the FSSP found it more difficult to be invited into diocese and the SSPX had an arrangement whereby they needed to consult with but not ultimately gain the approval of the ordinary, that would work in the SSPX favor in the long run.

Of course, the FSSP is a part of the diocese and supports it financially. So a bishop who is considering the request to institute the EF in his diocese, may choose to invite the FSSP in to have more control over the situation and benefit from the situation by perhaps saving a particular unused church from being sold. This would especially be true if the SSPX could eventually come in anyway and not benefit the diocese in the same way.

And that would be quite unfair.

Actually it is quite fair. It’s called canonical place. There are different kinds of institutes in the Church and depending on the degree of consecration they have different rights and obligations.

Those with the most rights are always going to be the monastic communities. Their consecration is higher than that of any other Catholic The Church hold them in a place of honor.

Then there are the friars. Then the secular orders. Then the congregations. Then the secular institutes and then the societies of apostolic life. Societies of apostolic life, such as the FSSP are not consecrated at all. They are of the world. The must submit to the local bishop like any other secular Catholic. He invites them and he gives them permission to do whatever they ask to do or he denies it.

Here is the glitch. The SSPX is in the same canonical place as the FSSP. If it comes back as a personal prelature, then it is no longer in that same place. They remain in the world. The will not be consecrated. But they will be given all of the protection that is given to monks and friars, because they are under the protective wings of the Holy Father. Their canonical place is different. This gives them different rights. It’s as if they were “honorary friars”. There is no such thing, but you get the idea.

In that case, they would still have to get faculties from the local bishop, just as the Opus Dei does. But they are governed by a prelate, not by the local bishop. The local bishop simply grants faculties and turns them loose. If they mess up, the reports it to their prelate. He deals with them as if they were friars. That’s called canonical place.

Prelature was created for the Opus Dei, which Bl. John Paul wanted to protect and isolate at the same time. It works for them. They have all of the protection and separation that we friars have, but none of the obligations. Of course, we don’t mind sharing our canonical place with them. Big deal.

I wonder about that though as I have heard SSPX priests criticize the Mass and Vatican II. The laity are getting the teaching from somewhere.

If they come back, that will have to stop. The bishops and religious superiors are not going to put up with that. They will file formal complaints with the prelate. They can’t do it now, because to whom are they going to complain? Bishop Fellay is not a canonical authority. Once they have a canonical place, they will also have a canonical authority over them. That person has to hear out his equals, which will be the bishops and superiors general. He cannot ignore them. He will have to reign in his people.

This happened with Opus Dei. St. Jose Maria Escriva tore into his people when he started to get complaints from superiors general and bishops. They even refused admission to some of the more radical elements that were causing problems for the Opus Dei. Things settled down nicely. Today, who doesn’t love Opus Dei? The nose makers are usually a minority. Most Catholics are simple people who want to go to mass, confession and raise good families. They’re not interested in competing with the parish up the street or down the street.

It is one thing to report a breach in rules and another to be belligerent. I always say, we are part of the Church Militant, not the Church Belligerent.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

 

[TrueLight]

Actually it is quite fair. It’s called canonical place. There are different kinds of institutes in the Church and depending on the degree of consecration they have different rights and obligations.

This is the way I see it. The FSSP came out of the SSPX. What is the difference between them really except that one is irregular and one is not? One is more vociferous about their VII objections than the other. The FSSP has played along to get along.

So this is going to turn into a prodigal son situation I guess.

I always say, we are part of the Church Militant, not the Church Belligerent.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

You just started saying that. I like it a lot though.

 

[JReducation]

This is the way I see it. The FSSP came out of the SSPX. What is the difference between them really except that one is irregular and one is not? One is more vociferous about their VII objections than the other. The FSSP has played along to get along.

So this is going to turn into a prodigal son situation I guess.

The difference in their way of life is non existent, because they are both priests of the world and they both belong to a clerical society.

The difference is going to be in their place in the Church. The SSPX is going to be in the same place as friars, which is one step below monks. They won’t have the same obligations that we do or the same degree of consecration. In fact, no consecration at all. But they will have the same rights that we have.

The reason for doing this is to isolate them. This allows them to be part of the Church and at the same time, they are in a group by themselves. Just as you don’t see friars running up and down your street, you won’t see SSPX priests in and out of your parishes, as you would FSSP priests. They will have to limit themselves to the institutions that belong to the SSPX. They can’t put up an institution where ever they want as they have been doing. They will have to get permission from their prelate.

The FSSP, on the other hand, won’t have the freedom from the bishops that the SSPX and friars enjoy, but the FSSP has the freedom to work in any diocese where the bishop welcomes them, without having to get permission from a prelate and they don’t have to remain isolated. They do many things with the rest of us.

You may not see it, because you don’t live in their house, but there is a constant flow between the FSSP priests and diocesan priests, regular priests and religious brothers. They come to us and we go to them. They often do workshops for us on how to celebrate the EF. Religious often do seminars for them on the spiritual life and on Christian Spirituality, which is the forte of religious. Then there are fun things too.

A prelature, it’s like its own diocese with its own culture. It’s not like being stationed in NYC where all of us go up to the Cathedral for a papal mass, whether we’re FSSP, OP, O’Carm, FFV, OFM, OSA, etc. The SSPX would probably decline the invitation, because they do not feel part of the Church in NYC. They see themselves apart.

That will eventually break down and there will be more unity. But it’s a good place to start the re-entry, because it’s very safe.

You just started saying that. I like it a lot though.

Actually, I’ve always said that to the novices when they criticize or complain. I had never used it here. The novices now know that when I say that, it means, “Stand down soldier.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[anp1215]

I am praying for this rupture to be healed before it is too late.

I would love to attend the SSPX chapel that is only a few minutes from here. I like to attend the EF occasionally but the only other churches that offer it are farther away.

What a crazy feeling it would be to walk in there after it has been there for so long.