SSPX

[TrueLight]

The difference in their way of life is non existent, because they are both priests of the world and they both belong to a clerical society.

The difference is going to be in their place in the Church. The SSPX is going to be in the same place as friars, which is one step below monks. They won’t have the same obligations that we do or the same degree of consecration. In fact, no consecration at all. But they will have the same rights that we have.

The reason for doing this is to isolate them. This allows them to be part of the Church and at the same time, they are in a group by themselves. Just as you don’t see friars running up and down your street, you won’t see SSPX priests in and out of your parishes, as you would FSSP priests. They will have to limit themselves to the institutions that belong to the SSPX. They can’t put up an institution where ever they want as they have been doing. They will have to get permission from their prelate.

The FSSP, on the other hand, won’t have the freedom from the bishops that the SSPX and friars enjoy, but the FSSP has the freedom to work in any diocese where the bishop welcomes them, without having to get permission from a prelate and they don’t have to remain isolated. They do many things with the rest of us.

You may not see it, because you don’t live in their house, but there is a constant flow between the FSSP priests and diocesan priests, regular priests and religious brothers. They come to us and we go to them. They often do workshops for us on how to celebrate the EF. Religious often do seminars for them on the spiritual life and on Christian Spirituality, which is the forte of religious. Then there are fun things too.

A prelature, it’s like its own diocese with its own culture. It’s not like being stationed in NYC where all of us go up to the Cathedral for a papal mass, whether we’re FSSP, OP, O’Carm, FFV, OFM, OSA, etc. The SSPX would probably decline the invitation, because they do not feel part of the Church in NYC. They see themselves apart.

Thank you. I see what you are saying.

 

[ProVobis]

I knew there were a lot of FSSPX chapels but I didn’t realize almost everyone lives so close to one. If nothing else, they seemed to have chosen their locations well.

 

[Moore11]

I knew there were a lot of FSSPX chapels but I didn’t realize almost everyone lives so close to one. If nothing else, they seemed to have chosen their locations well.

Well, I live in a western state. There is a SSPX chapel 20 minutes from my house. Our home parish is 20 minutes away as well. I have never met a SSPX person nor been to a SSPX Mass. I have only been to one EF and it was in Rome. People like me that are curious and who are frustrated with the 5 parishes in our hometowns might really enjoy being able to see the “other side” for a change. I have addressed the MP in our dioceses before. 200 miles and 5 hours from any significant population center.

 

[JReducation]

I knew there were a lot of FSSPX chapels but I didn’t realize almost everyone lives so close to one. If nothing else, they seemed to have chosen their locations well.

I think that they’re very good at choosing locations. They’re just not too good at getting along with their neighbors. Some of their priests have said some very nasty things to bishop in their own diocese. You don’t go into someone’s home and bash them. That is sure to stop once this reconciliation is complete. No bishop is going to continue to put up with it.

My good friend Fr. X, who is an SSPX priest describes some of his confreres as “the kids with the substitute teacher.” He says that some of them (not many) take advantage that the bishops can’t slam them and that the Vatican is trying to be lenient to bring them home. They behave like kids with a substitute teacher. I liked that analogy.

Well, I live in a western state. There is a SSPX chapel 20 minutes from my house. Our home parish is 20 minutes away as well. I have never met a SSPX person nor been to a SSPX Mass. I have only been to one EF and it was in Rome. People like me that are curious and who are frustrated with the 5 parishes in our hometowns might really enjoy being able to see the “other side” for a change. I have addressed the MP in our dioceses before. 200 miles and 5 hours from any significant population center.

The greatest challenge that bishops are having with the MP is finding priests who want to celebrate the EF. In our diocese they had 7 ordinations. Everyone knows how to celebrate the EF. They had the Canons of St. John Cantius teach them. None of the 7 want to celebrate it. Bishops and religious superiors cannot force them to do so. You can’t force a priest to celebrate any mass.

There are some religious priests who know how to celebrate it, but the superiors will not allow them to celebrate it for the laity. They can only celebrate it for their community. In religious houses the issue of unity is a big one.

With the number of diocesan priests who want to celebrate the EF being very low and the few religious who are allowed to celebrate in public, the pool is not very big. The ED Commission can’t seem to help. It has no authority to order a priest to celebrate mass. Not even the pope can command that.

What we are seeing is an increasing number of newly ordained priests who celebrate the OF by the book. The silliness seems to be dying down in seminaries.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Moore11]

I think that they’re very good at choosing locations. They’re just not too good at getting along with their neighbors. Some of their priests have said some very nasty things to bishop in their own diocese. You don’t go into someone’s home and bash them. That is sure to stop once this reconciliation is complete. No bishop is going to continue to put up with it.

My good friend Fr. X, who is an SSPX priest describes some of his confreres as “the kids with the substitute teacher.” He says that some of them (not many) take advantage that the bishops can’t slam them and that the Vatican is trying to be lenient to bring them home. They behave like kids with a substitute teacher. I liked that analogy.

The greatest challenge that bishops are having with the MP is finding priests who want to celebrate the EF. In our diocese they had 7 ordinations. Everyone knows how to celebrate the EF. They had the Canons of St. John Cantius teach them. None of the 7 want to celebrate it. Bishops and religious superiors cannot force them to do so. You can’t force a priest to celebrate any mass.

There are some religious priests who know how to celebrate it, but the superiors will not allow them to celebrate it for the laity. They can only celebrate it for their community. In religious houses the issue of unity is a big one.

With the number of diocesan priests who want to celebrate the EF being very low and the few religious who are allowed to celebrate in public, the pool is not very big. The ED Commission can’t seem to help. It has no authority to order a priest to celebrate mass. Not even the pope can command that.

What we are seeing is an increasing number of newly ordained priests who celebrate the OF by the book. The silliness seems to be dying down in seminaries.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yes, things are getting better but we have several priests in the valley I live in that could celebrate the EF .(all within a nice close distance.) However it is offered 5 hours away on the second Sunday of the month. Things are getting better though. This Pope is awesome!!!

 

[JReducation]

Yes, things are getting better but we have several priests in the valley I live in that could celebrate the EF .(all within a nice close distance.) However it is offered 5 hours away on the second Sunday of the month. Things are getting better though. This Pope is awesome!!!

The part that Traditionalist Catholics have to accept is that the Church does not have the power or the authority to command a priest to celebrate any mass in any form. That’s why SP and UE are written in persuasive language and not as laws.

Even if you have five priests who can celebrate the EF, don’t allow yourself to think poorly of them because they won’t do it. They have no obligation to do it, not even a pastoral obligation. It is the bishop’s job to try to find someone and if he can’t find someone, then he has to ask ED to help him. If ED can’t find someone, then it is what it is. These five priests are exercising their right to choose which form they celebrate. We can’t hold it against anyone who exercises his canonical rights.

That’s the way that sacraments work. You must have form, matter and intent. Intent becomes questionable, when you order a priest to celebrate a mass against his will. It raises all kinds of red flags. That’s why the Church does not make it a law that you must celebrate the EF when requested.

The best answer that any priest can give to his bishop or his superior is a very simple one, “It does not meet my spiritual needs.”

Once he says that, the discussion is over. The priest’s spiritual needs come first, because he cannot give what he does not have.

We have to be patient.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

 

[Moore11]

The part that Traditionalist Catholics have to accept is that the Church does not have the power or the authority to command a priest to celebrate any mass in any form. That’s why SP and UE are written in persuasive language and not as laws.

Even if you have five priests who can celebrate the EF, don’t allow yourself to think poorly of them because they won’t do it. They have no obligation to do it, not even a pastoral obligation. It is the bishop’s job to try to find someone and if he can’t find someone, then he has to ask ED to help him. If ED can’t find someone, then it is what it is. These five priests are exercising their right to choose which form they celebrate. We can’t hold it against anyone who exercises his canonical rights.

That’s the way that sacraments work. You must have form, matter and intent. Intent becomes questionable, when you order a priest to celebrate a mass against his will. It raises all kinds of red flags. That’s why the Church does not make it a law that you must celebrate the EF when requested.

The best answer that any priest can give to his bishop or his superior is a very simple one, “It does not meet my spiritual needs.”

Once he says that, the discussion is over. The priest’s spiritual needs come first, because he cannot give what he does not have.

We have to be patient.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

I don’t want to make this a big issue because it is not, but it isn’t that they don’t want to. They do want to.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I don’t want to make this a big issue because it is not, but it isn’t that they don’t want to. They do want to.

Then what is getting in the way of them celebrating it? No one can stop them.

 

[Moore11]

Then what is getting in the way of them celebrating it? No one can stop them.

Its complicated and I don’t want to overstep any bounds here. The main point that I am making is that for those of us who would like to see if the EF is something we like, the idea of the SSPX being a legitimate option is exciting and something to think about. However, with my three noisy kids and lack of latin, and lack of a Catholic upbringing the EF may not be an option for a while. But there may be some who will like it.
I dont think it is coincidence that the SSPX sets up shop in some pretty interesting areas.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t want to make this a big issue because it is not, but it isn’t that they don’t want to. They do want to.

Then what is getting in the way of them celebrating it? No one can stop them.

There are some rules that do have to be met.

1. If they are religious, they cannot celebrate it without the permission of their superior.
2. If they are diocesan they cannot celebrate it, if it interferes with the normal parish schedule.

Number two gets tricky. While it is true that bishops cannot prohibit the celebration of the EF, the bishop remains the highest ranking liturgical authority in the diocese. The pope does not overstep this authority. The pastor must guarantee to the bishop that it meets a need in the parish without sacrificing the parish.

Numbers are an important part of this situation. If the priest already has two masses and they are a large groups, he cannot drop one of them to take on a small group for an EF. It’s not the size of the group asking for the EF that is the problem, but the size of the group that would be sacrificed. The EF can be celebrated if there are only five people who want it and there is a priest available. But you cannot drop a full church to celebrate for 25 people.

The Holy Father very deliberately used the term “extraordinary” to send a subtle signal to bishops, superiors, priests and lawyers that this is not to be understood as the norm. This way, he made the Traditionalists happy and he did not get into trouble with the bishops. He gets into trouble with the bishops if he creates a situation that is untenable. Then they will look to him to give them a solution. He didn’t want to corner himself that way. That’s why he uses the term “extraordinary” and he tells the bishops to refer their inconveniences to the ED Commission, not to him. He can’t solve everyone’s problems. It’s humanly impossible.

In Canon Law, if something is not the norm, then it does not have to be done. It may be done. This gives the bishop some control. Ultimately, the bishop is responsible for making sure that as many people are covered as possible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Loveolivia]

http://www.castoffdebt.comlol

 

[YoungTradCath]

http://www.castoffdebt.comlol

 

[TrueLight]

The Holy Father very deliberately used the term “extraordinary” to send a subtle signal to bishops, superiors, priests and lawyers that this is not to be understood as the norm. …

In Canon Law, if something is not the norm, then it does not have to be done. It may be done. This gives the bishop some control. Ultimately, the bishop is responsible for making sure that as many people are covered as possible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Br., this is very disheartening.

It almost sounds like you’re saying the Holy Father said something like,

– Folks, the Bishops have to do their best to allow you to have an EF mass because it feeds you folks spiritually. If they don’t try, you can complain to Ecclesia Dei.

– Bishops, try your best to give them their EF mass. After all, it is the EXTRAORDINARY form of the mass. (Wink wink)

I hope that is not what you’re saying.

 

[ProVobis]

I think that they’re very good at choosing locations. They’re just not too good at getting along with their neighbors. Some of their priests have said some very nasty things to bishop in their own diocese. You don’t go into someone’s home and bash them. That is sure to stop once this reconciliation is complete. No bishop is going to continue to put up with it.

The next question then would be who would “own” the chapels, make necessary repairs, teach the schools, etc.? I understand this was one of the bigger issues with the AE.

 

[Cider]

Actually, even though it came out today, the article is outdated since it refers to the response still anticipated from Bishop Fellay, when in fact it was received last Wednesday.

Follow up to this. I noticed National Catholic Register has an article saying they spoke with Msgr. Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” on Saturday April 14th and he says they have not received a reply yet from Bishop Fellay.

from the article:

The Vatican is hoping to announce early next week the Society of St. Pius X’s clarifications to the fraternity’s earlier response to a “Doctrinal Preamble” that could form the basis of reconciliation with Rome. But as of April 14th, those clarifications had not been received.
Speaking to the Register this morning, Msgr. Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” – the Vatican body charged with helping to bring reconciliation with the SSPX - said “we haven’t yet received a response” but he added that the fraternity have “preannounced they will arrive at a final clarification, therefore I am hoping that at the beginning of next week we’ll be able to know their position and then take consequent positions.”

 

[jwinch2]

Br., this is very disheartening.

It almost sounds like you’re saying the Holy Father said something like,

– Folks, the Bishops have to do their best to allow you to have an EF mass because it feeds you folks spiritually. If they don’t try, you can complain to Ecclesia Dei.

– Bishops, try your best to give them their EF mass. After all, it is the EXTRAORDINARY form of the mass. (Wink wink)

I hope that is not what you’re saying.

I think that what Brother is saying is that the Holy Father is a practical man and realizes that there are real world limits to what can be done, particularly with limited numbers of priests. The Holy Father also realizes that he cannot go and run everyone’s diocese for them and manage their allocation of clergy. As Brother pointed out, it simply is not possible. Even if it were, it is not desirable as it takes away from the legitimate authority and autonomy of his brother bishops.

To me it sounds as if the Holy Father is saying to his brother bishops something like “you need to make a good faith effort to present the EF Mass to the faithful. If you resist, the faithful can and will complain to the ED and I will likely have to get involved. However, I also understand that you cannot conjure priests who wish to celebrate the EF out of thin air and that your ability to comply may be limited”.

I can desire to give more money to my parish, but I have an obligation to feed my family, pay my bills, and plan for a rainy day first. If extra tithing interferes with my ordinary duties, a realignment of priorities is in order. If a desire to offer the EF of the Mass interferes with the offering of the OF Mass to larger groups of the faithful or pulls the diocesan vocations director away from his duties, then tough decisions must be made.

That’s how I see Brother’s comments anyway.

Peace,

 

[ProVobis]

Numbers are an important part of this situation. If the priest already has two masses and they are a large groups, he cannot drop one of them to take on a small group for an EF. It’s not the size of the group asking for the EF that is the problem, but the size of the group that would be sacrificed. The EF can be celebrated if there are only five people who want it and there is a priest available. But you cannot drop a full church to celebrate for 25 people.

Not to mention priests can’t say more than two Masses per day except by special permission from the bishop. You’re going to have to find a way to get more than 25 people to regularly attend the EF every Sunday. My pastor found out by switching the times for the Spanish and EF Masses, he was able to increase attendance at both so it can be done.

 

[Moore11]

Not to mention priests can’t say more than two Masses per day except by special permission from the bishop.

More than 2 Masses is very common for our Priests. At our Parish (Cathedral) we have two priests. The masses on Sunday are at 8, 10, 11, 1 (spanish) and 5. So one priest is doing 3 Masses every weekend.
In the surrounding area I live in there are 7 Parishes. 5 of them have two priests and a similar Mass schedule. 2 of them have one priest an over three scheduled masses. Now before you tell me how lucky I am to live in a place where there are so many Masses offered just remember that no matter what Mass I go to in any Parish around here, my family and I always sit in our own pew. I completely understand the rough situation with regards to scheduling, I completely get what Brother is saying. However, it is frustrating to see an empty lifeteen Mass at 5 and no EF for many who want it. I’m not saying that if I were Bishop I could drive this bus any better, just that the SSPX could fill a role here.

 

[ProVobis]

However, it is frustrating to see an empty lifeteen Mass at 5 and no EF for many who want it. I’m not saying that if I were Bishop I could drive this bus any better, just that the SSPX could fill a role here.

I understand what you’re saying, I’ve seen fewer than 10 at some Sunday OF Masses too, but it seems the FSSP would probably be in a better spot to serve your community. The FSSPX priests have their own chapels and seem to know how to attract people to the EF there. Just saying.

 

[Melchior_1]

However, it is frustrating to see an empty lifeteen Mass at 5 and no EF for many who want it.

Some of this has to do with timing as well. Our Life Teen Mass is on Sunday evening. A good time for the teens/young adults, but I don’t think many EF goers would be fans of that time frame. Saturday at 6pm might not work out too well for teens, but I could see that spot being used for a celebration using the EF.