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I’m not sure if Saturday anticipatory masses are possible for the EF. Since they maintain the rubrics and calendar of 1962 and the practice of the Saturday anticipatory masses weren’t approved until 1967. I could be wrong? But I’ve yet to see them in the four states where I’ve attended EF masses.
 
I’m not sure if Saturday anticipatory masses are possible for the EF. Since they maintain the rubrics and calendar of 1962 and the practice of the Saturday anticipatory masses weren’t approved until 1967. I could be wrong? But I’ve yet to see them in the four states where I’ve attended EF masses.
Interesting! Learn something new every day 🙂

(My point about Mass times being better for some ages more-so than others still stands though!)
 
I’m not sure if Saturday anticipatory masses are possible for the EF. Since they maintain the rubrics and calendar of 1962 and the practice of the Saturday anticipatory masses weren’t approved until 1967. I could be wrong? But I’ve yet to see them in the four states where I’ve attended EF masses.
Correct. A Saturday evening EF Mass cannot “anticipate” a Sunday Mass. It would have to be the Mass for that Saturday and it would not fulfill Sunday obligation.
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Correct. A Saturday evening EF Mass cannot “anticipate” a Sunday Mass. It would have to be the Mass for that Saturday and it would not fulfill Sunday obligation.
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Well, that’s not completely true.

All Latin-Rite Catholics, no matter what form of the Mass they attend, are still under the authority of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. The 1983 Code says that you satisfy an Obligation by participating in a Mass the day of or the evening before. There is no requirement that it be a Sunday Mass. It could be a funeral, or even a wedding. What matters is the time (Saturday evening, common cited after 4pm), not the type or form or readings.
 
Well, that’s not completely true.

All Latin-Rite Catholics, no matter what form of the Mass they attend, are still under the authority of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. The 1983 Code says that you satisfy an Obligation by participating in a Mass the day of or the evening before. There is no requirement that it be a Sunday Mass. It could be a funeral, or even a wedding. What matters is the time (Saturday evening, common cited after 4pm), not the type or form or readings.
Yes, there is a Saturday EF Mass in Munster, Indiana that supposedly counts for Sunday. Very rare though and I’m not sure whether they use the Saturday readings or Sunday’s. (I drove there once but couldn’t find it. 🙂 )
 
Some of this has to do with timing as well. Our Life Teen Mass is on Sunday evening. A good time for the teens/young adults, but I don’t think many EF goers would be fans of that time frame. Saturday at 6pm might not work out too well for teens, but I could see that spot being used for a celebration using the EF.
In Naperville, Illinois there is a Sunday 5:30pm EF Mass which draws surprisingly high number for that time. It’s said by a FSSP priest. Of course, traffic then doesn’t appear to be much of a problem and there is adequate parking space, so that may make a difference.
 
The part that Traditionalist Catholics have to accept is that the Church does not have the power or the authority to command a priest to celebrate any mass in any form. That’s why SP and UE are written in persuasive language and not as laws.

Even if you have five priests who can celebrate the EF, don’t allow yourself to think poorly of them because they won’t do it… We can’t hold it against anyone who exercises his canonical rights.

That’s the way that sacraments work. You must have form, matter and intent. Intent becomes questionable, when you order a priest to celebrate a mass against his will. It raises all kinds of red flags. That’s why the Church does not make it a law that you must celebrate the EF when requested.

The best answer that any priest can give to his bishop or his superior is a very simple one, “It does not meet my spiritual needs.”

Once he says that, the discussion is over. The priest’s spiritual needs come first, because he cannot give what he does not have.
This is highly objectionable, and for many reasons, but I will only hawk on the main one: Catholics have a right to the sacraments, and priests have a duty to supply them to the faithful, with the usual rule of mercy and clemency; e.g., if someone’s reputation is being calumniated, for example, but it is not doubted that he is a Catholic, then the priest has a duty to administer the sacraments to him. Your formulation gives a very false impression of the actual nature of the sacraments: they were instituted by Our Lord and Saviour for His flock; and not the flock for the sacraments, as it were. I pray my Pater Noster daily, and it is a sort of duty imposed on me, as when we pray that holiest of prayers, we do in fact pray for all Christians everywhere - priests and prelates, the quick and the dead, of course, included, though naturally the Church Militant stands in most need of it (the blessed in Heaven certainly don’t need to worry about temptation). It would be curious to have someone argue that just because I say the prayer largely out of habit or as a duty, that I have a doubtful or defective intention: indeed, if a child were trained to pray, “Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis!” It hardly matters if the child knows the literal translation of the Latin; so long as the child knew it was a prayer to the Virgin Mary (or even just the blessed in general) asking for her (their) intecession, then the prayer would be valid and have its effect.

As for the intention, a Roman Catholic priest is presumed to have the proper one, simply because he is a Roman Catholic priest making use of a Catholic Rite. Priests throughout their lives say so many masses that it becomes for them a habit, and it can hardly be argued that a priest makes some hyper-active “intention” to offer the Holy Sacrifice every single time; therefore, his intention is presumed to be correct. It would be insane if the laity were expected to investigate the hidden or secret intention of a priest every time he offers mass, just in case he secretly might not wish to actually effect the Sacrament, for example: that would require us to literally need to be able to read hearts and minds to be sure we were not engaging in idolatry. I think here people confuse the word intention with an active longing or desire, which is here considered irrelevant. Consider, for example, baptism: it cannot be argued that an atheist or a heretic who denies Christ’s divinity has a correct understanding of the Trinity, for example, or the mystical and spiritual nature of the Sacrament of Baptism; nonetheless, by using the correct matter and form, he indeed does baptize: indeed, he would baptise even if he was ordered to do so and did so out of obligation and not personal desire. Now if he were to in some wise bastardise the formula or use wine instead of water, then he has a defective intention; otherwise, we presume the baptism to be valid and would only, at worse, give a conditional baptism if there was established a reasonable doubt; however, the tradition is usually that only very serious or grave reasons (like those mentioned) be considered before repeating a baptism, since otherwise it is, as you know, a sacrilege. Further, I have read many extremely objectionable formulations in Orthodox/Greek theology by some of their most celebrated theologians; nonetheless, I have never heard it argued that - just because an Orthodox minister might have bad theological training - that his intention is thereby made defective; indeed, one wonders how a schismatic could possibly have the exact intention desired by the Church when saying a Mass; nonetheless, their Masses are regarded as valid, but not (as you know) licit.

(con’t)
 
Generally some visible, external act is required before we question intention; e.g., someone exclaiming that they do not believe that the Mass they are about to offer actually effects what it signifies or someone deliberately adding or ommiting critical parts of the Mass; of these, it is the latter that really brings into question validity. The notorious heresiarch, Nestorius, did not even have the Catholic Faith; nonetheless, I have nowhere heard it said that because he was a heretic and an unbeliever that all his masses were invalid: his offical acts (once he was discovered to be a heretic by his external profession of heresy) as Patriarch of Constantinople were subsequently and automatically made invalid by operation of the law, but no one questioned the validity of his masses.

I shall finish by saying that it is a heresy, for example, to deny the validity of the baptism of even heretics amongst themselves in general unless (as I have said) they are demonstrated to have invalidated the Sacrament by some external work or sign; otherwise, its validity is assured, simply because they acquiesce to the authority of the Catholic Church by making use of the Church’s form and matter; that is to say, a Catholic rite. All that is necessary for intention is to will to do what the Church does (in performing her Sacraments), and by using Catholic Rites we can be assured of the intention, because a Catholic Rite necessarily and by definition signifies what it effects and effects what it signifies. My reason for protest here is because I have seen some websites that madly presume to declare hosts of masses invalid because the priests are suspected of heresy or some such thing: the poor souls who fall for this reasoning finally realise that they haven’t the power to read hearts and minds and so they avoid masses and the sacraments because of their very curious understanding of what the necessary intention is in a minister. Gentle souls are easily scandalised by such things.

Finally, it is a priest’s duty to offer sacrifice; therefore, he can be lawfully commanded to perform that duty and obligation which is imposed upon him by God and his vocation, which he freely undertook, and we have no reason to doubt the validity of such masses.
 
Yes, there is a Saturday EF Mass in Munster, Indiana that supposedly counts for Sunday. Very rare though and I’m not sure whether they use the Saturday readings or Sunday’s. (I drove there once but couldn’t find it. 🙂 )
That really surprises me, because to do a vigil Mass for the EF, you would have to use Sunday’s readings, and that just isn’t possible under the rubrics of the EF. At least I didn’t think so. I have personally never heard of a vigil EF Mass except, of course, for Christmas and Easter.

But whatever the case, if the reunion with the SSPX is successful, this is going to be a huge shot in the arm for the Church, and I think attendance at Masses will really begin to soar. Almost without exception, the EF has drawn large crowds, both young and old. I believe ordinations will start to rise, and there will be a much greater spirituality in the Church than we have seen in many decades. We hear these horror stories that only 30% of Catholics even believe in the Real Presence. Things like that, I believe, will change if this reunification happens.

I can’t tell you how excited I am about this. :dancing: [Snoopy dance!]
 
Br., this is very disheartening.

It almost sounds like you’re saying the Holy Father said something like,

– Folks, the Bishops have to do their best to allow you to have an EF mass because it feeds you folks spiritually. If they don’t try, you can complain to Ecclesia Dei.

– Bishops, try your best to give them their EF mass. After all, it is the EXTRAORDINARY form of the mass. (Wink wink)

I hope that is not what you’re saying.
There is no “wink wink” involved. People have misunderstood SP and UE since they came out. Canon lawyers, bishops and religious superiors have been looking at these documents and observing the language that it uses and the statements that it makes. The language is important, because the Church has a tradition of speaking in a certain way that is not the way that most people speak. Part of it is due to the fact that these things are translated from Latin and part from the fact that the Church has had its own linguistic tradition for centuries. Words don’t necessarily change in meaning in the Church, as they do in the secular world.

In essence SP said:

The Tridentine Form of the mass was never abrogated.

Any secular priest may celebrate it without asking for permission to USE THE FORM, not without asking for permission to juggle around parish schedules.

The bishop remains the highest ranking liturgical authority in the diocese. This is where the parish schedule comes into play. The pastor must answer to the bishop.

The Tridentine form is the “forma extraordinaria”. Here is the subtlety of the language. It becomes evident that he deliberately chose the word “extraordinary”. This word is only used in law to mean that something is not the norm and is not intended to become the norm. Hence the current problem with the EMHC.

The mass that has been called the Pauline Mass is the “forma ordinaria”. Here is the next piece of subtlety of language. It becomes evident that the revised mass is the norm. The norm cannot be replaced by that which is the exception unless it happens with ecclesiastical approval.

But then we get the next few sentences that say a great deal.

Priests who belong to religious communities can say the EF only in private. To say it for the laity or for their community they must have the permission of their superiors. This is very important. The first sentence gives the impression that every priest can choose to celebrate the EF, because it was never abrogated. But here, Canon Lawyers and Superiors General raise a question. If the Tridentine form is still legal, why do priests who are religious need permission to celebrate it for the public? Why can’t you just do what is legal?

The answer comes back, those priests who belong to religious communities must abide by what the superior says and the superior must govern according to the law of the religious community. In effect, the religious community can vote that theTridentine Form is not allowed by the community and no priest of that community can be given permission to celebrate it. If a religious community votes that way, the Church will not interfere. He says “in accordance with the superiors major and common law” I believe is the exact wording in SP. Here is where it becomes very evident that the Tridentine Form is not the norm, because religious superiors and religious constitutions do not have the right to prohibit that which is the norm of the Church. But he’s acknowledging the right of religious superiors general to prohibit the EF, even if the faithful ask for it.

Now what happens? He goes on to tell the bishops that they have to be attentive to those who request the EF and make an effort to provide it. In UE, he makes it clear that there is no magic number needed to start an EF mass in a parish. But he repeats that this does not mean to take away from the authority of the local bishop. In essence, he has no intention of running rough shot over the bishops. To do that would create a nightmare.

He offers the bishops the assistance of the ED Commission to help them meet the requests of the Trad faithful. He makes not promises to anyone that there will always be an EF available or that there will be many places with an EF available. I believe that it is in UE that he make reference to the possibility of consolidating by putting an EF in one place and people can come from outside the parish boundaries.

He is trying very hard to be accommodating without stepping on the toes of the bishops, religious superiors and the priests themselves. He’s asking the bishops to be accommodating, but not to abdicate their role as the liturgical authority.

Then he goes on to say that the two forms must enrich each other, not compete. He is another subtle message to all of us. In essence, “Stop campaigning.” He comes back to this point again, “they are two holy and equal forms of the one Roman Rite”. Again, “you can’t juxtapose them, because they are absolutely the same thing. It is a matter of personal preference,not a matter of holiness. Both forms are sacred.” Basically, “stop comparing them.”
 
Being that he is a reasonable man, he also adds that

a) people have suffered because they were deprived of the Tridentine form and he is sympathetic to them. He wants to respond to their needs and encourages the bishops to do the best they can in good faith.

b) people have taken the liberty to get creative with the Pauline Mass and that has to stop.

He acknowledges two big failures. The insensitivity toward those who are attached to the Tridentine Form and the violation of rules by those who attempted to get creative with the revised missal. Both of those problems have to be fixed. There is no winking here.

What I believe has happened is that people on both sides of the aisle have interpreted this to mean that the Holy Father is pro EF and wants to subtlely replace the OF with the EF and that he is inviting us to make it happen. There is a backlash on the part of those who love their OF and there is an arrogant smugness on the part of those who love their EF.

The man never said such a thing. He does not want the one to replace the other. His language is clear. The EF and OF are the same thing and we must see them as he sees them, as two forms of one rite, not two rites. Each form has its strengths.

There is and never was an intention to make the EF the norm. The intent was to make it available where humanly possible in response to the pastoral needs of those who request it. There was never an intent to bind the bishops to do what they cannot do. The intent was to inform the bishops that the Tridentine form is still legal and that their priests do not need their permission to celebrate the form.

Do priests need permission to change the parish schedule? Absolutely. The can’t just switch up the form of the mass without the consent of the pastor. The pastor speaks for the bishop. Can priests pick and choose which masses to celebrate? No. The pastor assigns the mass schedule. If there is an inconvenience, as in any company, they must go to the president (pastor) and try to come up with a solution. The pastor’s word is final. A priest can’t say that he will not celebrate two OF masses because he plans to go over to St. John’s to celebrate an EF mass. If he’s assigned to St.Joe’s, he has to fulfill his obligations to St. Joe’s parish. If they need him to celebrate two OF masses, he must do so. He he wants to go over to St. John’s to celebrate an EF mass, he must ask the bishop for permission to celebrate a third mass. Most bishops will try to help. If you approach the bishop with demands and a sense of entitlement, you’re going to be met with resistance. This happens to many priests.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
The next question then would be who would “own” the chapels, make necessary repairs, teach the schools, etc.? I understand this was one of the bigger issues with the AE.
My guess is that this would be treated is the case with Opus Dei. Opus Dei owns its chapels and schools. It cannot own parishes. Parishes must come under the jurisdiction of the local bishop. Religious and societies of apostolic life run parishes, but do not own them. The diocese owns them. We own our schools and our other institutions.
Not to mention priests can’t say more than two Masses per day except by special permission from the bishop. You’re going to have to find a way to get more than 25 people to regularly attend the EF every Sunday. My pastor found out by switching the times for the Spanish and EF Masses, he was able to increase attendance at both so it can be done.
This goes back to juggling the numbers in order to make it happen. You just can’t bump a group that is larger, for a smaller group. If you can juggle around the schedule, consolidate two masses that are not well attended, make then into one, that would created a slot for the priest to celebrate that EF mass.

If you have a parish like the one in which we live where they have nine masses every Sunday with about 800 people at each mass and they had about 15 people ask for the EF, it was not humanly possible. They don’t have enough priests to add a 10th mass and they can’t consolidate, because there is not enough room in the church or the parking lot. It’s a huge parish that is very well attended. The answer had to be, “We can’t do it.”

Humanly, it was not possible in that parish. There are two or three parishes that have an EF mass, but people have to get up a little earlier and do a little traveling across the diocese. This happens in many places. You have to figure out what your numbers of parishioners, the number of masses and the number of priests will allow you to do. It’s not impossible, but it does require good coordination or it can be chaotic.

One of the biggest problems that parishes face with any mass that is out of the norm is what happens when the priest is transferred? Continuity is something that frightens pastors, because they don’t want to deal with a hostile crowd when their EF priest is transferred. In some dioceses, priests must move every X number of years. That’s also the fear of religious superiors, to commit to something that you can’t keep going.

Some pastors and some superiors simply say, “We’ll do the best with what we have today. When Father gets transferred, we’ll deal with it.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
This is highly objectionable, and for many reasons, but I will only hawk on the main one: Catholics have a right to the sacraments, and priests have a duty to supply them to the faithful, with the usual rule of mercy and clemency; e.g., if someone’s reputation is being calumniated, for example, but it is not doubted that he is a Catholic, then the priest has a duty to administer the sacraments to him.
He didn’t say anything to the contrary. What he said was that you cannot force a priest to offer the sacraments in the EF versus the OF Form of the Mass.
 
This is highly objectionable, and for many reasons, but I will only hawk on the main one: Catholics have a right to the sacraments, and priests have a duty to supply them to the faithful, with the usual rule of mercy and clemency;
Catholics have a right to the Sacraments, true. What they do not have a right to is the form of the Sacraments. If they have a preference for the EF but it is not able to be offered then they can attend the OF and still receive the Sacrament.

No priest can be forced into celebrating the EF. The priest has a right to his preference as well.

Priests are not just Sacrament machines. They can not be forced against their will to celebrate them.
 
But whatever the case, if the reunion with the SSPX is successful, this is going to be a huge shot in the arm for the Church, and I think attendance at Masses will really begin to soar. Almost without exception, the EF has drawn large crowds, both young and old. I believe ordinations will start to rise, and there will be a much greater spirituality in the Church than we have seen in many decades. We hear these horror stories that only 30% of Catholics even believe in the Real Presence. Things like that, I believe, will change if this reunification happens.

I can’t tell you how excited I am about this. :dancing: [Snoopy dance!]
I’m not really sure that giving them back official ministry in the Church is really going to increase mass attendance at diocesan parishes. I do think it will increase attendance at SSPX chapels though, as there are people that have avoided going for various reasons. Where I live now, the SSPX only has mass once a month, but I attend the EF at the cathedral. I used to live where SSPX was the only EF mass within a 5 hour drive and it was a thriving chapel that I enjoyed very much.
 
A priest can’t say that he will not celebrate two OF masses because he plans to go over to St. John’s to celebrate an EF mass. If he’s assigned to St.Joe’s, he has to fulfill his obligations to St. Joe’s parish. If they need him to celebrate two OF masses, he must do so.
Brother, this seems to contradict what you said earlier:
The part that Traditionalist Catholics have to accept is that the Church does not have the power or the authority to command a priest to celebrate any mass in any form.
The best answer that any priest can give to his bishop or his superior is a very simple one, “It does not meet my spiritual needs.”
Once he says that, the discussion is over. The priest’s spiritual needs come first, because he cannot give what he does not have.
So the hypothetical priest in question could simply tell his pastor or bishop that the OF does not meet his spiritual needs. Then he would not be required to say the two OF Masses at St. Joe’s parish, right? Or any OF at all…
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There is and never was an intention to make the EF the norm. The intent was to make it available where humanly possible in response to the pastoral needs of those who request it. There was never an intent to bind the bishops to do what they cannot do. The intent was to inform the bishops that the Tridentine form is still legal and that their priests do not need their permission to celebrate the form. Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Thank you very much for your post. It was very informative and shows you have really studied into this. Of course you’re right that in introducing the SP, the Holy Father was not looking to replace the OF with the EF. But according to Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos:

“Let me say this plainly: **the Holy Father wants the ancient use of the Mass to become a normal occurence in the liturgical life of the Church **so that all Christ’s faithful – young and old – can become familiar with the older rites and draw from their tangible beauty and transcendence.”

The Cardinal said this in June 2008 when he celebrated the EF at Westminster Cathedral.
 
No priest can be forced into celebrating the EF. The priest has a right to his preference as well.

Priests are not just Sacrament machines. They can not be forced against their will to celebrate them.
Then the opposite must hold true as well. No priest can be forced to celebrate the OF, regardless of parish schedule, numbers, etc.
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There is a backlash on the part of those who love their OF and there is an arrogant smugness on the part of those who love their EF.
Br JR, I think there is/was a lot of arrogant smugness on the part of those Anglophones in my local parish who protested against the introduction of a Spanish OF here. Even a Latin OF wouldn’t make it here. In real life, I still think it’s about language.
 
Generally some visible, external act is required before we question intention; e.g., someone exclaiming that they do not believe that the Mass they are about to offer actually effects what it signifies or someone deliberately adding or ommiting critical parts of the Mass; of these, it is the latter that really brings into question validity. The notorious heresiarch, Nestorius, did not even have the Catholic Faith; nonetheless, I have nowhere heard it said that because he was a heretic and an unbeliever that all his masses were invalid: his offical acts (once he was discovered to be a heretic by his external profession of heresy) as Patriarch of Constantinople were subsequently and automatically made invalid by operation of the law, but no one questioned the validity of his masses.

I shall finish by saying that it is a heresy, for example, to deny the validity of the baptism of even heretics amongst themselves in general unless (as I have said) they are demonstrated to have invalidated the Sacrament by some external work or sign; otherwise, its validity is assured, simply because they acquiesce to the authority of the Catholic Church by making use of the Church’s form and matter; that is to say, a Catholic rite. All that is necessary for intention is to will to do what the Church does (in performing her Sacraments), and by using Catholic Rites we can be assured of the intention, because a Catholic Rite necessarily and by definition signifies what it effects and effects what it signifies. My reason for protest here is because I have seen some websites that madly presume to declare hosts of masses invalid because the priests are suspected of heresy or some such thing: the poor souls who fall for this reasoning finally realise that they haven’t the power to read hearts and minds and so they avoid masses and the sacraments because of their very curious understanding of what the necessary intention is in a minister. Gentle souls are easily scandalised by such things.

Finally, it is a priests duty to offer sacrifice; therefore, he can be lawfully commanded to perform that duty and obligation which is imposed upon him by God and his vocation, which he freely undertook, and we have no reason to doubt the validity of such masses.
The answer is very simple. If a priest is commanded to celebrate a mass in a form that he resists, there are red flags about his intent. It is more than likely that the mass is valid. But there is the remote chance. The Church does not take those chances. That’s why Canon Law does not command any priest to celebrate the sacraments. It deliberately avoids that language. What it says is that the faithful have a right to the sacraments.

No priest can deny the sacraments to anyone under reasonable circumstances. Commanding a priest to celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the mass is not reasonable, if he is willing to celebrate the Ordinary Form.

That’s the answer to that question. No priest can be commanded to celebrate that which is extraordinary, because it can cause serious problems that can be easily avoided by not commanding it.

Look at the other side. Take a priest who is a member of a religious order. He is a priest. His superior does not give him permission to celebrate any mass this week, because it’s not his turn. Is he violating the rights of the faithful? Is he sinning against the priesthood? The answer is “No.” He is first a religious, then a priest. His first duty is to obey his superior. There are many religious communities where priests are not allowed to celebrate mass every day. The superior makes up a schedule. A perfect example are priests who are monks or friars. They celebrate the sacraments according to the practices and commitments of their community. But they share in the same priesthood as every other priest. The rules of the priesthood are universal.

We can safely extrapolate that if one priest cannot be commanded to do what is extraordinary, no priest can be commanded to do so.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
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