SSPX

  • Thread starter Thread starter giuseppeTO
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
By Louie Verrecchio
No, the pope doesn’t need anyone to have his back in order to so rule, but for whatever reason it is clear that the Holy Father has exercised much restraint over the years. Could it be that (please, God!) he is preparing to take the gloves off?

As the effects of old age are increasingly making themselves known to Pope Benedict, so too are the evil intentions of his enemies who grow bolder by the day. Maybe the pope has decided that now is the time to engage Satan’s minions full force with a bold program of restoration; one that will lead to the smaller more faithful Church he once envisioned.
I, for one, truly hope so. Since coming home to the Church, I find myself struggling to maintain a sense of peace and reverence during mass many times due to the completely irreverent decorum of so much of the congregation. I have to fight off the urge to yell “Why are you people even here!?”

I know it’s prideful and judgmental, but, hey, I’m only human. Mass is something so sacred though, I just can’t stand to see people treat it like it’s either a mandatory meeting where they’re bored to death or, on the flip side, a night club where they can just chatter away through the performance. Many may think it an elitist position, but I really think the overabundance of cafeteria Catholics is damaging to the American Church. How many young Catholics are dissuaded from taking their faith seriously on the basis of the behavior of the adults in their churches?

So I think a smaller Church would be a good thing. A small masterpiece is better than a giant monstrosity. Catholics, and Christians in general, are supposed to stand out from the world, not try to adapt their Church to it. I just don’t understand the mentality that can walk with one foot on either side of the line. When I had problems with Christianity as a younger person, I left it altogether. Once I truly accepted Jesus, I wanted to know exactly what he expected of me and to try my hardest to live up to it. Granted, I fail miserably every day but I accept that that’s the standard I’m expected to strive for. But how can one say they believe something and then live in willful, unrepentant denial of the very essence of that belief?

But enough of my ranting. As far as the SSPX homecoming, I sincerely pray it will happen! Especially because there is an SSPX church 5 minutes up the road from my home, and there is only one other church, 30 minutes away, that offers a Latin Mass in my city.

I also pray that the Lord will give our Holy Father enough time on this earth to achieve all the reform he has envisioned. Pope Benedict XVI has been my living hero since coming back to the Church.
 
I, for one, truly hope so. Since coming home to the Church, I find myself struggling to maintain a sense of peace and reverence during mass many times due to the completely irreverent decorum of so much of the congregation. I have to fight off the urge to yell “Why are you people even here!?” I know many may think it an elitist position, but I really think the overabundance of cafeteria Catholics is damaging to the American Church. Catholics, and Christians in general, are supposed to stand out from the world, not try to adapt their Church to it. I just don’t understand the mentality that can walk with one foot on either side of the line. When I had problems with Christianity as a younger person, I left it altogether. Once I truly accepted Jesus, I wanted to know exactly what he expected of me and to try my hardest to live up to it. Granted, I fail miserably every day but I accept that that’s the standard I’m expected to strive for. But how can one say they believe something and then live in willful, unrepentant denial of the very essence of that belief?

But enough of my ranting. As far as the SSPX homecoming, I sincerely pray it will happen! Especially because there is an SSPX church 5 minutes up the road from my home, and there is only one other church, 30 minutes away, that offers a Latin Mass in my city.

I also pray that the Lord will give our Holy Father enough time on this earth to achieve all the reform he has envisioned. Pope Benedict XVI has been my living hero since coming back to the Church.
Oh, I do feel your pain! Like you, I also love our Holy Father, and consider him to be one of the wisest, if not the wisest man on the face of the earth. Certainly he is under constant attack and needs our prayers.
 
Yes, the Pope did but he seemed to use the word a lot to describe the “norms” of the 62 Missal.

catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/universae-ecclesia-instruction-summorum-pontificum/
If I misunderstood you, please correct me. I believe that you’re referring to the use of the term “extraordinary”. Observe what he says in this paragraph, from the link you provided.

The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI and the last edition prepared under Pope John XXIII, are two forms of the Roman Liturgy, defined
respectively as ordinaria and extraordinaria: they are two usages of the one Roman Rite, one alongside the other. Both are the expression of the same lex orandi of the Church. On account of its venerable and ancient use, the forma extraordinaria is to be maintained with appropriate honor.


The form that is ancient is the forma extraordinaria.
False notion:

Do this for a commemoration of me.”

In the order of ordinary facts, a man can be said not to do anything against his will; nonetheless, such wilfullness does not negate a positive duty or obligation when existing, which in this case (as I have shown) is of Divine Institution: God commands the priest to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass and supply His faithful with the sacraments. Now if a priest doesn’t want to do that, then we have reason to worry about his soul; however, we have no reason to doubt the validity of his masses, even if he says them simply for duty’s sake.
Canon Law does not bind any priest to celebrate mass except on Sundays. Even there, those who belong to religious orders are not bound to do so, if their rule or their superior do not allow it. There never has been a universal rule about this. It is assumed that one who becomes a priest, would want to celebrate the mass. It cannot be assumed that the law requires him to do so. There is no such law. Therefore, he can only be commanded to the extend that is permitted by law.

If he’s assigned to a parish, it is assumed that he will celebrate mass for the parishioners on Sunday. Therefore, the pastor can assign him one or two masses and he has to celebrate them. It’s part of his ministry to the diocese. If he is assigned to a hospital, college, high school, counseling center or lives in a monastery, there is no such obligation. These are not parishes. He can attend a mass celebrated by another priest or he can concelebrate.

There is no universal law on this, because there is no consistency in the situation of priests. If you were to say that every priest must celebrate mass, you would have an uprising among Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Cistercians, Trappists, Camaldolese, Marianists, Missioanries of Charity, Missionaries of the Poor and other communities where the priests do not celebrate regular mass, but they attend mass with one of their brothers presiding. Their emphasis is on fraternity. This has been their custom for over 1,000 years.

For that reason, many of the laws that govern priests and sacraments are tied into the ministry to which they are assigned. Some of the rules change with the ministry or the priest’s state in life. Different priests have different states in life.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
The answer is very simple. If a priest is commanded to celebrate a mass in a form that he resists, there are red flags about his intent. It is more than likely that the mass is valid.
This problem of the priest would require immediate correction. There can be nothing inherently objectionable about a Catholic rite: if we suspect he might deliberately butcher or invalidate it, then we have a much more serious problem, because such conduct is, of course, mortally sinful but also means he must have some very, very false notions about the nature of the Mass. The idea of a Catholic priest “resisting” a Catholic Mass is extremely concerning on the face of it.
But there is the remote chance. The Church does not take those chances. That’s why Canon Law does not command any priest to celebrate the sacraments. It deliberately avoids that language. What it says is that the faithful have a right to the sacraments.
I have seen canons that place a positive duty and obligation on priests to supply the sacraments. The whole purpose of the priesthood is to offer sacrifice, worship God and save souls: a priest has an obligation to do that even if it costs him his life. A priest should be willing to even die for his flock and the Faith - if necessary.
Commanding a priest to celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the mass is not reasonable, if he is willing to celebrate the Ordinary Form.
That is an arguable assertion, and depends especially on what you define for being reasonable: if it’s in the good interests of the Faith or the Church, any Catholic can argue that it becomes reasonable. If offering the Tridentine Mass strengthens even one soul in his or her faith, then we have a tangible benefit already, and who would deny that to raise up even one saint is a boon for the whole Church?
We can safely extrapolate that if one priest cannot be commanded to do what is extraordinary, no priest can be commanded to do so.
I still don’t see anything actually extraordinary about priests saying Mass: that is the very definition of ordinary for a priest. The priest is bound - even wed, as it were - to the altar. It is from the altar that he derives his sustenance even, as the Apostle even taught was right and proper. And I am not sure what prevents even religious priests from saying a daily Mass on his own: The Mass gives us extraordinary benefits in its own right and benefits all Christians everywhere. I’m not sure how someone could argue that reducing the number of Masses or even preventing Masses could possibly be beneficial to the Church: again, we all gain from Mass: the more, the merrier.
 
I have seen canons that place a positive duty and obligation on priests to supply the sacraments. The whole purpose of the priesthood is to offer sacrifice, worship God and save souls:
All of which can be done through the OF of the Mass. It is not required that the EF be offered for the faithful to receive the Eucharist.
I still don’t see anything actually extraordinary about priests saying Mass: that is the very definition of ordinary for a priest.
The Church herself has labeled the Masses as “ordinary” or “extraordinary”. Thus saying Mass in the OF is the norm and there is nothing extraordinary about it. Saying Mass in the EF is not the norm. Hence, why it is called the Extraordinary Form.
And I am not sure what prevents even religious priests from saying a daily Mass on his own:
Their solemn vows of obedience to their legitimate superior. They are not secular priests, they are consecrated religious. As long as their superior is not commanding them to commit sin, they are bound to obey.
 
Canon Law does not bind any priest to celebrate mass except on Sundays. Even there, those who belong to religious orders are not bound to do so, if their rule or their superior do not allow it. There never has been a universal rule about this. It is assumed that one who becomes a priest, would want to celebrate the mass. It cannot be assumed that the law requires him to do so. There is no such law. Therefore, he can only be commanded to the extend that is permitted by law.

If he’s assigned to a parish, it is assumed that he will celebrate mass for the parishioners on Sunday. Therefore, the pastor can assign him one or two masses and he has to celebrate them. It’s part of his ministry to the diocese. If he is assigned to a hospital, college, high school, counseling center or lives in a monastery, there is no such obligation. These are not parishes. He can attend a mass celebrated by another priest or he can concelebrate.

There is no universal law on this, because there is no consistency in the situation of priests. If you were to say that every priest must celebrate mass, you would have an uprising among Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Cistercians, Trappists, Camaldolese, Marianists, Missioanries of Charity, Missionaries of the Poor and other communities where the priests do not celebrate regular mass, but they attend mass with one of their brothers presiding. Their emphasis is on fraternity. This has been their custom for over 1,000 years.

For that reason, many of the laws that govern priests and sacraments are tied into the ministry to which they are assigned. Some of the rules change with the ministry or the priest’s state in life. Different priests have different states in life.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
You are simply arguing the exception, and you nonetheless prove my point. A priest can certainly be ordered to say Mass: I did not argue that all priests - even religious priests - are so ordered, but only that it is perfectly licit and lawful for them to be ordered, and that when they fulfill that obligation there is absolutely no doubt about the validity of the Mass they offered, even if they did it for purely obligational reasons.

For a priest to refuse, for example, to fulfill his obligations, when present, and produce the pathetic excuse that he simply doesn’t like offering Mass, would not negate the obligation, nor the lawfulness of the original order. To be law, a thing generally only needs to be reasonable and have for its aim the common good: saying Mass is certainly a reasonable thing to request from a priest, who is alone capable; and Masses certainly serve the common good.
 
Their solemn vows of obedience to their legitimate superior. They are not secular priests, they are consecrated religious. As long as their superior is not commanding them to commit sin, they are bound to obey.
I may be misunderstanding you, but I do believe that Br. JR said that religious could not say the EF Mass in public unless they were allowed to do so by their superior. They are definitely allowed to say the EF Mass in private anytime they want to. The Holy Father made it very clear that the EF was never outlawed as such by the Church. I know a Jesuit who use to say it in private long before the SP, and he is not one who would be disobedient to his superior. Although he did have to hide fact that he was saying the EF from his colleagues because he would be persecuted for it. In fact, he still keeps it quiet that he says the EF on a regular basis in public because he will suffer persecution for it from other priests.
 
I may be misunderstanding you, but I do believe that Br. JR said that religious could not say the EF Mass in public unless they were allowed to do so by their superior. They are definitely allowed to say the EF Mass in private anytime they want to. The Holy Father made it very clear that the EF was never outlawed as such by the Church. I know a Jesuit who use to say it in private long before the SP, and he is not one who would be disobedient to his superior. Although he did have to hide fact that he was saying the EF from his colleagues because he would be persecuted for it. In fact, he still keeps it quiet that he says the EF on a regular basis in public because he will suffer persecution for it from other priests.
They can celebrate the EF in private if they are allowed to celebrate Mass in private.

Some religious communities restrict the celebration of Mass within their houses to be only one Mass for the house.

Here is an example (though it is not the EF but the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom).

I know of a Benedictine Monastery where the prior was bi-ritual. The abbot allowed him to celebrate the Divine Liturgy once a month on a Thursday and he could invite a limited number of guests. The reason for allowing guests is that the Divine Liturgy can not be celebrated without a congregation. Unlike the Mass.

This went on for a couple of years then the abbot decided that it would end. It did. The prior never complained about it. It is what it is.
 
All of which can be done through the OF of the Mass. It is not required that the EF be offered for the faithful to receive the Eucharist.
My original complaint and objection had to with the false assertion that priests cannot lawfully be ordered or obliged to say Mass as if that would somehow endanger in any way the validity of his Mass. It absolutely does not; furthermore, that a priest would “resist” saying a Mass, or may even be suspected of harbouring thoughts of deliberately invalidating it, sounds to me frankly absurd, because a priest above all should know that to do such a thing is a sure fire way to end up in hell: it’s a mortal sin to deliberately invalidate a Mass; furthermore, there can be nothing actually objectionable about a Catholic Mass: that is why it is Catholic in the first place. So anyone resisting on these grounds should be immediately held suspect: “Pray tell,” his superior should say, “what is so offensive about Holy Mass?”
The Church herself has labeled the Masses as “ordinary” or “extraordinary”. Thus saying Mass in the OF is the norm and there is nothing extraordinary about it. Saying Mass in the EF is not the norm. Hence, why it is called the Extraordinary Form.
This would be secondary and even if applicable, bears no matter on the immediate debate. Notice that we are discussing priests saying Mass: we are debating the principles associated with that.
Their solemn vows of obedience to their legitimate superior. They are not secular priests, they are consecrated religious. As long as their superior is not commanding them to commit sin, they are bound to obey.
I realize that, but I meant to say that there isn’t anything inherently wrong about saying a Mass if or when possible, because the Mass benefits the whole Church as such, and even accrues favours for the world in general (such as delaying Judgement Day!). Nonetheless, if they can be ordered not to say Mass, then they can also be ordered to say it, as I think no one is going to any longer try to contest.
 
I may be misunderstanding you, but I do believe that Br. JR said that religious could not say the EF Mass in public unless they were allowed to do so by their superior. They are definitely allowed to say the EF Mass in private anytime they want to.
Consecrated religious priests are required to have permission from their superiors to say Mass, OF or otherwise. The superior also has the authority to completely suppress the EF of the Mass should they desire to do so.

Because Jesuits function differently (e.g. on their own rather than living in community for much of the time), as compared to other consecrated religious, they may have something in their constitutions which allows them to always celebrate a daily Mass. I’m not sure on that one. However, the other orders do not function that way.
 
They can celebrate the EF in private if they are allowed to celebrate Mass in private.
Here is what UE has to say:
  1. The faculty to celebrate sine populo (or with the participation of only one minister) in the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite is given by the Motu Proprio to all priests, whether secular or religious (cf. Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, art. 2). For such celebrations therefore, priests, by provision of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, do not require any special permission from their Ordinaries or superiors.
All priests, whether secular or religious, can celebrate the EF in private without needing permission from any superior. Seems pretty clear to me.
  • PAX
 
Consecrated religious priests are required to have permission from their superiors to say Mass, OF or otherwise. The superior also has the authority to completely suppress the EF of the Mass should they desire to do so.
Please see my post above.
  • PAX
 
Here is what UE has to say:

All priests, whether secular or religious, can celebrate the EF in private without needing permission from any superior. Seems pretty clear to me.
  • PAX
Yes, it is clear. If the religious institute/superior allow for private Masses then the priest needs no permission to celebrate the EF.

No where does UE speak about a religious priest not needing permission to celebrate a private Mass.
 
My original complaint and objection had to with the false assertion that priests cannot lawfully be ordered or obliged to say Mass as if that would somehow endanger in any way the validity of his Mass. It absolutely does not; furthermore, that a priest would “resist” saying a Mass, or may even be suspected of harbouring thoughts of deliberately invalidating it, sounds to me frankly absurd, because a priest above all should know that to do such a thing is a sure fire way to end up in hell: it’s a mortal sin to deliberately invalidate a Mass.
Brother is not suggesting that a priest would deliberately invalidate a Mass. He is suggesting that a conscious perception on the part of the priest that the EF of the Mass is not spiritually fulfilling to them could, in some rare cases, potentially cause a subconscious lack of intent. The Church is not willing to take that chance.

In addition, as Brother JR also pointed out the Church must be very careful to focus on the spiritual fulfillment of the clergy. If priests are not be nurtured spiritually in the Mass, this will have a ripple effect outside of the Mass. As already noted, one cannot give something they do not have.
This would be secondary and even if applicable, bears no matter on the immediate debate. Notice that we are discussing priests saying Mass: we are debating the principles associated with that.
No. This whole discussion generated in relation to offering the EF of the Mass and why it is not always available. Please go back and read the entire thread as in coming late to the discussion, you appear to have missed that this is an essential part of the topic at hand.
Nonetheless, if they can be ordered not to say Mass they can also be ordered to say it, as I think no one is going to any longer try to contest.
A secular/diocesan priest can be ordered to say the OF of the Mass as that is part of the normal function but they cannot be ordered to say the EF.
 
Yes, it is clear. If the religious institute/superior allow for private Masses then the priest needs no permission to celebrate the EF.

No where does UE speak about a religious priest not needing permission to celebrate a private Mass.
You assume that the “if/then” of private masses is in UE. I do not see it there. Instead, I see very clearly stated in unambiguous terms that any qualified priest, religious or secular, can offer a private mass in the EF without needing any permission from anyone. If the Holy Father meant to restrict the offering of private masses in the EF, I am certain such things would have been stated as it goes against the clear understanding of the words on the paper.
  • PAX
 
Yes, it is clear. If the religious institute/superior allow for private Masses then the priest needs no permission to celebrate the EF.

No where does UE speak about a religious priest not needing permission to celebrate a private Mass.
This sounds about right. If private Masses are allowed, any Form goes. If private Masses are forbidden, then forget about it.
You assume that the “if/then” of private masses is in UE. I do not see it there. Instead, I see very clearly stated in unambiguous terms that any qualified priest, religious or secular, can offer a private mass in the EF without needing any permission from anyone. If the Holy Father meant to restrict the offering of private masses in the EF, I am certain such things would have been stated as it goes against the clear understanding of the words on the paper.
  • PAX
It doesn’t need to be stated, because those who are consecrated religious know that when you make a solemn vow of obedience, you jump when they tell you to jump (unless they tell you to jump off a cliff onto a pile of spikes). If the Superior says no private Masses, then no private Masses.
 
Please see my post above.
  • PAX
Sorry, I should have been more clear.

A religious superior can deny the opportunity to celebrate private Mass in any form. However, if that permission is given then I believe religious priests can celebrate the EF in private.

Regardless, the religious superior, unlike the diocesan Bishop, can suppress celebration of the EF in public by members of his community. Exempt religious do not operate in the same manner as the rest of the Church.
 
You are simply arguing the exception, and you nonetheless prove my point. A priest can certainly be ordered to say Mass: I did not argue that all priests - even religious priests - are so ordered, but only that it is perfectly licit and lawful for them to be ordered, and that when they fulfill that obligation there is absolutely no doubt about the validity of the Mass they offered, even if they did it for purely obligational reasons.

For a priest to refuse, for example, to fulfill his obligations, when present, and produce the pathetic excuse that he simply doesn’t like offering Mass, would not negate the obligation, nor the lawfulness of the original order. To be law, a thing generally only needs to be reasonable and have for its aim the common good: saying Mass is certainly a reasonable thing to request from a priest, who is alone capable; and Masses certainly serve the common good.
Unfortunately, you and I don’t make Canon Law. This was not in the intention of Pope John Paul II. The priests, bishops and superiors go by Canon Law, not by by theological argument.
I may be misunderstanding you, but I do believe that Br. JR said that religious could not say the EF Mass in public unless they were allowed to do so by their superior. They are definitely allowed to say the EF Mass in private anytime they want to. The Holy Father made it very clear that the EF was never outlawed as such by the Church. I know a Jesuit who use to say it in private long before the SP, and he is not one who would be disobedient to his superior. Although he did have to hide fact that he was saying the EF from his colleagues because he would be persecuted for it. In fact, he still keeps it quiet that he says the EF on a regular basis in public because he will suffer persecution for it from other priests.
Only religious who have permission to celebrate private masses can use the EF in private. There are communities that do not have private masses. There is only one mass allowed in the house.

Secondly, if you belong to a fraternal community, the priesthood is accidental, not essential to the community. In which case, if you are a priest, you are bound to obey, like any other religious. The superior, the chapter or the constitutions have the right to determine when you say mass.

That is why SP refers to the Superior Major and Common Law.

The thing is that the religious are not an exception. Some people are telling me that I’m arguing using the exception. That is not the case.

The religious communities have these practices, because the norm allows for them. These practices have been part of the Church for over 1,000 years. They are included in the norm. Therefore, anything that is in conflict with these practices is also in conflict with the norm. There is only one priesthood. There can only be one norm. The circumstances are going to vary. You adapt to the circumstances, as long as you don’t violate the norm. Therefore, you cannot order a priest to do what the law does not require of priests.

An exception is when you have a norm that says the ordinary minister of Holy Communion is the deacon, priest and bishop. The norm is not allowing for a layman. The layman becomes the exception and you have to get the proper permissions to use the EMHC.

In the case of priests who belong to religious communities, the superiors do not have to apply for any kind of indult or exception, because the norm in Canon Law allows for these practices, regardless of anything that is said by theological speculation . The governance of the Church is in the canons, not in theology.

The canons cannot violate dogma and moral doctrine. Any other theological opinion, is up to the pope who promulgates the canon. In this case, Pope Paul VI wrote the code of 1983 and Pope John Paul promulgated it. Whatever theological principles they took into consideration are reflected by the canons. Everything else that we can throw at it will not hold up in a court of law. Catholic tribunals ask only three questions.
  1. What does Canon Law say?
  2. What did the writer of the law intend?
  3. What do these words mean in light of the tradition of Church law?
They don’t ask, “What is theologically correct?” It’s a court of law, not a university classroom. Like any other court of law, it assumes that the law is built upon approved theological principles.

We have to think with the law.

Even more important, we have to remember what I’ve always said. We’re not going to get to heaven by winning an argument. As Mother Teresa said, “You get to heaven by doing small things with great love.”

All of this arguing is really an exercise in mental gymnastics that has very little to do with the spiritual life. It does not make us more virtuous. If anything, I think it makes us less charitable and less patient.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
You assume that the “if/then” of private masses is in UE. I do not see it there. Instead, I see very clearly stated in unambiguous terms that any qualified priest, religious or secular, can offer a private mass in the EF without needing any permission from anyone. If the Holy Father meant to restrict the offering of private masses in the EF, I am certain such things would have been stated as it goes against the clear understanding of the words on the paper.
  • PAX
I am sorry but you are reading into the text what is not there.

It clearly states that if a priest, secular or regular, celebrates a private Mass he may use the EF if he so chooses.

No where does it state that every priest is free to celebrate private Masses.

I know of many religious institutes that do not allow for private Masses without the approval of the superior.

Is the word of religious (myself and Br JR) not enough for you on this point?
 
A secular/diocesan priest can be ordered to say the OF of the Mass as that is part of the normal function but they cannot be ordered to say the EF.
Where is the evidence for this?

The arguments given (preference, spiritual nourishment, etc) are equally applicable to those priests forced to say the OF. The only argument that you seem to be offering is that the OF is listed as the ordinary form, therefore priests can be forced to say it. But such a position contradicts all of your arguments as to why a priest cannot be forced to say the EF, because all of those arguments then apply to the priest who is being forced to say the OF. In other words, you are using reasons in one situation and discounting them in the other. If we are going to draw such a big distinction between the OF and the EF, I think we need some direct evidence, such as a statement out of the Vatican.
  • PAX
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top