SSPX

[JReducation]

I think the real work rests on the shoulders of the laity.

There have been many things said and many have had their feelings hurt. There is much distrust and not a small ammount of pride that will have to be put aside.

The details of sacramental records, who owns what and other such things will be easy to figure out. How the laity gets along is going to require heroic humility.

-Tim-

The laity on both sides has to back down. I agree with you. If the Holy Father is happy with the situation, what does everyone else gain by slinging mud?

So, do we know any details at all about the modifications to the doctrinal preamble?

No. There is just speculation. No one even knows what was in the Preamble. All that was ever said was that it contained the doctrinal points that the SSPX had to accept in order to come home. Everyone seems to think they know what is in the document, from reporters to bloggers.

Better read the article on Rorate Caeli Blogspot. They say Bishop Fellay has accepted the terms. But no one outside of Rome or Econe knows what they are and probably won’t for several days.(maybe weeks).

Or the faithful may never be told. The Holy See can swear the people involved to secrecy and the Preamble can be filed in the secret archives and never be seen again. But both sides will know what they agreed to and that’s what matters, not what we know. We’re just curious cats. We don’t need to know.

Many people thrive on chaos.

That’s because some people can’t live without drama. Haven’t you noticed? :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

I agree, there is never an appropriate moment to celebrate someone else’s chagrin.

If the Holy Father signs off on this, it’s a moment of reconciliation. We’re talking about 500 priests, maybe 300 religious and about one million lay people. I see this as the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. The Cold War is finally over. It’s a moment to rejoice and to thank God for his grace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

And he broke the stalemate over translations. Most people don’t realize what a huge matter that was. We were stuck, dead in the water for years over that because of the political maneuvering that had gone on for years. The Vatican finally caught onto what we were doing in the late 90s, and then it took about a decade to work the fix into place with a new Latin Roman Missal, then translations, etc. The transition didn’t happen as quickly as it looked to many people in the pews, not at all. It started with PJP2 and PBXVI finished it. It took all of 15-20 years to accomplish. Now, finally we have a precedent and the resistance is broken.

 

[iloveangels]

The laity on both sides has to back down. I agree with you. If the Holy Father is happy with the situation, what does everyone else gain by slinging mud?

No. There is just speculation. No one even knows what was in the Preamble. All that was ever said was that it contained the doctrinal points that the SSPX had to accept in order to come home. Everyone seems to think they know what is in the document, from reporters to bloggers.

Or the faithful may never be told. The Holy See can swear the people involved to secrecy and the Preamble can be filed in the secret archives and never be seen again. But both sides will know what they agreed to and that’s what matters, not what we know. We’re just curious cats. We don’t need to know.

That’s because some people can’t live without drama. Haven’t you noticed? :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Agree. We may not ever need to know what’s in it.

I’m not a follower of the SSPX or really anything like that, but if this is true, I am certainly also glad to welcome the SSPX back home.

Since people are talking about this, there is really no such thing as SSPX laity. The movement was technically restricted to clergy for a very good reason. Yes, some laypeople frequented SSPX chapels, but there is no accounting for taste, and we’ve all seen plenty of that on both sides and down the middle of the Church for years. Big deal. Tell me something new. It should be a very simple thing to normalize what’s gone on sacramentally with the laity for this reason.

It should be a very simple matter to merge the two congregations of laity together if, and I’m hoping this is not a big if, they can demonstrate some Christian charity, hospitality and decency towards each other. We are, after all, all Catholics.

As for the clergy, we even know how to set up structures, curricula, practicums etc now for re-certifying clergy thanks to the Ordinariates we have. We can do it for the SSPX too. No big deal there either.

 

[JReducation]

Agree. We may not ever need to know what’s in it.

I’m not a follower of the SSPX or really anything like that, but if this is true, I am certainly also glad to welcome the SSPX back home.

Since people are talking about this, there is really no such thing as SSPX laity. The movement was technically restricted to clergy for a very good reason. Yes, some laypeople frequented SSPX chapels, but there is no accounting for taste, and we’ve all seen plenty of that on both sides and down the middle of the Church for years. Big deal. Tell me something new. It should be a very simple thing to normalize what’s gone on sacramentally with the laity for this reason.

It should be a very simple matter to merge the two congregations of laity together if, and I’m hoping this is not a big if, they can demonstrate some Christian charity, hospitality and decency towards each other. We are, after all, all Catholics.

As for the clergy, we even know how to set up structures, curricula, practicums etc now for re-certifying clergy thanks to the Ordinariates we have. We can do it for the SSPX too. No big deal there either.

All the doubts about those marriages and absolution can be fixed by radical sanation, which is a way of retroactively fixing what may have been broken. Basically, the Church by its authority granted to her by Jesus himself declares that any deficiencies in the sacraments are bypassed as long as the form, matter and intent were consistent with faith. That should not be a problem with the SSPX.

You’re right about the laity. There is no such thing as SSPX laity. This is why the laity needs to step down on both sides. We keep speaking about the laity as if they belonged to two different religions. If they’re not legal members of the SSPX, what other reason would there be to use that name, unless one thinks of the SSPX as a church of some kind, which it never claimed to be, even though at times it acted like it.

The issue now is, will the Holy Father be pleased with the SSPX’s response? The Rumor Mill seems to believe that Bishop Fellay is pleased. Of course, we have not heard that from him.

If the Holy Father is pleased, there are going to be several years of hard work ahead to get the SSPX up and running as a prelature. Prelatures can be canonically erected by signing a paper. But the actual work that goes into it is incredible. We’re talking about property rights, finances, jurisdiction, formation, definition of its ministry and healing the relations with the bishops of the host dioceses where the SSPX have chapels.

There will be the touchy situation of Archbishop Lefebvre. The SSPX venerates him and the Vatican considers him a bishop who died outside the Church, because his excommunication was never lifted. That’s going to require some diplomacy. How do you separate the identify of the Society from its founder or do you let it go and never mention his name outside of the Society?

The good part here is that the Society has money, because a prelature, like a diocese, must be self supporting. It’s probably the only organization in the world than can afford to pay its priests their salaries. Now that is a skill that many bishops should look to the Society. Some priests have not had raises in several years since the economic crisis began. It also has vocations. It can sustain itself. Let’s hope that the rest goes well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

All the doubts about those marriages and absolution can be fixed by radical sanation, which is a way of retroactively fixing what may have been broken. Basically, the Church by its authority granted to her by Jesus himself declares that any deficiencies in the sacraments are bypassed as long as the form, matter and intent were consistent with faith. That should not be a problem with the SSPX.

You’re right about the laity. There is no such thing as SSPX laity. This is why the laity needs to step down on both sides. We keep speaking about the laity as if they belonged to two different religions. If they’re not legal members of the SSPX, what other reason would there be to use that name, unless one thinks of the SSPX as a church of some kind, which it never claimed to be, even though at times it acted like it.

The issue now is, will the Holy Father be pleased with the SSPX’s response? The Rumor Mill seems to believe that Bishop Fellay is pleased. Of course, we have not heard that from him.

If the Holy Father is pleased, there are going to be several years of hard work ahead to get the SSPX up and running as a prelature. Prelatures can be canonically erected by signing a paper. But the actual work that goes into it is incredible. We’re talking about property rights, finances, jurisdiction, formation, definition of its ministry and healing the relations with the bishops of the host dioceses where the SSPX have chapels.

There will be the touchy situation of Archbishop Lefebvre. The SSPX venerates him and the Vatican considers him a bishop who died outside the Church, because his excommunication was never lifted. That’s going to require some diplomacy. How do you separate the identify of the Society from its founder or do you let it go and never mention his name outside of the Society?

The good part here is that the Society has money, because a prelature, like a diocese, must be self supporting. It’s probably the only organization in the world than can afford to pay its priests their salaries. Now that is a skill that many bishops should look to the Society. Some priests have not had raises in several years since the economic crisis began. It also has vocations. It can sustain itself. Let’s hope that the rest goes well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

The bit about property, churches and all that may not be so hard. They’ve done rather well and have some nice property right where the people they’ve been serving are. We’ve been selling ours off nearly empty in some places to pay bills.

The Archbishop Lefebvre matter may not be as easy, I agree. On the other hand, we’re dealing with situations far worse in the cases of the founders of the Legionaries of Christ and a few other groups. We can probably handle that too.

I know the the 4 SSPX bishops’ excommunications were lifted a year or so ago, but I’m not so sure about Abp. Lefebvre. Can it be lifted after he’s deceased? On the other hand, the Church has, in the past, rehabilitated people before. I can give at least one example.

I think the main problem may be healing hurt feelings, coupled with the fears that dioceses may have, and the shrill noise the far left is sure to emit for a time. But I think we’ll get past it okay if this comes about. It won’t hurt us any. Not really.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Just gonna bow in here for a sec…

 

[Megan7]

Just gonna bow in here for a sec…

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/25/pauskerst2007.jpg

 

[anodos]

Hello! I asked this questions before threads were merged, and I don’t know if there was a reply or not…
IF a reconciliation of SSPX and Rome is announced today, may I attend an SSPX chapel this coming Sunday, or would I need to wait months or years for the situation to be fully ironed out?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Hello! I asked this questions before threads were merged, and I don’t know if there was a reply or not…
IF a reconciliation of SSPX and Rome is announced today, may I attend an SSPX chapel this coming Sunday, or would I need to wait months or years for the situation to be fully ironed out?

You can already attend SSPX chapels. Catholics have always been permitted to do so as long as they did so not to try to separate themselves from the Pope, but for love of the Extraordinary Form.

So, you may attend Mass there as it pleases you.

 

[YoungTradCath]

The text of the response of His Excellency Bp. Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, requested during the meeting in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of March 16, 2012, was delivered on April 17, 2012. This text will be examined by the Dicastery and submitted afterwards to the judgment of the Holy Father.

More information at Rorate Caeli:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/04/communique-of-pontifical-commission.html

 

[Boulder257]

Wow!!! I am stunned and speechless, in a good way!

 

[PazzoGrande]

I knew Cardinal Ratzinger from many years ago. Unless he’s really changed, he was a very sweet, gentle, timid man who enjoyed watching humor, but never engaged in it. That’s why I almost fell off my chair.

John Allen Jr recounts a funny story in The Rise of Benedict.

Cardinal Ratzinger was releasing his autobiography Milestones. A journalist asked him why the book doesn’t cover any childhood sweethearts Ratzinger may have had. Ratzinger replied, “Because I had to keep the manuscript to under 100 pages.”

 

[JReducation]

The Archbishop Lefebvre matter may not be as easy, I agree. On the other hand, we’re dealing with situations far worse in the cases of the founders of the Legionaries of Christ and a few other groups. We can probably handle that too.

It would seem to me that Legion’s situation is actually easier, because there is mutual agreement that Fr. Marcel acted inappropriately. In the case of the archbishop, there are those who still believe that he acted appropriately and who hold him up as a role model.

I know the the 4 SSPX bishops’ excommunications were lifted a year or so ago, but I’m not so sure about Abp. Lefebvre. Can it be lifted after he’s deceased?

There are two conditions under which an excommunication can be lifted. The first is the situation of the four SSPX bishops. They asked for it. Of course, we’re not going to be told that they asked for forgiveness and we don’t need to know this. All we need to know is that there was a desire on their part to be re-communicated with the Church. The Church, in her mercy lifts the penalty. We have to remember that excommunication is medicinal. The moment there is some sign of movement in the right direction, it is fair to lift its burden This would not apply to the archbishop, because he is deceased. He has no way of asking.

Post mortem, which would be the archbishop’s case, an excommunication is lifted if the penalty was unjust or if it is discovered that there was contrition before death. This is where it gets tricky. This excommunication is not unjust, because the archbishop violated a law that carries an automatic penalty of excommunication. He knew the law. Had he not known the law, the excommunication would not have applied.

That leaves the second option, was there an expression of remorse for violating the law? They may have been; bu if it was, it would only be known to that priest who heard his confession. There was never a public statement of remorse or a request from the archbishop himself. For this reason, when the Holy Father lifted the excommunication, he was very careful to mention the specific names of those to whom mercy was being shown. The archbishop’s name was not on that document. He remains excommunicated.

If in the future, it is discovered that he told someone that he wanted to come back, then the case can be opened. So far, no one has said that he ever made such a statement. So to recap, the fairness of the excommunication is not in question by the Signatura, which would be the only other authority to question it, besides the pope. If the pope says that it was fair, we must give it intellectual assent, even if our emotions pull us in different directions. He is the supreme judge and the Living Law of the Church.

I think the main problem may be healing hurt feelings, coupled with the fears that dioceses may have, and the shrill noise the far left is sure to emit for a time. But I think we’ll get past it okay if this comes about. It won’t hurt us any. Not really.

Two things are needed and one may be done by the pope. The SSPX and the Traditionalist movement need to be contained. When you contain something, you can guide its progress. If it’s all over the place it will also grow all over the map, which is not good. If there is a prelature that gives the Society a place of its own and it gives the friends of the Society a place to interact with it under the supervision of the pope. That’s why they call it a personal prelature. The prelate is not the Ordinary. The pope is the Ordinary. The prelate would be more of a vicar. Which gives him many of the same powers as a diocesan bishop, but not the same degree of independence from the Holy See. Diocesan bishops are heads of Churches. A prelature is not a Church. It’s a different animal.

Hello! I asked this questions before threads were merged, and I don’t know if there was a reply or not…
IF a reconciliation of SSPX and Rome is announced today, may I attend an SSPX chapel this coming Sunday, or would I need to wait months or years for the situation to be fully ironed out?

You can always attend mass a the SSPX chapel under two conditions: 1) That you not support or adopt the separatist behavior of many of the people there and 2) That you not use their priests for confession, except in an emergency. That would be life and death. People tend to stretch that beyond what Canon Law means. Canon Law means biological life and death, not the fact that you have a mortal sin and you’re afraid that if you die,you’ll go to hell. If you’re perfectly healthy, you can wait to see a confessor with faculties.

More information at Rorate Caeli:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/04/communique-of-pontifical-commission.html

Now we wait. One of two things can happen from this point forward.

1. The Dicastry will study the response to determine if it says what they want it to say. If not, they will send it back. Cardinal Levada, as the Prefect, can act in the name of the pope and tell them to cross the tees and dot the eyes.
2. The Dicastry can forward it to the pope with its recommendations. From there, it’s wait and see what the pope says. We will never be told what the recommendations are. This is a matter of discretion and safety. There are some people out there who are not well wrapped. And if they don’t like the recommendations they can pose a threat to one of these theologians and cardinals. That’s how St. Bonaventure died. He was one of the cardinals who gave an unfavorable vote on a decision at the Lateran. He was poisoned on his way home. There are loosely wrapped people on both side and in every age.

What do we do? We wait and pray.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TimothyH]

The laity on both sides has to back down. I agree with you. If the Holy Father is happy with the situation, what does everyone else gain by slinging mud?

It’s so hard to do. I confess it of myself. It is so hard to trust.

It’s easy for me to want to start demanding apologies or to simply shrug my shoulders and think that nothing has really changed except that some men in far away places have signed some papers. It’s difficult for me not to be cynical. Maybe I shouldn’t say so, or maybe I should pour my heart out before God. Either way, there it is.

You know Brother, on 9-11 I walked past the St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC on my way to walk across the 59th St. Bridge so that I could get a train back to Long Island. I was part of a tide of people heading that way because we had heard that it was the only bridge open and the only way to get off Manhattan Island. Someone in front of the cathedral was hading out pieces of paper with a prayer on it. I wasn’t even a Christian then but I saved that paper, still have it. This is what it says. I’m sure you have heard it before ()

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen

I take it out a look at it some times, and wish I could go back and thank the person who gave it to me.

-Tim-

 

[Cider]

read this last night on National Catholic Register, interesting take on it

ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/sspx-in-heretics-out/

 

[ProVobis]

Hello! I asked this questions before threads were merged, and I don’t know if there was a reply or not…
IF a reconciliation of SSPX and Rome is announced today, may I attend an SSPX chapel this coming Sunday, or would I need to wait months or years for the situation to be fully ironed out?

Yes, the only question remaining there is if there are enough parking spaces around to handle the overflow.

 

[JReducation]

It’s so hard to do. I confess it of myself. It is so hard to trust.

It’s easy for me to want to start demanding apologies or to simply shrug my shoulders and think that nothing has really changed except that some men in far away places have signed some papers. It’s difficult for me not to be cynical. Maybe I shouldn’t say so, or maybe I should pour my heart out before God. Either way, there it is.

You know Brother, on 9-11 I walked past the St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC on my way to walk across the 59th St. Bridge so that I could get a train back to Long Island. I was part of a tide of people heading that way because we had heard that it was the only bridge open and the only way to get off Manhattan Island. Someone in front of the cathedral was hading out pieces of paper with a prayer on it. I wasn’t even a Christian then but I saved that paper, still have it. This is what it says. I’m sure you have heard it before ()

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen

I take it out a look at it some times, and wish I could go back and thank the person who gave it to me.

-Tim-

Hmmm . . . I wonder who wrote that? Could it be the same founding father who taught his sons and daughters that our feelings and opinions have no place and no value once the bishop or the pope have spoken? “The place of every Christian is by the Church and her bishops. It is not to stand in judgment of them, for they are our masters, not we theirs. We depend on them for salvation. They do not depend on us. No matter what we may perceive their sins to be, our souls are in greater danger for considering their sins at all.”

read this last night on National Catholic Register, interesting take on it

ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/sspx-in-heretics-out/

Archibold can be a little over the top at times and this is one of those times. There is probably going to be some change at the Register as well, now that EWTN has taken over. The Franciscan position has always been not to drive wedges. EWTN is founded on those principles. Some writers in the Register have a tendency to do that. I guess it comes with journalism. I don’t know, I’m not a journalist. I know that this was what impressed Mother Angelica about Raymond Arroyo. He’s very cautious not to throw people under the bus.

It’s a good policy to follow.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jwinch2]

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-confirms-sspx-response

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/detail/articolo/lefebvriani-lefebvrians-lefebvrianos-14410/

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/04/18/vatican-welcomes-positive-sspx-response/

:extrahappy:

 

[Boulder257]

read this last night on National Catholic Register, interesting take on it

ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/sspx-in-heretics-out/

I find it troubling that he wrote this. Probably because I think it continues to lend itself to a spirit of division despite the recent developments.

I will admit, just as Timothy H. did earlier, that my first instict is to demand apology and try to determine which side “won.” I couldn’t help but have an almost smug first reaction. How horrible is this! I am ashamed at myself and grateful that even a sinner like me can be a part of the wonderful body of Christ.

Once I passed over this initial emotion I couldn’t help but realize that this is an awesome step and a wonderful answer to prayer. It amazes me that even during a time when we should be rejoicing some still can’t bring themselves to do it. I will never understand this reaction, despite the fact that I have to include myself in the category, but it definitely reminds me that these things can only happen through the power of the Holy Spirit. Praise God!

 

[JReducation]

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-confirms-sspx-response

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/detail/articolo/lefebvriani-lefebvrians-lefebvrianos-14410/

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/04/18/vatican-welcomes-positive-sspx-response/

:extrahappy:

Go with the Vatican Insider. It gives you the known facts without the speculations by the writer.

Will the day ever come when we have journalists who will simply say, “They signed the paper. The initial response of the Vatican has been positive. No one knows what’s in the Preamble and we have no idea if the Holy See is going to accept it or not,” without speculating on what’s in it, who feels what way or worse, using Church language incorrectly?

First of all, there is not such a group as Lefebvrists. Second, excommunications being lifted have nothing to do with the SSPX as a group. The entire Society was never excommunicated. Why link the two? And third, the issue is not that Traditionalists get punished and left wing liberals get a pass. The issue is one of law. There are many things that left wing liberals do that make you want to throttle them, but there is no law that carries an automatic whipping for their nonsense. Therefore, as much as we would like to, we cannot throttle them. There is the kink in the armor.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV