St. Augustine and Grace of Perseverance to the End

[poptown]

Yesterday I struggled painfully with St. Augustine’s “On the Predestination of the Saints (Book II)” also known as “On the Gift of Perseverance (to the End)”, until I went to a Eucharist Adoration in the late evening … so I would like to share with you what I have found out …

It seems that this article was written almost at his end of life, which means it can sound quite Calvinistic, provided, of course, that we are blinded of the doctrine of free will and other Augustine’s Catholic teachings.

In this article, St. Augustine talks about this grace of perseverance to the end, and claim it as an one-time gift from God which is given after our initial justification (by faith through grace) and before the end of our life. This grace is unable to be lost. And, as the name suggests, those who have this grace must persevere to the end. And those who do not have it must not persevere to the end.

Now I know that this sounds Calvinistic and at least Protestant. Fortunately, St. Augustine also teaches that this grace is external to faith, hope and love. even if these virtues are genuine. So this teaching is not a “faith alone” teaching. Therefore, he teaches further that this grace can and must be obtained through prayer, and that a person cannot know whether he has this grace until the end of his life.

Still, this sounds quite Calvinistic because St. Augustine indeed is teaching that at some point before our death, God, by his grace alone, assures some faithful to persevere to the end whatsoever and some others not to persevere whatsoever. Even if this grace is obtained by our prayer and cannot be known by us in this life, it still sounds like the P in TULIP …

One solution I came up with is that when St. Augustine says this grace can be granted through prayer, he is not saying just the prayers prior to the time when God gives him the grace, but all the prayers we will have done in our life. In other words, God foreknows our prayers in whole life and decides whether to give us gift of perseverance at some point in our life. This seems to make sense because it explains both why God gives us this grace and why we cannot know whether we have this grace.

But I am still not sure, as I am just a beginner, not an expert at all. Please feel free to tell me what you know or think. If you guys have any recommendation on resources that explains Augustine’s teachings very well, please let me know also!

By the way, link to the article: newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

 

[Shin]

I have read that it is a duty to pray every day for the grace of final perseverance.

How . . incalculably . . . important. . . a grace it is.

 

[brb3]

Yesterday I struggled painfully with St. Augustine’s “On the Predestination of the Saints (Book II)” also known as “On the Gift of Perseverance (to the End)”, until I went to a Eucharist Adoration in the late evening … so I would like to share with you what I have found out …

It seems that this article was written almost at his end of life, which means it can sound quite Calvinistic, provided, of course, that we are blinded of the doctrine of free will and other Augustine’s Catholic teachings.

In this article, St. Augustine talks about this grace of perseverance to the end, and claim it as an one-time gift from God which is given after our initial justification (by faith through grace) and before the end of our life. This grace is unable to be lost. And, as the name suggests, those who have this grace must persevere to the end. And those who do not have it must not persevere to the end.

Now I know that this sounds Calvinistic and at least Protestant. Fortunately, St. Augustine also teaches that this grace is external to faith, hope and love. even if these virtues are genuine. So this teaching is not a “faith alone” teaching. Therefore, he teaches further that this grace can and must be obtained through prayer, and that a person cannot know whether he has this grace until the end of his life.

Still, this sounds quite Calvinistic because St. Augustine indeed is teaching that at some point before our death, God, by his grace alone, assures some faithful to persevere to the end whatsoever and some others not to persevere whatsoever. Even if this grace is obtained by our prayer and cannot be known by us in this life, it still sounds like the P in TULIP …

One solution I came up with is that when St. Augustine says this grace can be granted through prayer, he is not saying just the prayers prior to the time when God gives him the grace, but all the prayers we will have done in our life. In other words, God foreknows our prayers in whole life and decides whether to give us gift of perseverance at some point in our life. This seems to make sense because it explains both why God gives us this grace and why we cannot know whether we have this grace.

But I am still not sure, as I am just a beginner, not an expert at all. Please feel free to tell me what you know or think. If you guys have any recommendation on resources that explains Augustine’s teachings very well, please let me know also!

By the way, link to the article: newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

Thanks for reference…will read and comment.

But, just to be sure, if we once a week pray for grace unto perseverance, and receive Eucharist weekly, …those Christ & Mary will not refuse. Persistence=Perseverance=Kingdom come, …on Earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[R_C]

Ok, calvinistic would imply double predestination. A calvinist idea would mean that not only a person is created with the purpose of ending in heaven, but also that a person is created with the purpose of ending in hell. That is a monstrosity, and Catholic doctrine has always rejected it, and so does St. Augustine, of course.

As for predestination - we believe in that. We believe that God knows since the beginning who will make it to heaven, and we also believe that He does freely grant special graces to some (for instance, we saw it clearly with Peter when the Lord says: “I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail.”). St. Thomas Aquinas expands on this topic as well.

But back to St. Augustine: we read that “when the saints say, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” [Matt. vi. 13] what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness?” - here, of course, he refers to the saints of the Church Militant, that is, the living faithful in state of grace. He then speaks of this special gift, and says:

For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them,–which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God’s gift, since it is asked of Him,–that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received.

He adds:

For we are speaking of that perseverance whereby one perseveres unto the end, and if this is given, one does persevere unto the end; but if one does not persevere unto the end, it is not given

I do not see any issue with God granting a special grace of perseverance in accordance with His will. This does not mean that a person would be saved no matter what, but, rather, that the person would be open to God’s grace in such ways as to never turn his back on Him, or to stand up immediately after a fall. Which is why - he says - the saints also pray “lead us not into temptation”, so that also occasions of sin may be taken away.

The article of the Catholic Encyclopedia on perseverantia finalis leads us to the considerations of the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent (based on the theology of St. Augustine and others) as to what the correct Catholic teaching is. There we read:

CHAPTER XIII.

On the gift of Perseverance.

So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God’s help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God’s grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

Canon 22 by teaching that the justified cannot persevere without a special help of God, but with it can persevere, not only condemns both the naturalism of the Semipelagians and the false supernaturalism of the Reformers but also clearly implies that the power of perseverance is neither in the human will alone nor in God’s grace solely, but in the combination of both, i.e., Divine grace aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine grace.

The Council of Trent, using an expression coined by St. Augustine, calls it the great gift of final perseverance. “It consists In an ever watchful superintendence of us on the part of our All-Merciful Lord, removing temptations which He sees will be fatal to us, succouring us at those times when we are in particular peril, whether from our negligence or other cause, and ordering the course of our life so that we may die at a time when He sees that we are in the state of grace.”

The supernatural character of such a gift is clearly asserted by Christ: “Holy Father, keep them in they name whom thou has given” (John 17:11); by St. Paul: “he, who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus” (Philippians 1:6); and by St. Peter: “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, will himself perfect you, and confirm you, and establish you” (1 Peter., v,10).

 

[brb3]

Augustine has written a Masterpiece !!
Anchored on the Lord’s Prayer & Eucharist…and, the Necessity that we pray for grace of Perseverance.

 

[poptown]

Thank you guys for all your helpful (name removed by moderator)uts (especially R_C and brb3)!

By saying some of the Augustine’s teachings sound Calvinistic I am not saying they are Calvinistic or they imply the whole system of Calvinism. Rather, these teachings have some Calvinistic characteristics, i.e. they resonate in considerable extent with one or two of the letters in TULIP. Here, Augustine’s teaching on grace of perseverance to the end seems to have a similarity with the the last two letters of TULIP.

Personally, I just think this teaching bothers me because, well, what is the last time you hear Catholicism telling you a grace that you cannot resist? Faith, hope, love … all these come from God’s graces, and all such graces are resistible by our free will which is fallible … except this grace of perseverance to the end! Catholicism also teaches that we are always capable of falling from our hope of salvation until the end of life; even we do pray that God will protect us so that we will not lose salvation, this does not necessarily mean we have to have assurance of our salvation, since the Church teaches that we don’t have, due to the fact that our free will is always playing its role.

Yet St. Augustine seems to teach the contrary … that our salvation is guaranteed by grace alone, one-time and irresistible, at some point of our life when we received this grace of perseverance to the end. Of course I am not saying this teaching is not Catholic. What I feel, however, is that this teaching is so unique compared to other teachings that without proper treatments, one may misunderstand this teaching, just like Calvin did …

Do you guys think this makes sense? Thank you.

 

[brb3]

Thank you guys for all your helpful (name removed by moderator)uts (especially R_C and brb3)!

By saying some of the Augustine’s teachings sound Calvinistic I am not saying they are Calvinistic or they imply the whole system of Calvinism. Rather, these teachings have some Calvinistic characteristics, i.e. they resonate in considerable extent with one or two of the letters in TULIP. Here, Augustine’s teaching on grace of perseverance to the end seems to have a similarity with the the last two letters of TULIP.

Personally, I just think this teaching bothers me because, well, what is the last time you hear Catholicism telling you a grace that you cannot resist? Faith, hope, love … all these come from God’s graces, and all such graces are resistible by our free will which is fallible … except this grace of perseverance to the end! Catholicism also teaches that we are always capable of falling from our hope of salvation until the end of life; even we do pray that God will protect us so that we will not lose salvation, this does not necessarily mean we have to have assurance of our salvation, since the Church teaches that we don’t have, due to the fact that our free will is always playing its role.

Yet St. Augustine seems to teach the contrary … that our salvation is guaranteed by grace alone, one-time and irresistible, at some point of our life when we received this grace of perseverance to the end. Of course I am not saying this teaching is not Catholic. What I feel, however, is that this teaching is so unique compared to other teachings that without proper treatments, one may misunderstand this teaching, just like Calvin did …

Do you guys think this makes sense? Thank you.

Think about it like this. Christ taught us the Lord’s Prayer & to receive him Often in the Eucharist. Those who do as Christ asked, are those who will persevere. The Church is our Ark…we stay aboard & reach shore safely.

Sheep follow the Shepherd in all matters, …Goats will eat anything, are independent minded, curious about everything, and don’t mind so well.

 

[R_C]

Well…Calvin came after s. Augustine, so I’d say it was he who distorted Augustinian theology (though it’s a supposition of mine).

Nobody says that we have an assurance of salvation. The point of the grace of final perseverance is that it is not only by our good works, but also by a special grace of God that we can persevere till the end. By ourselves, we would be unable to do so. This is also the reason for which faith, hope, and love are called supernatural theological virtues:

All virtues have as their final scope to dispose man to acts conducive to his true happiness. The happiness, however, of which man is capable is twofold, namely, natural, which is attainable by man’s natural powers, and supernatural, which exceeds the capacity of unaided human nature. Since, therefore, merely natural principles of human action are inadequate to a supernatural end, it is necessary that man be endowed with supernatural powers to enable him to attain his final destiny. Now these supernatural principles are nothing else than the theological virtues. The theological virtues are three: faith, hope, and charity.

As you see, already we affirm that there are things happening through the aid of God, which human nature alone would be unable to attain. However, the Council of Trent is very explicit: nobody can say that he has an assurance of salvation while in this life. However, we can be assured that all who are saved, are saved because they collaborated with God’s divine providence and received a special grace - nobody is saved by his works, nor by God’s independent action.

It is very easy to misunderstand this teaching. A very wise man, St. Ignatius of Loyola, wrote in the Spiritual Exercises (that such great good have done and do to so many souls):

Fourteenth Rule. Although there is much truth in the assertion that no one can save himself without being predestined and without having faith and grace; we must be very cautious in the manner of speaking and communicating with others about all these things.

Fifteenth Rule. We ought not, by way of custom, to speak much of predestination; but if in some way and at some times one speaks, let him so speak that the common people may not come into any error, as sometimes happens, saying: “Whether I have to be saved or condemned is already determined, and no other thing can now be, through my doing well or ill”; and with this, growing lazy, they become negligent in the works which lead to the salvation and the spiritual profit of their souls.

Ultimately we have all we need in the Gospels: Mary Magdalene and the thief hanging next to Christ were forgiven, thus giving hope to even the most wretched sinners; on the other hand St. Paul, a shining light of the Church, repeated time and again that he had to run the race as to win, lest after preaching to others he himself should be cast out…thus giving humbleness to even the most devout followers. It really doesn’t matter how this happens…as long as we keep “running as to win the race”, everyone can be saved! And that is a very important Catholic truth: every single man and woman is meant to be saved and become a saint.

 

[Goya]

Thank you guys for all your helpful (name removed by moderator)uts (especially R_C and brb3)!

By saying some of the Augustine’s teachings sound Calvinistic I am not saying they are Calvinistic or they imply the whole system of Calvinism. Rather, these teachings have some Calvinistic characteristics, i.e. they resonate in considerable extent with one or two of the letters in TULIP. Here, Augustine’s teaching on grace of perseverance to the end seems to have a similarity with the the last two letters of TULIP.

Personally, I just think this teaching bothers me because, well, what is the last time you hear Catholicism telling you a grace that you cannot resist? Faith, hope, love … all these come from God’s graces, and all such graces are resistible by our free will which is fallible … except this grace of perseverance to the end! Catholicism also teaches that we are always capable of falling from our hope of salvation until the end of life; even we do pray that God will protect us so that we will not lose salvation, this does not necessarily mean we have to have assurance of our salvation, since the Church teaches that we don’t have, due to the fact that our free will is always playing its role.

Yet St. Augustine seems to teach the contrary … that our salvation is guaranteed by grace alone, one-time and irresistible, at some point of our life when we received this grace of perseverance to the end. Of course I am not saying this teaching is not Catholic. What I feel, however, is that this teaching is so unique compared to other teachings that without proper treatments, one may misunderstand this teaching, just like Calvin did …

Do you guys think this makes sense? Thank you.

I too wrestled with the issue of pre-destination a few years ago–prompted by exchanges with Calvinists. I’m not so sure about your characterization of what St. Augustine taught. He did believe in and teach predestination–but he also championed free will. And my recollection of how he reconciled the two, was by pointing out that God is outside of time, and not bound by it. Hence when we understand predestination, we understand it in a temporal sense that…well, strikes us as a bit…itchy. We think–well, if the end result is known and predestined, then that must mean there is nothing we can do about it. But that’s not so–not from our perspective. We are fully endowed with free will, and can and must live according to the Gospel, honor and love God, seek Jesus, and ‘work out our own salvation with fear and trembling’ (Phil. 12:2), through the Church, the sacraments, etc.

***God may know how that plays out ultimately, with each individual–but we don’t. It’s simply not ours to know. ***

Hence the Catholic Church does believe in predestination (but not double pre-destination–as RC pointed out–)–and the elect, etc.–but for practical reasons, the Church simply doesn’t emphasize it. It just isn’t very helpful when spreading the Gospel, to suggest that it doesn’t matter what you do, since God already knows where you’re going to wind up. Much more beneficial–especially to the ‘flock’–to emphasize the free-will aspect–do your part, and leave to God, what is God’s (i.e.–omniscience, vis a vis your ultimate destination).

But the bottom line, is that it isn’t worth losing much sleep over. Our ultimate destination isn’t ours to know–but it is ours to fight for, with all our heart, mind, soul and being, and with every bit of our free will that we can muster (best accomplished by seeking to surrender it, back to God).

BTW: Great thread!

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Now I know that this sounds Calvinistic and at least Protestant. Fortunately, St. Augustine also teaches that this grace is external to faith, hope and love. even if these virtues are genuine. So this teaching is not a “faith alone” teaching. Therefore, he teaches further that this grace can and must be obtained through prayer, and that a person cannot know whether he has this grace until the end of his life.

Hi, Poptown. Forgive me for being years late replying. I have written a book on Christianity, most who think themselves “saved” have no idea what that means. It began as a refutation of OSAS (there are three views of that), and grew to include Universalism, Pre-Trib-Rapture, and several other views that are in conflict with Scripture. There are some “inflammatory claims” on the cover, such as – “This is the end of Calvinism, and Reformed Theology”.

Calvinists are the hardest to dissuade from their position; they generally have a “superior understanding” — saying, "I used to believe as you, until I (matured, was led by the Spirit, studied Scripture, etcetera). One must confront them with EVERY verse they use (my text cites fifty-five “Secondaries”, and four “Primaries”). Only by refuting the whole thing at once, can they be convinced.

What led me here is how they hold Augustine as “the founder of Calvinism” — although it was not really a doctrine until mid 1500’s. Early church fathers did NOT endorse “unfallible salvation”. I believe I’ve read about Augustine’s view, which also wasn’t really “unfallible”. I would like to explore further how he thought “you could not know”; did he not read 1John5:11-13?

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life…”

Ironically, in spite of their protests Calvinists can NOT say they are “truly elected” (like those in Luke8:15), and not just deceived “cruelly rejected” (like those in Luke8:13) who, though JOYFULLY thinking themselves saved, proved by falling that God never really wanted them.

<:-/

No, a Calvinist cannot know which he or she is, until the last moment of life.

R_C:

Ok, calvinistic would imply double predestination. A calvinist idea would mean that not only a person is created with the purpose of ending in heaven, but also that a person is created with the purpose of ending in hell. That is a monstrosity, and Catholic doctrine has always rejected it, and so does St. Augustine, of course.

It is absolutely monstrous – it impugns God’s character, and charges Him with SIN. Cited above from Luke8 is the “parable of the soils” — which it is not at all, it is a parable of PLANTS. But Calvinists claim that God makes the soil good OR BAD/WICKED (no one else could have done it!). This violates Matt12:35-31 (God’s house cannot be divided), violates 1Jn3:5 (in Him there is no sin!), and many others. Especially Him being “perfectly righteous”. He can have nothing to do with sin!

 

[Gadgeteer]

I have read that it is a duty to pray every day for the grace of final perseverance.

That is absolutely the most critical issue — as Jude said in 3:20-21, “building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love, waiting anxiously for the grace of God to eternal life”.



(…someone please “take me to task” for Jude having barely only ONE chapter?)

How . . incalculably . . . important. . . a grace it is.

Amen! It does not matter if someone is Catholic, Protestant, Messianic, or anything else – as long as he or she follows Jesus. Here is the deepest reality of Christianity – we persevere by our own faith (1Pet1:9), but by HIS STRENGTH.

Do you all know about Rom1:16-17? The Greek intends:

“The grace of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith.”

Beginning faith (“faith-the-start”), to ending faith (“faith-the-goal”).

"We must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For how shall we escape if we forsake so great a salvation?
Heb2:1-3

It is as you said, Shin.

 

[Gadgeteer]

I tried to edit my post – looks like there is a 20-minute window (that I missed)…

I have written a book on Christianity, most who think themselves “saved” have no idea what that means.

(edit):
It is not yet published, I’m trying to do some final polishing (like a brief comment on what Augustine really believed…) Hence my finding this thread.

Another edit:
No, a Calvinist cannot know which he or she is, until the last moment of life. That’s pretty fearful; and John tells us “there is no fear in love, perfect love casts out fear” (1Jn4:16-20).

Calvinists are not bad people; they mean well, and if one is knowledgeable enough in Scripture a Calvinist can be redirected slightly towards understanding what the writers really meant. It’s a bit like turning the tiller on a ship so that it’s aimed at the PORT.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Reading the linked page:

Augustine:

according to the exposition of the martyr Cyprian, by which exposition the enemies to this grace were convicted before they were born. He teaches that the grace of perseverance is not given according to the merits of the receivers, but to some it is given by God’s mercy; to others it is not given, by His righteous judgment. That it is inscrutable why, of adults, one rather than another should be called; just as, moreover, of two infants it is inscrutable why the one should be taken, the other left. But that it is still more inscrutable why, of two pious persons, to one it should be given to persevere, to the other it should not be given; but that this is most certain, that the former is of the predestinated, the latter is not.

Who was Cyprian?

The idea that “one is called but another is not”, is pure Calvinism. Please see John12:32 – Jesus, alluding to the “Bronze Serpent in the Wilderness” (John3:14 and Num21:9), states clearly as He is lifted up on the Cross He will draw all men to Himself. Calvinists propose that “all” does not mean all, but ”some of all types”. But Scripture clearly says salvation came to everyone; Titus2:11, very blatantly in Rom5:17-19 (justification is availed to the exact same number of men who became condemned!), and many other places. I like Acts17:26-31 — God makes sure that all men have the ability to seek Him and to find Him, He’s not far from anyone, Jesus’ crucifixion is proof to ALL MEN. Every person is commanded to repent (just as every person is commanded to love God!)

I was ashamed when I realized the connection between Rom10 and Deut30. It has been there for two thousand years, but I had missed it! Rm10:6 cites Deut30:12 directly, and Rom10:8 cites Deut30:14. Deuteronomy30:12 is a foundational refutation of Monergism (the basis of Calvinism). Together, the teaching is clear that “the word-of-faith” is put in EVERY heart and mouth, each can confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away disobey and perish. It’s not far from anyone!

Now, Augustine (or Cyprian whom Augustine seems to be quoting) thinks that Matt11:21-24 is “predestinary”. Actually, what Jesus said is one of the strongest oppositions to “Predestined Salvation”.

Augustine:

He observes that the mystery of predestination is set forth in our Lord’s words concerning the people of Tyre and Sidon, who would have repented if the same miracles had been done among them which had been done in Chorazin.

Absolutely not! Jesus is fully rebuking His audience (including peoples from Bethsaida, Chorazin and Capernaum) for having seen His miracles but still REFUSING to believe. First, establish that one can “believe because of seeing” – Jesus said so to Thomas (Jn20:29), and said so in John10:38. John stated that he wrote his testament to convince the reader to believe and have life, Jn20:31.

“Believe-because-of-seeing”, does not fit with “belief being sovereignly predestined by God”. Persuasion only works if we have freedom of choice. See Acts 26:28-29 where Paul tried to persuade King Agrippa!

No, Jesus was blasting His audience — “You see but refuse to believe; if Tyre, Sidon, and even SODOM had seen the miracles YOU have seen, they would have believed! You are so consciously disbelieving even when you’ve seen what they have not, that you will be judged harsher than they will be!”

Clearly Jesus’ current audience was more stubborn and hard-hearted than the ancient wicked cities…

What are everyone’s thoughts on this so far?

 

[Gadgeteer]

I too wrestled with the issue of pre-destination a few years ago–prompted by exchanges with Calvinists.

Hi, Goya – if you’re still reading this, I would really appreciate your thoughts on passages like Rom5:17-19 (condemnation came to all men [because all sinned, verse 12] – and with the exact equality, justification also came to the same “all men” as to whom condemnation came.

SO THEN all (came-condemnation), EVEN SO all (came justification!) Verse 17 says we have to RECEIVE God’s grace and gift of righteousness. Through all of the Scripture I’ve studied I never saw the idea of “God excluding (not wanting or calling) anyone”. In Matt22:2-14 — wasn’t everyone in view called, and each made his own choice?

And your thoughts on Acts17:26-31.

I’m not so sure about your characterization of what St. Augustine taught. He did believe in and teach predestination–but he also championed free will. And my recollection of how he reconciled the two, was by pointing out that God is outside of time, and not bound by it. Hence when we understand predestination, we understand it in a temporal sense that…well, strikes us as a bit…itchy.

What I see of “predestination”, JESUS was predestined (1Pet1:20-21). What Romans 8:28-35 declares is that those WHO LOVE God, are predestined (after choosing to love Him!) to be like Christ. Make sense?

In 1Cor13 is the most beautiful description of “love”, ever — verse 5 says, “love cannot demand (zeteo!) its own way”.

If God decides who loves Him back, then that’s absolutely “demanding His own way” – isn’t it? We have to be free to say “yes” or “no”, or it isn’t love…

We think–well, if the end result is known and predestined, then that must mean there is nothing we can do about it. But that’s not so–not from our perspective. We are fully endowed with free will, and can and must live according to the Gospel, honor and love God, seek Jesus, and ‘work out our own salvation with fear and trembling’ (Phil. 12:2)

Philip2:12 does say “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

…and the very next verse (13) says, “For it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and work according to His good purpose.”

The question is – is God in us apart from our prior faith? I do not see that; I see verses like Acts11:15-17, “God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit!) as He gave us, AFTER BELIEVING”.

Have you considered Paul’s words in Gal2:20? “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.”

Is that verse a “nice ideal” (but not really necessary)? Or is it central to Christianity?

***God may know how that plays out ultimately, with each individual–but we don’t. It’s simply not ours to know. ***

However we may disagree here – can we all agree on 1John5:11-13? Salvation is a gift of grace, given out of love. All other religions are based on doing good deeds — our faith is based on what HE did, alone, on the Cross. Because He paid the price (all of it!), it is not arrogant for you or I to say, “Yes I’m saved”. Right back to what you quoted in Philippians (good job, btw!) — God works in and through us, therefore the good deeds we do are HIM doing them through us.

That also reflects on Eph2:2-10 — we are God’s workmanship, created to walk in good deeds, which He has prepared beforehand that we might walk in them.

When Scripture says “we will be judged according to our deeds” (Rom2:6-11, Rev20:13), good deeds do not save us (neither do sins condemn us). Good deeds expose Jesus having been in our hearts, and unforgiven sins expose that He (and the Spirit) were NOT there.

Do we agree on this?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hence the Catholic Church does believe in predestination (but not double pre-destination–as RC pointed out–)–and the elect, etc.–but for practical reasons, the Church simply doesn’t emphasize it. It just isn’t very helpful when spreading the Gospel, to suggest that it doesn’t matter what you do, since God already knows where you’re going to wind up.

Someone — please explain to me what is the POINT of spreading the Gospel, if it is believed that God has already decided who lives and who dies? Why bother?

But we’re commanded to tell the world (Mark16:15). Jude tells us (23) to “save others, snatching them from the fire”. Are they in DANGER of fire? We have to believe Jude, don’t we? Besides, not only can we interfere for the SALVATION of people, if we’re not careful we can ruin brothers and sisters for whom Christ died! Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11, Matt23:13-15.

Much more beneficial–especially to the ‘flock’–to emphasize the free-will aspect–do your part, and leave to God, what is God’s (i.e.–omniscience, vis a vis your ultimate destination).

Yes — and — take your use of the word “flock”. Please read Acts20:28-31. Is the flock (us!) in danger from savage wolves, or not? Are even disciples in danger?

But the bottom line, is that it isn’t worth losing much sleep over. Our ultimate destination isn’t ours to know–but it is ours to fight for, with all our heart, mind, soul and being, and with every bit of our free will that we can muster (best accomplished by seeking to surrender it, back to God).

Well, again I look forward excitedly to your thoughts on this post, and some of the verses cited; especially 1Jn5:11-13. I know that Catholics do believe in “subsequent revelations”; but isn’t every word in the Scripture that we have, true? I only want to see things like these verses through your eyes.

BTW: Great thread!

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

It was a good thread; I hope no one is offended by my questions. How can we learn, if we don’t ask questions? What you say about “surrender to God” — is spot on. It reflects James4:6-10, Matt18:3-4, and many others. That’s really the whole question, isn’t it? “How real is God to each of us?”

God bless.

 

[Gadgeteer]

One solution I came up with is that when St. Augustine says this grace can be granted through prayer, he is not saying just the prayers prior to the time when God gives him the grace, but all the prayers we will have done in our life. In other words, God foreknows our prayers in whole life and decides whether to give us (the) gift of perseverance at some point in our life. This seems to make sense because it explains both why God gives us this grace and why we cannot know whether we have this grace.

If any of us (anyone here, or myself) — talks to a Calvinist — we have to know what they believe, and how to respond with what Scripture actually says. Above I highlighted a few words in red – that is the question, does God GIVE “perseverance”, to a few whom He chooses (and He withholds it from the rest)?

Perseverance is endurance; many verses say “he who endures to the end shall be saved”. And, “by your endurance save your souls”. Why would there be verses like these (Lk21:9, Mk13:13, Matt10:22, Matt24:13), if endurance is given BY God to a few and not to most?

Paul taught Timothy in 1:4:16 that he should be diligent to “abide in Jesus’ teachings, to persevere in these things; for as he did he would save himself”…

Consider:

“With gentleness correcting those who oppose, if perhaps God will grant them repentance towards knowledge of the truth.” 2Tim2:25

This is a verse that features prominently in the world of Calvinism. Does God grant repentance TO men? In Acts17:30 God commands all men everywhere to repent. Wait – which is it? God grants repentance TO a few? Or God demands repentance FROM all men? Isn’t Paul’s statement in Acts17 very silly, if repentance is actually something God decides for men (but not for most)?

Does God run a “two-handed game”, with the one hand instilling repentance and endurance and perseverance and even faith in a few favorites, and then with the other hand judging men for their own choices, as Rom2:6-8 seems to say?

Romans2:

[sup]4[/sup]"Do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
[sup]5[/sup]But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
[sup]6[/sup]who will render to each person according to his deeds.
[sup]7[/sup]to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
[sup]8[/sup]but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
[sup]9[/sup]There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
[sup]10[/sup]but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[sup]11[/sup]For there is no partiality with God.

Which direction do “repentance” and “perseverance” flow in that passage? Who chooses, and who responds to the choice? Calvinism is based on the idea that God REPENTS a few favorites (the rest are helplessly unrepentant), and that God FAITHS a few to salvation. Consider:

“For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.” Rom12:3

This is another verse Calvinists perceive to teach “God gives saving-faith to a few whom He has elected/favored”.

How would you answer these verses? What do you think they mean – that is, what did Paul intend to convey?

 

[Goya]

Someone — please explain to me what is the POINT of spreading the Gospel, if it is believed that God has already decided who lives and who dies? Why bother?

…

Just saw your posts reviving this 4 year old thread…

Lot’s of compelling questions, though not much time–I’ll only address this one, for now.

The point, as I suggested above, is to recognize our own limitations as human beings, and not to concern ourselves with what is exclusively the Lord’s domain. Specifically, according to our humanity, we are temporally limited, and anything we do, consider, or view, if viewed through the spectrum of time.

The Gospel speaks to us in our own language, understanding our temporal existence.

Hence the point of teaching the Gospel, without regard to the FACT that God knows our destiny, is the more compelling FACT from our vantage point, based upon our limited humanity, that we do not know our own destiny, and that what determines that destiny is a function of God the Father’s infinite Mercy and Love, through redemption by His Son, guided and empowered by His Holy Spirit, and our own response thereto and acceptance thereof, according to the exercise of our Free Will (best discharged by surrendering same back to God, that it may serve His Holy Will).

Conversely, how can God be said to be omniscient, and omnipotent, the Creator of time itself, who can see as far into the future as there is future (as surely as He can see into the past, as far as there is past), for He has authored it (both), but somehow not know your destiny…upon your conception, let alone creation?

TBL, as I indicated above, the confusion stems from seeking to know what God only can know, and attempting to govern oneself according to such knowledge.

That is why the very notion is down played by the Church.

(…and still baffling to me why the Calvinists insist on emphasizing this point, while failing to see how inherently arrogant it is to proclaim to be of ‘the Elect’, and to pretend to know this (which only God could possibly know), and therefore how dangerous it can be).

God bless…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Just saw your posts reviving this 4 year old thread…

Some of us are slow.

Lot’s of compelling questions, though not much time–I’ll only address this one, for now.

The point, as I suggested above, is to recognize our own limitations as human beings, and not to concern ourselves with what is exclusively the Lord’s domain. Specifically, according to our humanity, we are temporally limited, and anything we do, consider, or view, if viewed through the spectrum of time.

Agreed…

The Gospel speaks to us in our own language, understanding our temporal existence.

Hence the point of teaching the Gospel, without regard to the FACT that God knows our destiny, is the more compelling FACT from our vantage point, based upon our limited humanity, that we do not know our own destiny, and that what determines that destiny is a function of God the Father’s infinite Mercy and Love, through redemption by His Son, guided and empowered by His Holy Spirit, and our own response thereto and acceptance thereof, according to the exercise of our Free Will (best discharged by surrendering same back to God, that it may serve His Holy Will).

“Foreknow” (proginosko in Rom8), is not fore-CAUSE. Causality is the question concerning Calvinism.

God knows the future; but who actually makes the choice? By your words, you and I agree that Scripture says “we have free will, (by) OUR OWN RESPONSE and ACCEPTANCE”.

Jesus in John7:17, “if anyone is willing to do My will”. Rev22:17, “let whosoever will take of the water of life freely”.

Conversely, how can God be said to be omniscient, and omnipotent, the Creator of time itself, who can see as far into the future as there is future (as surely as He can see into the past, as far as there is past), for He has authored it (both), but somehow not know your destiny…upon your conception, let alone creation?

TBL, as I indicated above, the confusion stems from seeking to know what God only can know, and attempting to govern oneself according to such knowledge.

That is why the very notion is down played by the Church.

(…and still baffling to me why the Calvinists insist on emphasizing this point, while failing to see how inherently arrogant it is to proclaim to be of ‘the Elect’, and to pretend to know this (which only God could possibly know), and therefore how dangerous it can be).

My question was — if God has predetermined everything (and surely “no one can thwart God’s sovereign will”), then why bother to preach if all He’s ordained to be saved will be saved anyway, and all He’s destined to perish will be destroyed no matter how hard one tries or prays?

There are so many passages that speak of “free will”. Rom10:14-17 is one; “how can one believe in what he has not heard, and how can he hear without a preacher? So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Clearly stated, availability of preachers affects who will be saved. That aligns with Jude23, “save others snatching them from the fire”; yes they are in danger of fire, and yes we can snatch them to Jesus.

still baffling to me why the Calvinists insist on emphasizing this point, while failing to see how inherently arrogant it is to proclaim to be of ‘the Elect’,

Calvinists deny that they CANNOT KNOW they are “truly elect”. In Lk8:13 are those who really wanted to be saved, they believed joyfully; but under temptation (persecution or affliction in Mk4:9), they fall away. Therefore Calvinists claim “well they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place”.

Huh?

Would not those in Lk8:13 have joyfully CLAIMED to have been saved, as emphatically as any Calvinist today does? YES!

How then can a Calvinist know he’s truly-elected (like those in Lk8:15, who WILL persevere and bear fruit) — and not just a deluded falsely-joyful cruelly-rejected (like those in Lk8:13 who one day by apostasy will prove they were never ACTUALLY saved or wanted by God)?

How can a Calvinist know which he or she is? They cannot! Not until the last moment alive (proving by perseverance-until-death, or falling-away, which they actually were!).

God bless…

And you; I am honored by your reply.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Calvinists emphatically claim mankind has “free will”. But this reflects an understanding called “Compatibilism”; a doctrine necessitated to try to insulate God from causality of sin.

If a man is regenerated (so Compatibilism contends), then his nature is changed and he freely wills according to his nature ONLY to believe and be saved; but if left unregenerated, then he freely wills ONLY to disbelieve and perish.

And that violates many verses, such as Lk8:13 we just discussed; these people absolutely DID desire salvation, they believed joyfully. They did what Calvinism says they cannot do!