St Augustine on Salvation By Faith Alone

[Porknpie]

This fits entirely into the Lutheran understanding of justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

To paraphrase Luther, one cannot separate faith and works any more thon one could separate heat and light from a flame. But it is faith, alone, that saves.

Steido, really not trying to “getcha”. I do read St Augustine’s words as as saying that salvation comes from a faith working in love, and (clearly) not by faith alone. And the Saint quotes from St. Paul in supporting his argument.

Did Luther profess that that good works are recompensed [reward] with eternal life?

“This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God”

St. Augustine then echoes scripture

“By grace are ye saved through faith;

And then comments that St Paul had concern that some would take this verse to mean that salvation by faith alone suffices.

[St. Paul] saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them;

St. Augustine is saying that one is saved by a faith working in love, not by faith alone. Without works of love, faith is dead. And a dead faith can not save. He makes this point clear here too:

the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life.

He says again that that eternal life is the recompense of living the good life (a faith living in love)

…grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace;

Please clarify. Are St. Augustine’s words consistent with Luther and Lutheranism?

 

[steido01]

Is faith without good works sufficient for salvation?

What is faith that bears no fruit? Lutherans do not support “cheap grace.” Faith has a cost and produces good works.

Your question is one that a Catholic might ask, but not one that computes to a Lutheran.

 

[steido01]

Actually, in that very letter Melanchthon explains this–that he cites Augustine for public consumption because of Augustine’s authority. And to be sure, he thinks Augustine is more on his side than on that of the "Papists."

Well, I’ll agree with Phil there.

But I think it’s a euphemism to say that the difference is bout Augustine being “clear.” Augustine, as Melanchthon recognizes in that latter, has a coherent understanding of how salvation works that is substantially different from the Lutheran view.

I am unable to see how that particular part of Augustine’s theology is different from the Tridentine view.

The main points where the Protestants could claim Augustine was on

1. Concupiscence being sin even in the baptized, but not imputed (Augustine had no doctrine of “positive imputation”), and
2. Free will, though that one is more complicated.

Maybe I have misunderstood. I am not as well-read as you when it comes to Augustine’s actual works. If Augustine erred, then he erred. If Augustine did share the faith-working-through-love position that Benedict XVI would later articulate so clearly, then he is already closer to the Lutheran concept of Faith Alone than the simplistic Works Righteousness that swallowed much of the Church by Luther’s time and, sadly, persists even today in some places. Maybe it is a stretch, but sometimes I think it’s possible for Faith Alone and Faith/Love to be reconciled. Maybe.

I’ll continue to put a charitable reading on Augustine, because I think he does generally frame Paul correctly, and an aid to understanding Scripture should never be discounted, even if it’s off a tick.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Is faith without good works sufficient for salvation?

The 39 Articles put it this way (which Lutherans would agree with on this point):

XI. Of the Justification of Man.
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

XII. Of Good Works.
Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God’s judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.

 

[Contarini]

Well, I’ll agree with Phil there.

Maybe I have misunderstood. I am not as well-read as you when it comes to Augustine’s actual works. If Augustine erred, then he erred. If Augustine did share the faith-working-through-love position that Benedict XVI would later articulate so clearly, then he is already closer to the Lutheran concept of Faith Alone than the simplistic Works Righteousness that swallowed much of the Church by Luther’s time and, sadly, persists even today in some places. Maybe it is a stretch, but sometimes I think it’s possible for Faith Alone and Faith/Love to be reconciled. Maybe.

Well, I certainly think that, but I’m an ecumenical nut.

I question whether a “simplistic works righteousness” had really swallowed most of the Church in Luther’s time. But certainly there was a range of views including some that Catholics from Trent on would agree were Semi-Pelagian. And all the views tended to be framed in a very legalistic way, which as I see it was the real problem.

Edwin

 

[alwayswill]

If you have true faith it follows that you will do the works. If through your faith you know God’s will, wouldn’t you want to do it out of love for Him? If your faith is strong and true could you sit by and do nothing about the evil and suffering you see in the world everyday. Just believing there is a God is not faith, its just logic.

Agreed:
Sola Fide proclaiming Christians do not believe mere mental assent saves.

Sola Fide proclaiming Christians do not believe that a faith that is a gift from God is a useless faith , it is the faith of demons or is a dead faith.

True faith only comes from God.
The faith that comes from God saves.

 

[alwayswill]

Is faith without good works sufficient for salvation?

There is not such thing a faith that comes from God that does not lead to the desire to do good works.

If you tell me you have faith and but have no good works then I know you have a dead , useless faith, the same faith as demons and I know that faith did not come God.

 

[alwayswill]

I have tried many times to understand the Faith Alone view. The underlined above is why it seems to be contradictory. If they can’t be separated, than faith can’t be “alone” to save.

it is a matter of cause and effect

They are connected as a cause and effect are connected.

The doctrine of Faith Alone holds that:
A faith that is a gift from God leads to salvation and good works.

The doctrine of Faith Alone rejects:
Faith and good works lead to salvation.

I hope that simple explanation helps.
I can go deeper if needed

 

[Contarini]

I have tried many times to understand the Faith Alone view. The underlined above is why it seems to be contradictory. If they can’t be separated, than faith can’t be “alone” to save.

Edit:

Heat=Works
Light=Faith
Flame=Saving/Justification

If it is Light alone, there is no Flame.

The ablative (sola fide, not sola fides) is important. It’s justification by faith alone.

Protestants do not believe in “faith alone,” but that faith is the sole instrument by which we receive Christ’s righteousness that makes us acceptable to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, believe that faith can exist on its own, and believe (as do Protestants–at least mainstream, historic Protestants) that such a faith that can exist on its own does not save. (The difference is that Protestants would say that such “faith” is “false faith.”)

Edwin

 

[alwayswill]

The ablative (sola fide, not sola fides) is important. It’s justification by faith alone.

Protestants do not believe in “faith alone,” but that faith is the sole instrument by which we receive Christ’s righteousness that makes us acceptable to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, believe that faith can exist on its own, and believe (as do Protestants–at least mainstream, historic Protestants) that such a faith that can exist on its own does not save. (The difference is that Protestants would say that such “faith” is “false faith.”)

Edwin

agreed:
If your faith didn’t change you then your faith didn’t save you.

A dead faith doesn’t save
A useless faith doesn’t save
the faith of demons doesn’t save
mere mental assent doesn’t save.
a “faith” that is the spiritual equivalence of faithlessness does not save

Any faith that doesn’t come from God will not save
Only the gift of faith that does come from God saves.

The lack of works in love is a characteristic and proof of not receiving a saving faith that is a gift from God.

 

[rcwitness]

agreed:
If your faith didn’t change you then your faith didn’t save you.

A dead faith doesn’t save
A useless faith doesn’t save
the faith of demons doesn’t save
mere mental assent doesn’t save.
a “faith” that is the spiritual equivalence of faithlessness does not save

Any faith that doesn’t come from God will not save
Only the gift of faith that does come from God saves.

The lack of works in love is a characteristic and proof of not receiving a saving faith that is a gift from God.

Without completely disagreeing with you, I still have to ask you something that I think I have before. I think you are right, that only faith that comes from God saves. Where we disagree, is if that faith alone is sufficient to keep us in salvation. Think of this faith as a mustard seed. It must grow and produce fruit.

Now, my question is: What kind of faith is St Peter talking about in this passage? He tells us to add to it other virtues, otherwise we are blind, and forget what has forgiven us.

2 Peter 1
For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.8For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9*For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

 

[alwayswill]

Without completely disagreeing with you, I still have to ask you something that I think I have before. I think you are right, that only faith that comes from God saves. Where we disagree, is if that faith alone is sufficient to keep us in salvation. Think of this faith as a mustard seed. It must grow and produce fruit.

Now, my question is: What kind of faith is St Peter talking about in this passage? He tells us to add to it other virtues, otherwise we are blind, and forget what has forgiven us.

2 Peter 1
For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.8For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9*For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

the answer to your question about the kind of faith Peter is writing about about in 2 Peter depends on to whom is Peter writing.

The answer is in verse 10…

He is writing to the elect…

If it is impossible for the Elect not to be saved at the end (Catholicism **does **teach that) then those verses CANNOT be about the elect losing their salvation.

“10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election”

The elect are the elect even if they temporarily stumble and forget what God has commanded and what Christ has done.

And now I ask you
Do you make every effort to confirm your calling and election?

I do

 

[rcwitness]

the answer to your question about the kind of faith Peter is writing about about in 2 Peter depends on to whom is Peter writing.

The answer is in verse 10…

He is writing to the elect…

If it is impossible for the Elect not to be saved at the end (Catholicism **does **teach that) then those verses CANNOT be about the elect losing their salvation.

“10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election”

And now I ask you
Do you make every effort to confirm your calling and election?

I do

Of course I do! as everyone should. Hopefully, I fulfill my duty to love Him and keep His commandments.

So, basically your answer is: the Elect are those who are saved IN THE END.

 

[alwayswill]

Of course I do! as everyone should. Hopefully, I fulfill my duty to love Him and keep His commandments.

So, basically your answer is: the Elect are those who are saved IN THE END.

yep, every one of those that are saved in the end (Have eternal life) are the elect
and everyone of the elect are those that are saved at the end.(Have eternal life).
Peter was addressing the elect

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Eternal is not temporary:
If you have it; it doesn’t end

so I ask you; do you know that you have eternal life?
I do

 

[Wesrock]

agreed:
If your faith didn’t change you then your faith didn’t save you.

A dead faith doesn’t save
A useless faith doesn’t save
the faith of demons doesn’t save
mere mental assent doesn’t save.
a “faith” that is the spiritual equivalence of faithlessness does not save

Any faith that doesn’t come from God will not save
Only the gift of faith that does come from God saves.

The lack of works in love is a characteristic and proof of not receiving a saving faith that is a gift from God.

A man can have real faith and grace from God and lose it. A man can whither away spiritually by not cooperating in works of love and earning merit and increasing his righteousness therein. You speak as if God simply sends saving faith and sweeps us off our feet for the rest of our lives.

“I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27)

You can know with certainty that if you persist in the grace of God you will be saved, but that is different than assurance that you are among the elect who will be saved. Saint Paul did not believe he possessed such assurance. You cannot know that you will not fall away after having received real grace from God. You cannot know that you are among the elect, save by private revelation direct from God.

 

[alwayswill]

A man can have real faith and grace from God and lose it. A man can whither away spiritually by not cooperating in works of love and earning merit and increasing his righteousness therein. You speak as if God simply sends saving faith and sweeps us off our feet for the rest of our lives.

That is exactly what God does: 100% God 0 % man
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”

Ezekiel 36
25"Then** I will** sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;** I will** cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover,** I will** give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

amen and amen

You can know with certainty that if you persist in the grace of God you will be saved, but that is different than assurance that you are among the elect who will be saved. Saint Paul did not believe he possessed such assurance. You cannot know that you will not fall away after having received real grace from God. You cannot know that you are among the elect, save by private revelation direct from God.

not true:
I believe the promises of God

God wants me to know!!

1 John 5:13
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may **know **that you have eternal life.”
I know

God wants me to confirm!

1 Peter 1:10
“Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”
I confirm

I understand why you can’t accept that:

Canon XV. If any one shall say, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound
of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinated; let him be
anathema.

I believe I am assuredly in the number of the predestinated;
because of the promises of God:

I am not cursed:
I am blessed.

I pray that those who are truly saved will one day know the joy that comes from blessed assurance.

 

[Duane1966]

That is exactly what God does: 100% God 0 % man
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”

Ezekiel 36
25"Then** I will** sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;** I will** cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover,** I will** give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

amen and amen

not true:
I believe the promises of God

God wants me to know!!

1 John 5:13
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may **know **that you have eternal life.”
I know

God wants me to confirm!

1 Peter 1:10
“Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.”
I confirm

I understand why you can’t accept that:

Canon XV. If any one shall say, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound
of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinated; let him be
anathema.

I asked you twice on another thread, which you never answered. I ask you now a third time. Do you know for certain you are one of the elect?

 

[alwayswill]

I asked you twice on another thread, which you never answered. I ask you now a third time. Do you know for certain you are one of the elect?

I would never knowingly avoid a question like that
absolutely! I am certain I am one of the elect

( as much as any fallible human can know anything for sure)

“If one finds that he is walking in the light (1:7), confessing his sins (1:9), obeying Christ’s commands (2:3-5; 5:2,3), loving fellow believers (2:9-11; 3:14-17; 5:1), believing in Jesus as the incarnate God (2:22,23; 4:1-6; 5:1,5), and practicing righteousness (2:29; 3:6-10) - he can be assured by ‘these things’ that he has eternal life.”

 

[Wesrock]

I would never knowingly avoid a question like that
absolutely! I am certain I am one of the elect

( as much as any fallible human can know anything for sure)

“If one finds that he is walking in the light (1:7), confessing his sins (1:9), obeying Christ’s commands (2:3-5; 5:2,3), loving fellow believers (2:9-11; 3:14-17; 5:1), believing in Jesus as the incarnate God (2:22,23; 4:1-6; 5:1,5), and practicing righteousness (2:29; 3:6-10) - he can be assured by ‘these things’ that he has eternal life.”

And what if in five years you were to stop walking in the light, confessing your sins, obeying Christ’s commands, loving fellow believers, believing in Jesus as the incarnate God, and practicing righteousness?

We have the proper guidance available to determine if we are on “the way” or not, but we cannot be assured we will not stray, as even Paul feared he might. To quote Thomas Aquinas:

[7] This excludes the error of certain heretics who say that man, after he has received the grace of the Spirit, is unable to sin, and that, if he sins, he never had the grace of the Holy Spirit.

[8] They take, however, as a prop for their error the saying of 1 Corinthians (13:8): “Charity never falls away.” And 1 John (3:6, 9) says: “Whosoever abides in Him sins not; and whosoever sins has not seen Him nor known Him.” And later on, more expressly: “Whosoever is born of God commits not sin; for His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin use he is born of God.”

[9] But for establishing their proposition these texts are not effective. For one does not say: “charity never falls away” on the ground that he who has charity does not sometimes lose it, since the Apocalypse (2:4) says: “I have somewhat against you because you hast left your first charity.” But “charity never falls away” was said because, when all other gifts of the Holy Spirit (which essentially contain some imperfection—the spirit of prophecy, for example, and this kind of thing) “shall be made void… when that which is perfect is come” (1 Cor. 13:8, 10), then in that state of perfection charity shall abide.

[10] But the remarks taken from the Epistle of John are said for this reason: The gifts of the Holy Spirit by which a man is adopted or born again as a son of God have of themselves power enough to be able to preserve a man without sin, and a man cannot sin who lives by those gifts. He can, for all that, act against them, and sin by departing from them. For “whosoever is born of God… cannot sin” was said just as though one should say that “the hot cannot cool.” What is hot, nevertheless, can be made cool, and then it will make cool. Or it was said as though one should say that “the just man does no unjust things”; namely, in so far as he is just.

…

[6] . . . It seems superfluous to warn those not to sin who cannot sin. But in the evangelical and apostolic teaching the faithful are so admonished, although they have already received the grace of the Holy Spirit through the sacraments, for we read in Hebrews (12:15): “Looking diligently, lest any man be wanting to the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder”; and in Ephesians (4:30): “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed”; and again: “He that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10). Even the Apostle himself says of himself: “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27). Therefore, men are not rendered impeccable by the grace received in the sacraments.

 

[Duane1966]

I would never knowingly avoid a question like that
absolutely! I am certain I am one of the elect

( as much as any fallible human can know anything for sure)

“If one finds that he is walking in the light (1:7), confessing his sins (1:9), obeying Christ’s commands (2:3-5; 5:2,3), loving fellow believers (2:9-11; 3:14-17; 5:1), believing in Jesus as the incarnate God (2:22,23; 4:1-6; 5:1,5), and practicing righteousness (2:29; 3:6-10) - he can be assured by ‘these things’ that he has eternal life.”

Do you know you will do all these things until the end?