St Augustine on Salvation By Faith Alone

[Cathoholic]

Alwyaswill. Attempting to make the case for “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) you said in post 133 . . . . .

QUOTE:

Romans 8
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Is there any who were justified that will not be glorified?

it comes down to this:

If you think that ultimately, you get to chose to be saved;
then it would follow that ultimately, you get to chose to be UN-saved;

I reject both on Biblical grounds

First of all, I am going to take a portion of the second objection of yours first.

QUOTE:

it comes down to this:

If you think that ultimately, you get to chose to be saved; . . . .

I just want to clarify something here as your statement could be read to have a built-in false premise regarding Catholicism.

Catholics don’t “choose” on their own to be saved. They “choose” to be saved” to be sure, but not on their own accord.

And the other clarification I want to make about your statement is Catholics AFFIRM God’s prevenient grace. We assert God makes the first move towards us. God gives us graces to draw us to Him.

And if by our free will, we respond to those graces, God gives us MORE Graces–God gives us the Grace of salvation through being “born again” or being “born from above” or being “born of water AND the Spirit”.

OK?

Now concerning Romans 8 that you quoted.

Romans 8
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Is there any who were justified that will not be glorified?

Are YOU saying all he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he MIGHT be the firstborn among many brothers.

=

all he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he MUST be the firstborn among many brothers.

Are you saying that Jesus’ “brethren” or “many brothers” who all have God as their Father, infallibly will be called, justified and eventually glorified?

I want to get that clarified from you because to get to your OSAS interpretation, you need to ADD to Sacred Scripture things that are not there, and DENY things that ARE there.

So I repeat:

Are you saying that Jesus’ “brethren” or “many brothers” who all have God as their Father, infallibly will be called, justified and eventually glorified?

 

[Porknpie]

Paul is referring to people-groups (ie Jews or Gentiles) not individuals. Paul was talking about the nation/people of Israel being cut off and the Gentiles being grafted in.

Yes, he’s certainly speaking of the Gentiles and Jews as peoples, but also to individuals. One can be a member of a people’s but lack kindness, charity, and be “cut off.”

Interesting that “kindness” or lack there of, is the cause of one be grafted on OR cut off.

“Kindness” is a individual attribute and rebukes the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Or do you disgree? Thoughts?

Note: from the Aquinas study bible below, text highlighted on individual falling.

— We see here, that he who standeth by faith, may fall from it; and therefore must live in fear, and not in the vain presumption and security of modern sectaries. (Challoner) — The apostle here exhorts the converted Gentiles, to fear lest they fall, and bring upon themselves a punishment similar to that of the Jews. The Jews were his chosen people, the children of the alliance; they have now been stripped of all; the same may also happen to you. You may fall into presumption and incredulity; if you remain firm, it is not by your own merits or works, but by faith, the pure gift of God. Neither faith, nor vocation, nor grace, are inadmissible. You may lose all; and therefore ought always to fear and live in humility. If God has not spared the natural branches, fear, lest he should not spare you. (ver. 21.) (Calmet) — The Gentiles are here admonished not to be proud, nor to glory over the Jews; but to take occasion rather from their fall to fear and to be humble, lest they be cast off. Not that the whole Church of Christ can ever fall from him; having been secured by so many divine promises in holy writ; but that each one in particular may fall; and therefore all in general are to be admonished to beware of that, which may happen to any one in particular. (Challoner)

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, he’s certainly speaking of the Gentiles and Jews as peoples, but also to individuals. One can be a member of a people’s but lack kindness, charity, and be “cut off.”

Interesting that “kindness” or lack there of, is the cause of one be grafted on OR cut off.

“Kindness” is a individual attribute and rebukes the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Or do you disgree? Thoughts?

Note: from the Aquinas study bible below, text highlighted on individual falling.

— We see here, that he who standeth by faith, may fall from it; and therefore must live in fear, and not in the vain presumption and security of modern sectaries. (Challoner) — The apostle here exhorts the converted Gentiles, to fear lest they fall, and bring upon themselves a punishment similar to that of the Jews. The Jews were his chosen people, the children of the alliance; they have now been stripped of all; the same may also happen to you. You may fall into presumption and incredulity; if you remain firm, it is not by your own merits or works, but by faith, the pure gift of God. Neither faith, nor vocation, nor grace, are inadmissible. You may lose all; and therefore ought always to fear and live in humility. If God has not spared the natural branches, fear, lest he should not spare you. (ver. 21.) (Calmet) — The Gentiles are here admonished not to be proud, nor to glory over the Jews; but to take occasion rather from their fall to fear and to be humble, lest they be cast off. Not that the whole Church of Christ can ever fall from him; having been secured by so many divine promises in holy writ; but that each one in particular may fall; and therefore all in general are to be admonished to beware of that, which may happen to any one in particular. (Challoner)

I think that the phrase “fear God” is tricky. It’s meaning was more accurately developed with the New Covenant relationship Which Jesus established on Love.

1 John 4
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us. If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.

The fear of God, I believe, comes from the Natural Law and our Conscience. It is right and good, and is not neglected. But it eventually leads to the knowledge of God’s grace and love, which we are able to share in by the Spirit of the Father and Son.

This Spirit was brought to us through Jesus, not because of any good work we had done. In fact, it was brought through (on account of His doing) our evil works, which crucified the Son!

So the Natural man can follow his conscience to fear the Lord and be Justified. And the man who knows the Gospel, can love God and be Justified. But the man would does not love God or his brother, is not justified. The man who loves God and brother is justified apart from works, since God fit loved him, and also justified by enduring with the hardships of the Way and keeping His Commandments.

 

[Porknpie]

I think that the phrase “fear God” is tricky. It’s meaning was more accurately developed with the New Covenant relationship Which Jesus established on Love.

1 John 4
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us. If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.

The fear of God, I believe, comes from the Natural Law and our Conscience. It is right and good, and is not neglected. But it eventually leads to the knowledge of God’s grace and love, which we are able to share in by the Spirit of the Father and Son.

This Spirit was brought to us through Jesus, not because of any good work we had done. In fact, it was brought through (on account of His doing) our evil works, which crucified the Son!

So the Natural man can follow his conscience to fear the Lord and be Justified. And the man who knows the Gospel, can love God and be Justified. But the man would does not love God or his brother, is not justified. The man who loves God and brother is justified apart from works, since God fit loved him, and also justified by enduring with the hardships of the Way and keeping His Commandments.

Agree. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge (Prov 1:7)

 

[rcwitness]

Agree. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge (Prov 1:7)

Yes, “fear of the Lord” is the beginning of wisdom, and love of God and neighbor is the gift of God. Knowing that we are able to love, purely and pleasingly to Him, because He first loved us is knowing the Truth.

 

[Contarini]

I think the language of Trent is definitely “funny” and a little foreign to us these days. What does this article mean by the “impious”?

By this definition:
lacking in reverence or proper respect (as for God or one’s parents)

So it seams to refer to a vain faith, or something. How could an irreverence for God be a proper reception of God’s Grace? It’s kinda funny that Trent even speaks like this, since it’s stating the obvious.

Don’t go by the standard modern English translation. A lot of older translations of Latin texts just use the English cognate for the Latin, which may not be what the word means now.

“Impious” in this context means “lacking in sanctifying grace,” or “ungodly.” I.e., someone in a state of original sin before baptism or of mortal sin after baptism.

Edwin

 

[rcwitness]

Don’t go by the standard modern English translation. A lot of older translations of Latin texts just use the English cognate for the Latin, which may not be what the word means now.

“Impious” in this context means “lacking in sanctifying grace,” or “ungodly.” I.e., someone in a state of original sin before baptism or of mortal sin after baptism.

Edwin

Yes. I think language and terms evolve with culture, and needs to be addressed in every age. And taking a sentence or two out of context is unfair. That’s what I felt alwayswill did. In context that sentence seemed to only support what he has been chanting all along; that faith that converts saves, not simply mental assent. But I acknowledge that mental assent has its role and contribution in the process of salvation, faith and learning.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Which part Starwars?

all of it , we are saved by grace through faith which works through love , this is precisely what grace alone and faith alone teach

 

[rcwitness]

all of it , we are saved by grace through faith which works through love , this is precisely what grace alone and faith alone teach

So those doctrines don’t strictly mean “alone”? Virtues of brotherly love must be “added”? And obedience to His commands must be fulfilled?

I don’t pit these against faith, but completing faith. Uncompleted faith has forgotten what had previously accounted one justified.

 

[Porknpie]

all of it , we are saved by grace through faith which works through love , this is precisely what grace alone and faith alone teach

As long as you affirm that we are saved by:

• Grace
• Through Faith
• Working in Love

Then I give you



Scripture never says that we are saved by faith alone. It’s always by a faith working in love. Faith is made complete by works. Without works, faith is incomplete.