St. Augustine on the papacy

[clmowry]

It says exactly that. A council chaired by the pope passed judgement on the Donatist and St Augustine says that an appeal can be made to an ecumenical council and that if found wrong “their decisions might be reversed.” My friend you are grasping at straws blindfolded if you think that doesn’t contradict modern Catholic teaching.

Unless of course you are saying that there are instances where a papal sentence can be reversed by a council?

This is not a “council” chaired by the pope. No doctrine is being defined.

There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that say the Pope [nor councils nor tribunals] will not err in every decision that it makes.

“Infallibility” Papal or counciliar is limited to issue of doctrine.

This tribunal does not deal with such issues.

So I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

Chuck

 

[josephdaniel29]

This is not a “council” chaired by the pope. No doctrine is being defined.

There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that say the Pope [nor councils nor tribunals] will not err in every decision that it makes.

“Infallibility” Papal or counciliar is limited to issue of doctrine.

This tribunal does not deal with such issues.

So I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

Chuck

This has nothing to do with infallibility per se. Certainly the tribunal (if you prefer) was chaired by the Bishop of Rome. That tribunal passed a sentence approved by the Pope. Pastor aeternus states…

The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon.

St Augustine clearly contradicts this when he says…

"Well, let us suppose that those bishops (including the Pope) who decided the case at Rome were not good judges; there still remained a plenary Council of the universal Church, in which these judges themselves might be put on their defence; so that, if they were convicted of mistake, their decisions might be reversed."

Here we have a Pope passing a sentence via the tribunal he chaired. Pastor aeternus states there is no appeal from a sentence of the Roman Pontiff. St Augustine says there is an appeal to an ecumenical council. According to the teachings of the First Vatican Council St Augustine would be a rank heretic.

In Christ
Joe

 

[clmowry]

Here we have a Pope passing a sentence via the tribunal he chaired. Pastor aeternus states there is no appeal from a sentence of the Roman Pontiff. St Augustine says there is an appeal to an ecumenical council. According to the teachings of the First Vatican Council St Augustine would be a rank heretic.

Could you reference the pronouncement of the Pope that would be subject to appeal to an ecumenical council for me.

Thanks,

Chuck

 

[josephdaniel29]

Could you reference the pronouncement of the Pope that would be subject to appeal to an ecumenical council for me.

Thanks,

Chuck

Read the links I provided earlier.

 

[clmowry]

Read the links I provided earlier.

I did I must have missed the papal pronouncement. Maybe you could point it out.

Chuck

 

[josephdaniel29]

I did I must have missed the papal pronouncement. Maybe you could point it out.

Chuck

On 2 October, 313, there assembled in the Lateran Palace, under the presidency of Miltiades, a synod of eighteen bishops from Gaul and Italy, which, after thoroughly considering the Donatist controversy for three days, decided in favor of Cæcilian, whose election and consecration as Bishop of Carthage was declared to be legitimate.

Link

 

[Pax]

josephdaniel29 in Christ,

I’ve read the material you’ve provided, but do not find your point to be supported. Moreover, if your point were supported, Augustine would not be considered a saint by the Catholic Church. I think you’re reading more into the data than is warranted. Just my opinion.

God bless.

 

[josephdaniel29]

josephdaniel29 in Christ,

I’ve read the material you’ve provided, but do not find your point to be supported. Moreover, if your point were supported, Augustine would not be considered a saint by the Catholic Church. I think you’re reading more into the data than is warranted. Just my opinion.

God bless.

St Augustine was a saint long before the Roman Church started making the outrageous claims to authority she does today, but that’s for another thread.

As to your post. What part of my point is not supported? Do you dispute the quote from St Augustine is accurate? Do you dispute there was a tribunal held in Rome? Do you dispute the fact that Pope Miltiades presided over that tribunal? Specifics?

In Christ
Joe

 

[Pax]

St Augustine was a saint long before the Roman Church started making the outrageous claims to authority she does today, but that’s for another thread.

As to your post. What part of my point is not supported? Do you dispute the quote from St Augustine is accurate? Do you dispute there was a tribunal held in Rome? Do you dispute the fact that Pope Miltiades presided over that tribunal? Specifics?

In Christ
Joe

josephdaniel29 in Christ,

I do not disagree with the factual aspects. I disagree with the conclusion that you’ve drawn. I do not believe that you have proven your point by the facts you’ve chosen.

 

[josephdaniel29]

josephdaniel29 in Christ,

I do not disagree with the factual aspects. I disagree with the conclusion that you’ve drawn. I do not believe that you have proven your point by the facts you’ve chosen.

Ok.

 

[Pax]

josephdaniel29 in Christ,

The following link may be of some help to you in appreciating the arguments favoring our views on Augustine’s thinking on the papacy as well as some refutations to some non-catholic arguments.

philvaz.com/apologetics/num16.htm

God bless.

 

[TinaG]

josephdaniel29 in Christ,

The following link may be of some help to you in appreciating the arguments favoring our views on Augustine’s thinking on the papacy as well as some refutations to some non-catholic arguments.

philvaz.com/apologetics/num16.htm

God bless.

Hi Again,

Thanks for posting that. In looking at it it seems to be responding to my previous post on this thread. Most interesting. I am printing it out and adding it to The Pile.

-Tina “Up To My -Something- In Printouts to Read” G

 

[steve_b]

St Augustine was a saint long before the Roman Church started making the outrageous claims to authority she does today, but that’s for another thread.

As to your post. What part of my point is not supported? Do you dispute the quote from St Augustine is accurate? Do you dispute there was a tribunal held in Rome? Do you dispute the fact that Pope Miltiades presided over that tribunal? Specifics?

In Christ
Joe

I think what Pax meant to say, if your point was supported, the Church would NOT have made Augustine a doctor of the Church.

Let Augustine speak for himself regarding his opinions and that of the Church… He never backed away from the following.

**For MY PART, I should NOT BELEIVE the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to beleive in the gospel tell me not to beleive in Manicheus, how can I BUT CONSENT?" **
C. Epis Mani 5,6

**"**No sensible person will go contrary to reason, no Christian will contradict the Scriptures, no lover of peace will go against the CHURCH"
Trinitas 4,6,10

IOW, with these quotes, Augustine is saying he has his views, but will always consent to, and never go against, the Catholic Church. And he lived this… So one can’t go looking for where Augustine went against the Church. It’s going to be a futile search given how Augustine thinks.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I think what Pax meant to say, if your point was supported, the Church would NOT have made Augustine a doctor of the Church.

Let Augustine speak for himself regarding his opinions and that of the Church… He never backed away from the following.

**For MY PART, I should NOT BELEIVE the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to beleive in the gospel tell me not to beleive in Manicheus, how can I BUT CONSENT?" **
C. Epis Mani 5,6

**"**No sensible person will go contrary to reason, no Christian will contradict the Scriptures, no lover of peace will go against the CHURCH"
Trinitas 4,6,10

IOW, with these quotes, Augustine is saying he has his views, but will always consent to, and never go against, the Catholic Church. And he lived this… So one can’t go looking for where Augustine went against the Church. It’s going to be a futile search given how Augustine thinks.

You’re reading your modern presuppositions into the early Church. In St Augustine’s day an ecumenical council was a higher authority than the pope or any other bishop for that matter. It was not until much later that the Latin Church introduced the innovation that the pope alone can overrule any council.

You and Pax make the assertion that the Church would not have made him a saint if he held these positions based on nothing but your own personal opinion and wishes. The facts and quotes are clear as day. In the quote in question St Augustine says in unambiguous language that the Donanist could have appealed the decision of a tribunal chaired by the pope to a plenary (ecumenical) council. By this quote it’s clear that St Augustine didn’t view the sentence of the Roman Pontiff as final. That is a heretical position according to modern Catholic teaching.

Now I’ve laid out my case. It is incumbent upon you and Pax to explain why you feel the facts don’t support my conclusion, not just assert they don’t based on nothing but your feelings.

In Christ
Joe

 

[mark_a]

Protestants are using the following to indicate that St. Augustine changed his mind and did not believe that Peter himself was the Rock. What are your thoughts.

This is from christiantruth.com/mt16.html There is a whole lot more there, however; I did not read it all. What are your thoughts?

I’m just glad Protestants were around to diligently preserve the writings of Augustine and all the ECF.

 

[Pax]

…It was not until much later that the Latin Church introduced the innovation that the pope alone can overrule any council.

You and Pax make the assertion that the Church would not have made him a saint if he held these positions based on nothing but your own personal opinion and wishes…

Now I’ve laid out my case. It is incumbent upon you and Pax to explain why you feel the facts don’t support my conclusion, not just assert they don’t based on nothing but your feelings.

In Christ
Joe

Joe in Christ,

Where do you get the idea that the Pope alone can overrule any council? And please give solid examples of just when this has happened and exactly what the exact definitions and descriptions that the Catholic Church has on this. Likewise, find the appropriate data in Church teachings and documents that apply to situations like the one you used in your example. This would go a long way to make your case if you can properly show how all of the pieces fit together.

My opinion concerning the Church’s views on Augustine as a saint and as a doctor of the Church are not based upon “nothing but my own personal opinion and wishes.” This is really common sense and simple logic. If the Church understood Augustine as you do, and that a “true” conflict exists between Augustine’s view and that of the Church, than the Church would not hold Augustine at the current level of esteem. Moreover, the Church would most likely have taken the time to repudiate Augustine’s view on this matter in very direct terms.

I am not really under any obligation to prove your position wrong. I simply told you that I disagree with you in that you really have not proved your point based upon the facts you presented. You have simply spun the facts to say something that myself and others simply do not see based upon your presentation.

Papal infallibility is not explained nor is is it practiced in the fashion that you seem to be purporting. Papal infallibility is not an issue of the Pope “overruling” ecumenical councils. Your example simply does nothing to either establish your contention or present a case against the Church’s teaching on Papal infallibility or Papal authority. IMHO you will have to present something considerably stronger than what you have done thus far. I think there is considerably more involved in all of this than your absolute statements using a single example that could be understood in more ways than one.

God bless.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Joe in Christ,

Where do you get the idea that the Pope alone can overrule any council?

Is it not a dogma of the Catholic Church that a pope’s authority is greater than any other authority, including a council?

And please give solid examples of just when this has happened and exactly what the exact definitions and descriptions that the Catholic Church has on this.

When what happened?

Likewise, find the appropriate data in Church teachings and documents that apply to situations like the one you used in your example.

I’ve already done that. Pastor aeternus states.

The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon.

And

So they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff.

This would go a long way to make your case if you can properly show how all of the pieces fit together.

I’ve already pieced it together as well as I know how. I’ll quote what I posted earlier.

In the quote in question St Augustine says in unambiguous language that the Donanist could have appealed the decision of a tribunal chaired by the pope to a plenary (ecumenical) council. By this quote it’s clear that St Augustine didn’t view the sentence of the Roman Pontiff as final.

I’m having a hard time figuring out where your issue is. Do you ascribe a different meaning to the Augustine quote than I do? Do you understand the text of Pastor aeternus differently than I do?

My opinion concerning the Church’s views on Augustine as a saint and as a doctor of the Church are not based upon “nothing but my own personal opinion and wishes.” This is really common sense and simple logic. If the Church understood Augustine as you do, and that a “true” conflict exists between Augustine’s view and that of the Church, than the Church would not hold Augustine at the current level of esteem. Moreover, the Church would most likely have taken the time to repudiate Augustine’s view on this matter in very direct terms.

Now we’re using common sense and simple logic?

What was the Catholic Church supposed to do? Should they “decanonize” him? A conflict didn’t exist at the time the quote in question was made and didn’t exist at he time he was canonized. Simply asserting that the “Church wouldn’t allow that” doesn’t address the facts in question. You can’t just close your eyes and ignore what St Augustine said.

I am not really under any obligation to prove your position wrong. I simply told you that I disagree with you in that you really have not proved your point based upon the facts you presented. You have simply spun the facts to say something that myself and others simply do not see based upon your presentation.

You’re under no obligation to do anything, including responding to my post. If you’re not going to provide any reason for your position other than “because I said so”, then continuing this discussion is really pointless.

Papal infallibility is not explained nor is is it practiced in the fashion that you seem to be purporting. Papal infallibility is not an issue of the Pope “overruling” ecumenical councils. Your example simply does nothing to either establish your contention or present a case against the Church’s teaching on Papal infallibility or Papal authority.

When did I make the case that this has anything to do with papal infallibility? Has anyone on this thread made that case? This is about the obvious contradiction in what St Augustine said and what modern Catholic teaching, as espoused in Pastor aeternus, says.

IMHO you will have to present something considerably stronger than what you have done thus far. I think there is considerably more involved in all of this than your absolute statements using a single example that could be understood in more ways than one.

God bless.

How much stronger of a “something” do you need than a quote from St Augustine clearly contradicting modern Catholic teaching?

In Christ
Joe

 

[Pax]

When did I make the case that this has anything to do with papal infallibility? Has anyone on this thread made that case?

In Christ
Joe

Joe in Christ,

You created the linkage in your post #12. Likewise, papal infallibility and authority go together.

The Catholic Church does not argue in any practical sense that there is some sort of power struggle between the pope’s authority and that of ecumenical councils. Papal decisions are not willy nilly and created in a vacuum. Popes simply do not run rough shod over councils and the Church’s language should not be taken the way you present it.

An examination of papal pronouncements that are held as binding on the faithful in matters of faith and morals is a great way to see what I’m driving at. If your view was correct, we would numerous instances where Councils overruled Papal proclamations on faith and morals or vice versa. That having been said, caution is always to be exercised no matter what direction you take concerning authority. A study of the Arian heresy will give you great insight into the difficulty of your own position; that is if you’re interested in seeing what can happen with rulings from ecumenical councils.

I would be much more satisfied with your views if they were stated differently. I would not argue for example that the views on papal authority have become more focused over time. I think it a bit of stretch, however, to take the particular instance you used as Augustine’s complete view of papal and council authority. Other instances and examples could easily have arisen where Augustine might have said something different. Declarations concerning the canon of scripture came during Augustine’s time at the Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Rome. Although these are considered authoritative and even Pope Damasus agreed, that same canon was not considered to be infallibly declared until much later at the Council of Florence.

IMHO you simply overstate the implications of the case you’ve presented. If you think otherwise so be it.

God bless.

 

[steve_b]

You’re reading your modern presuppositions into the early Church. In St Augustine’s day an ecumenical council was a higher authority than the pope or any other bishop for that matter. It was not until much later that the Latin Church introduced the innovation that the pope alone can overrule any council.

Not true. If the pope didn’t approve a council, it wasn’t a universal council, it was merrely a local council that had authority on the ones it was local to.
jd:

You and Pax make the assertion that the Church would not have made him a saint if he held these positions based on nothing but your own personal opinion and wishes.

Read it again. I thought Pax probably meant to say “doctor”.
jd:

The facts and quotes are clear as day. In the quote in question St Augustine says in unambiguous language that the Donanist could have appealed the decision of a tribunal chaired by the pope to a plenary (ecumenical) council. By this quote it’s clear that St Augustine didn’t view the sentence of the Roman Pontiff as final. That is a heretical position according to modern Catholic teaching.

There is no ecumenical council without the pope. The pope makes a council universal.
jd:

Now I’ve laid out my case. It is incumbent upon you and Pax to explain why you feel the facts don’t support my conclusion, not just assert they don’t based on nothing but your feelings.

How many ecumenical councils are there? What made them ecumenical? Which council(s) or part of any council did a pope repudiate?

 

[josephdaniel29]

Joe in Christ,

You created the linkage in your post #12. Likewise, papal infallibility and authority go together.

Frankly I added the word infallibility as an after thought. It certainly has nothing to do with the quote in question.

The Catholic Church does not argue in any practical sense that there is some sort of power struggle between the pope’s authority and that of ecumenical councils. Papal decisions are not willy nilly and created in a vacuum. Popes simply do not run rough shod over councils and the Church’s language should not be taken the way you present it.

Completely off topic. We’re discussing the ramifications of what St Augustine said in the quote in question compared to the teachings in Pastor Aeternus.

An examination of papal pronouncements that are held as binding on the faithful in matters of faith and morals is a great way to see what I’m driving at. If your view was correct, we would numerous instances where Councils overruled Papal proclamations on faith and morals or vice versa. That having been said, caution is always to be exercised no matter what direction you take concerning authority. A study of the Arian heresy will give you great insight into the difficulty of your own position; that is if you’re interested in seeing what can happen with rulings from ecumenical councils.

Yet again, not relevant to the topic.

I would be much more satisfied with your views if they were stated differently. I would not argue for example that the views on papal authority have become more focused over time. I think it a bit of stretch, however, to take the particular instance you used as Augustine’s complete view of papal and council authority. Other instances and examples could easily have arisen where Augustine might have said something different. Declarations concerning the canon of scripture came during Augustine’s time at the Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Rome. Although these are considered authoritative and even Pope Damasus agreed, that same canon was not considered to be infallibly declared until much later at the Council of Florence.

I’m not the one who stated the view. St Augustine is the one who said a sentence of the Roman Pontiff can be appealed to an ecumenical council.

IMHO you simply overstate the implications of the case you’ve presented. If you think otherwise so be it.

God bless.

So instead of going on about infallibilty and the rest why don’t you tell me what you think the implications of St Augustine’s statement is?

In Christ
Joe