St Augustines view of Blaspehmy aginst the spirit

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If anyone has any information on how the Church arrived at st Augustines view of Blasphemy against the Holy spirit(that it is final impertinance), it would be of great help to me.

It’s just Jesus’ words in the Gospel of St matthew seem so clear, i don’t understand why the Church does not take the literal explanation.
1 Matthew 12 Found 8
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
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2 Luke 12 Found 7
10 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but to him that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven.
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3 Mark 3 Found 6
29 But he that s**hall blaspheme **against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.
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Also is the CCC Infalliable on matters of faith and morals (or was John paul II when he spoke about Blasphemy against the Holy spirit it in his encyclical Dominum et vivficantum)
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Pete said:
If anyone has any information on how the Church arrived at st Augustines view of Blasphemy against the Holy spirit(that it is final impertinance), it would be of great help to me.

It’s just Jesus’ words in the Gospel of St matthew seem so clear, i don’t understand why the Church does not take the literal explanation.

Also is the CCC Infalliable on matters of faith and morals (or was John paul II when he spoke about Blasphemy against the Holy spirit it in his encynical)
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I can’t, unfortunately, give you historical information, but I think if we explore Matthew’s words a bit, we can see that it means the same thing.
The key difference is that Matthew says “speak against” and the others say “blaspheme against”. So how does one “speak against” someone? You denounce the things, possessions, activities, qualities of that person. If we “speak against” the Holy Spirit, we are speaking against those activities and qualities that belong to Him. So, what are they? Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Piety, Good counsel, Fortitude, and Fear of the Lord are the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Faith, Hope, Charity, Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, and Justice are (one list of) the seven virtues, which the Holy Spirit guides and strengthens us in. So, to speak against the Holy Spirit is to speak against these gifts, to not partake of them, and to resign oneself to impenitence and hell.
 
Pete said:
Also is the CCC Infalliable on matters of faith and morals (or was John paul II when he spoke about Blasphemy against the Holy spirit it in his encyclical Dominum et vivficantum)
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Also, the CCC is not itself infallible, but it does contain quite a few infallible teachings.
 
Pete said:
If anyone has any information on how the Church arrived at st Augustines view of Blasphemy against the Holy spirit(that it is final impertinance), it would be of great help to me.

It’s just Jesus’ words in the Gospel of St matthew seem so clear, i don’t understand why the Church does not take the literal explanation.
Also is the CCC Infalliable on matters of faith and morals (or was John paul II when he spoke about Blasphemy against the Holy spirit it in his encyclical Dominum et vivficantum)
Code: 
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I have always understood that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the rejection of God’s love and forgivness. Since we as Roman Catholics understand the Holy Spirit to come about from the mutual love of the Father for the Son and Son for the Father, then to deny the Holy Spirit is to deny that same love towards us. One way of looking at it would be that if a person rejects or does not believe in the love of God, then that person will never seek it. So the one who commits mortal sin and does not seek forgivness from God will never recieve it. So as we hear in words of absolution “God, the Father of Mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son has reconciled the wolrd to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgivness of sins…” It is the Holy Spirit that is the forgiver of our sins. If you never seek the Holy Spirit (insofar as seeking God’s forgivness) you will never recieve God’s absolution, and thus we have the unforgivable sin, unforgivable in the sense that a person never allowed God to forgive him.
 
Pete, from what I gather it is possible to commit this sin in the literal sense.

In Mark the literal expression of the sin is followed by “because he has an unclean spirit”.
This phrase has been enterpreted to mean a kind of malice that involves a number qualities. One of the qualities is an inability to ask pardon due to a lack of humility.

So the cause of the unforgiveness of the sin is this unclean spirit which is unable to ask for pardon.
 
blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can be nothing other than final impenitence, because the Church teaches that any and all sins can be forgiven by Baptism, and by Confession.

The Catechism is not infallible.
Encyclicals are not per se infallible, though it is possible (but not common) for an encyclical to contain an infallible solemn definition.
 
Pete said:
Is this infallible?
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Yes, but keep in mind there are conditions for a valid confession - it involves more than just mouthing words. The one confessing must be sorry for the sin and have a firm intention to amend their actions.

Regarding the blasphemy, or sin, against the Holy Spirit, another strong activity of the Holy Spirit is to “convince the world concerning sin” (John 16:8). This passage connects with the previous postings about the sin against the Holy Spirit being a refusal to accept the Holy Spirit’s work in our heart and mind to convince us (or make us aware) of our sinful deeds. If we refuse to recognize and admit our sin, we naturally would never go to confession and confess it. Hence, no forgiveness.

Nita
 
Pete said:
do you have a source for this, it would really help me if i could find one.
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Source of quotes is “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott. (This book should be on the shelf of every Catholic who wants to know the doctrines of the Church, history of them, Scripture sources and early Church Fathers that support them. )

Regarding forgiveness of sin in Baptism:
Quote:
  1. **Baptism confers the grace of justification (De fide.) **
    …
    In the Decree on Original Sin, the Council of Trent declared: “If any one denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ which is conferred in Baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away … let him be anathema.” D 792, cf 696, 742, 895
  2. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal. (De fide.)
    The Council of Trent teaches that in the spiritually reborn nothing remains behind that is hateful to God, and that keeps them from entering Heaven; in renatis nihil odit Deus, …ita ut nihil prorsus eos ab ingressu coeli remoretur. D 792. Cf. D 696. It is presupposed that the recipient of Baptism innerly renounces all sins, including venial sins. The remission of all punishment of sin is indicated in the Pauline teaching that in Baptism the old man dies and is buried and a new man arises (Rom. 6:3 et seq.).
Regarding the forgiveness of sins in Confession:
The Church’s power to forgive sins extends to all sin without exception. (De fide.)
…According to the teaching of the Council of Trent, Penance was instituted as a reconciliation of the faithful with God “as often as they fall into sin after Baptism” (quoties post baptismum in peccata labuntur). D 911; cf. 895, 430. It follows from this that Penance can be repeated at will, and that all sins without exception committed after Baptism can be remitted by the Church’s power to forgive sins.

Christ promised to His Church and transmitted to His Church the power to forgive sins without limitation. The expressions quodcumque solvers (Mt. 16:19), quaecumque solveritis (Mt. 18:18), quorum remiseritis peccata (John 20:23) show that the power in question is conceived to be as inclusive and as general as possible… In addition to this Christ transferred His mission, in which the unlimited power to forgive sins in contained, to the Church (John 20:21). …
…
The passages cited by the opponents of this doctrine, Mt. 12:31 et seq.; Mk. 3:28 et seq; Luke 12:10 (sin against the Holy Ghost), and Hebr 6:406, refer to the sin of obduracy, which because of a lack of due dispositions, cannot be forgiven. 1 John 5:16 does not treat of the power to forgive sins, but speaks of the exclusion of those lapsed from Christ from the intercessory prayer of the Church.
…

End quotes from Fundamentals. The D reference refers to the Denzinger volumes that contain official documents/statements issued by the Church. Not the originals of course. I don’t have those volumes so could not go to them to quote. Don’t know if they’re available online or not.

The other official source would be the Catechechism of the Catholic Church.
#1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberatedly refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the fortiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Hope this helps,
Nita
 
The Church’s power to forgive sins extends to all sin without exception. (De fide.)
…According to the teaching of the Council of Trent, Penance was instituted as a reconciliation of the faithful with God “as often as they fall into sin after Baptism” (quoties post baptismum in peccata labuntur). D 911; cf. 895, 430. It follows from this that Penance can be repeated at will, and that all sins without exception committed after Baptism can be remitted by the Church’s power to forgive sins.
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Christ promised to His Church and transmitted to His Church the power to forgive sins without limitation. The expressions quodcumque solvers (Mt. 16:19), quaecumque solveritis (Mt. 18:18), quorum remiseritis peccata (John 20:23) show that the power in question is conceived to be as inclusive and as general as possible… In addition to this Christ transferred His mission, in which the unlimited power to forgive sins in contained, to the Church (John 20:21). …
…
The passages cited by the opponents of this doctrine, Mt. 12:31 et seq.; Mk. 3:28 et seq; Luke 12:10 (sin against the Holy Ghost), and Hebr 6:406, refer to the sin of obduracy, which because of a lack of due dispositions, cannot be forgiven. 1 John 5:16 does not treat of the power to forgive sins, but speaks of the exclusion of those lapsed from Christ from the intercessory prayer of the Church.
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This helps very much thankyou 😃
de fide is infalliable right?
also what are the cf references and do you know where i can find the statement from the council of trent?

thankyou for your help
 
Pete said:
This helps very much thankyou 😃
de fide is infalliable right?
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Yes, de fide is infallible. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma gives the level of theological certainty for the various teachings. De fide is the highest grade of certainty.
also what are the cf references
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The cf references refer to other paragraphs in the document that are related to the topic. (Paragraphs are numbered in the Denzinger - like in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.)
do you know where i can find the statement from the council of trent?
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I have a book titled “The Sources of Catholic Dogma” Denzinger. I always thought the Denzinger was a multi volume set, but I may be wrong, since there is nothing in my book that indicates it’s an abridged version. It’s published by Loreto Publications, PO Box 603, Fitzwilliam, NH 03447 www.Loretopubs.org
I got it several years ago and paid $29.95
It is all in English - doesn’t include the original Latin.

Here is paragraph 911:
D 911 Can. 1. If anyone says that in the Catholic Church penance is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ our Lord to reconcile the faithful, as often as they fall into sin after baptism: let him be anathema [cf. n. 894].

Paragraph 894 is quite a bit longer - not sure if it would fit in one post. It addresses the “Necessity and Institution of the Sacrament of Penance”. If you want it posted, let me know.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Nita
 
Just went to the Loreto website. Type Denzinger in the “Search”. I see the price has gone up to $34.95 😦

Nita
 
Hi Pete,
it seems my friend that you may be terrified that you may have committed the unpardonable sin in the past.
You really shouldn’t be worried.
If you really had committed that sin, you would be so proud and arrogant that you would not be asking the questions you ask.
The fact that you ask is proof that the Holy Spirit is working with you. If you were guilty of THAT sin, He wouldn’t be, and
you would not CARE.
You see, Pete, fear of that sin caused me to have a horrible nervous breakdown in 1981 followed by severe clinical depression which lasted for ten years. I don’t want that to happen to you –
no one on these forums wants that to happen to you.

Keep in mind that God is a Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Father is the eternal source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit’s source is also the Son, eternally, because He proceeds as their mutual and intelligent love for each other. The Holy Spirit is NOT holier than the Father or the Son.
That is not why blaspheming the Spirit is unforgivable.
It is unforgivable because the person who commits it
is deliberately, consciously, and unrepentantly and maliciously
rejecting the light and ACTIVELY and KNOWINGLY trying to turn people AWAY from the light out of selfishness and malice.
The Pharisees had been following Jesus around persecuting Him and trying to turn people away from him, for a couple of years by the time that this stern warning was given. UNLIKE US, the Pharisees had witnessed Jesus: healing the sick, restoring palsied limbs, opening the eyes of the blind, raising the dead.
These are stupendous miracles, and yet they continued to attack Jesus in spite of seeing them. That shows a hardness of heart that cannot be healed and a malice that is unequalled. Not only that, but they had heard his sermons - which often lasted for hours and only HIGHLIGHTS of which are recorded in the Bible - and they knew that he taught true, loving, and Holy doctrine.
Yet they continually accused him of being possessed by the Devil (cf. Matthew chapter nine verses 33-35, I believe). The time when he warned them about the Unforgivable Sin was NOT the first time they had told the People that he was demon possessed and doing his deeds by demonic power. They had made this, and other cruelly similar accusations, many times. They even got furious at him merely because he merely SPOKE a word and a man was healed on the Sabbath. THAT involves no laborious work, no genuine violation of GODs rules about the Sabbath,
just a violation of THEIR man-made traditions about how to keep the Sabbath. In other words, they got mad enough to kill merely over Jesus speaking into existence a healing act of Mercy.
How many people, Jew or Gentile, would EVER do such a vicious thing? Not many. How can ANYBODY get mad at seeing a
helpless cripple healed? That takes the heart of a beast.
So Pete, if you are worried about that sin, pray to God that He never allow you to develop a persistently malicious heart. And don’t worry about the past. You don’t give any evidence on these threads of having a malicious, sacrilegious, cruel personality.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
Hi Pete,
it seems my friend that you may be terrified that you may have committed the unpardonable sin in the past.
You really shouldn’t be worried.
If you really had committed that sin, you would be so proud and arrogant that you would not be asking the questions you ask.
The fact that you ask is proof that the Holy Spirit is working with you. If you were guilty of THAT sin, He wouldn’t be, and
you would not CARE.
You see, Pete, fear of that sin caused me to have a horrible nervous breakdown in 1981 followed by severe clinical depression which lasted for ten years. I don’t want that to happen to you –
no one on these forums wants that to happen to you.

Keep in mind that God is a Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Father is the eternal source of both the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit’s source is also the Son, eternally, because He proceeds as their mutual and intelligent love for each other. The Holy Spirit is NOT holier than the Father or the Son.
That is not why blaspheming the Spirit is unforgivable.
It is unforgivable because the person who commits it
is deliberately, consciously, and unrepentantly and maliciously
rejecting the light and ACTIVELY and KNOWINGLY trying to turn people AWAY from the light out of selfishness and malice.
The Pharisees had been following Jesus around persecuting Him and trying to turn people away from him, for a couple of years by the time that this stern warning was given. UNLIKE US, the Pharisees had witnessed Jesus: healing the sick, restoring palsied limbs, opening the eyes of the blind, raising the dead.
These are stupendous miracles, and yet they continued to attack Jesus in spite of seeing them. That shows a hardness of heart that cannot be healed and a malice that is unequalled. Not only that, but they had heard his sermons - which often lasted for hours and only HIGHLIGHTS of which are recorded in the Bible - and they knew that he taught true, loving, and Holy doctrine.
Yet they continually accused him of being possessed by the Devil (cf. Matthew chapter nine verses 33-35, I believe). The time when he warned them about the Unforgivable Sin was NOT the first time they had told the People that he was demon possessed and doing his deeds by demonic power. They had made this, and other cruelly similar accusations, many times. They even got furious at him merely because he merely SPOKE a word and a man was healed on the Sabbath. THAT involves no laborious work, no genuine violation of GODs rules about the Sabbath,
just a violation of THEIR man-made traditions about how to keep the Sabbath. In other words, they got mad enough to kill merely over Jesus speaking into existence a healing act of Mercy.
How many people, Jew or Gentile, would EVER do such a vicious thing? Not many. How can ANYBODY get mad at seeing a
helpless cripple healed? That takes the heart of a beast.
So Pete, if you are worried about that sin, pray to God that He never allow you to develop a persistently malicious heart. And don’t worry about the past. You don’t give any evidence on these threads of having a malicious, sacrilegious, cruel personality.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
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Thankyou
 
My bible says in the footnote that blaspehmy against the Holy Spirit is attributing an act of God to the devil instead.
 
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