ST. CATHERINE OF SIENA - Criticizing Clergy, A Heinous Sin

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Many years ago, God inspired me to purchase “The Dialogue” by this Saint, who bears the eminent distinction and title, Doctor of the Church. Since I am blessed to have learned Our Lord’s words to her about His ministers through this classic, it seems timely to share that blessing with others who have not discovered this treasure. For those who have the book, I’ll be sharing from the chapter “Mystical Body of Holy Church,” pages 216-220.
And if you should ask me why I said that this sin of those who persecute holy Church is grave than any other sin, and why it is my will that the sins of the clergy should not lessen your reverence for them, this is how I would answer you: Because the reverence you pay to them is not actually paid to them, but to me, in virtue of the blood I have entrusted to their ministry.

So the reverence belongs not to the ministers, but to me … and just as the reverence is done to me, so also is the irreverence, for I have already told you that you must not reverence them for themselves but for the authority I have entrusted to them.

For this reason, no one has excuse to say, “I am doing no harm, nor am I rebelling against holy Church. I am simply acting against the sins of evil pastors.” Such persons are deluded, blinded as they are by their own selfishness. To me redounds every assault they make on my ministers: derision, slander, disgrace, abuse. Whatever is done to them I count as done to me. For I have said, and I say it again: No one is to touch my christs. It is my right to punish them, and no one else’s.

Therefore, I will tell you, if all the other sins these people have committed were put on one side and the one sin on the other, this one would weigh more in my sight than all the others. I have shown you this so that you would have more reason to grieve that I am offended and these wretched souls damned, so that the bitter sorrow of you and my other servants, by my kind mercy, might dissolve the great darkness that has come over these rotten members who are cut off from the mystic body of holy Church.

O dearest daughter, grieve without measure at the sight of such wretched blindness in those who have been washed in the blood, and have been nourished with this blood at the breast of holy Church! Now like rebels they have pulled away from that breast out of fear and under the pretext of correcting the faults of my ministers – something I have forbidden them to do, for I do not want my anointed ones touched by them. What terror should come over you and my other servants when you hear any mention of that wretched chain of theirs! Your tongue could never describe how hateful it is to me!
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May Jesus bless us as we contemplate His holy words to St. Catherine. Amen.
 
And that’s how evil priests got away with abusing children for so long. Nobody felt able to criticise them,or would listen to those children who tried to tell what was happening, The abused children were sometimes even punished severely for their ‘wicked lies’.
 
paperwight66 said:
And that’s how evil priests got away with abusing children for so long. Nobody felt able to criticise them,or would listen to those children who tried to tell what was happening, The abused children were sometimes even punished severely for their ‘wicked lies’.
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I agree with you. I think that it’s wrong to criticize a priest for not being “holy enough” or “liberal enough” for someone, or griping about them because they don’t agree with them or with something they’ve said. But if a priest or other holy person is doing something wrong, they should be reported to the authorities, and be subject to the authorities, and dealt with like everyone else. It’s evil to let a priest (or anyone else) continue abusive and evil behavior when they can be stopped and prevented from doing so again.
 
But if a priest or other holy person is doing something wrong, they should be reported to the authorities, and be subject to the authorities
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That is the right avenue to take, as opposed to gossip on a street corner or over the neighborhood fence. I agree with you that the church has set up procedures for us to make these issues known and we should not fail to use them in serious matters.

Meanwhile, the difficult part for most of us is keeping our equilibrium in peace and refusing to despise them in our thoughts, which are always seen by Our Lord.
 
Sirach2 said:
That is the right avenue to take, as opposed to gossip on a street corner or over the neighborhood fence. I agree with you that the church has set up procedures for us to make these issues known and we should not fail to use them in serious matters.

Meanwhile, the difficult part for most of us is keeping our equilibrium in peace and refusing to despise them in our thoughts, which are always seen by Our Lord.
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Well, I agree…if the priest is embezzling. No need to talk about it over the fence to your neighbors. However, if a child is being abused by clergy, a parent has the obligation to warn other parents so that their child isn’t abused too. I certainly don’t agree that it should be kept all hush-hush so that unsuspecting parents allow their child to be in contact with the same clergy member. In addition, the parent should go directly to the police for sure, so that the authorities can deal with the priest, just like any other criminal. That’s the very first place it should be reported, so that it can be dealt with immediately and the perpetrator removed from the public and put in a cell where he/she belongs and where he/she can’t hurt anyone.
 
Folks, forget the title of this thread, and read the words only, and you will see it’s not quite what some people think it means. 🙂

In fact, in the words ‘criticizing clergy’ are never used, but something different. It’s about ‘persecuting’ them and irreverence.

Though it is true some criticism springs from that malicious source, and you will here worldly people casually bashing the clergy.

And it is also true you have to be quite prudent about what you say, and when you say it, especially in regards to the clergy.
 
paperwight66 said:
And that’s how evil priests got away with abusing children for so long. Nobody felt able to criticise them,or would listen to those children who tried to tell what was happening, The abused children were sometimes even punished severely for their ‘wicked lies’.
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For each child abused by clergy there are at least 500 abused by fathers, mothers, teachers, youth leaders or strangers. For ech cl;ergy member abusing children there 99 innocent one.

We shall honor the clergy, and also we shall harshly criticize those who talks only about the abuses by the clergy abandoning millions of abused children by others
 
Thank you Shin for clarifying this. You are absolutely right. The whole section of this treatise speaks about disrespect and irreverence, resulting in persecution, no matter the form it takes.
I believe the controversy between the Papacy and the Italian state during Catherine’s lifetime may have partly been the reason for Our Lord to give this instruction to her.

That being said, I still get the feeling today, many years after I read first this, that Christ is greatly displeased with any persecution directed toward the clergy, especially from lay persons who have no authority to assume that right to themselves.
 
Sirach2 said:
Thank you Shin for clarifying this. You are absolutely right. The whole section of this treatise speaks about disrespect and irreverence, resulting in persecution, no matter the form it takes.
I believe the controversy between the Papacy and the Italian state during Catherine’s lifetime may have partly been the reason for Our Lord to give this instruction to her.

That being said, I still get the feeling today, many years after I read first this, that Christ is greatly displeased with any persecution directed toward the clergy, especially from lay persons who have no authority to assume that right to themselves.
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You know it’s a funny thing, but you quoted the newer translation, and the older translation reads differently in many respects. It makes me want to get ahold of something more primarily sourced, if there’s some original Latin out there online.

I hadn’t realized it until this thread, now I have something to read up on and look for. 😃

. . . A person can read part of the newer one online at Google Books in previews, an the older one is of Algar Thorold’s is online too, though there’s an abridged and non-abridged version of his out there, the former which doesn’t have at all the bit quoted.
 
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Shin:
You know it’s a funny thing, but you quoted the newer translation, and the older translation reads differently in many respects. It makes me want to get ahold of something more primarily sourced, if there’s some original Latin out there online.
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😃 You’ll get a kick out of this, but my copy is stamped $7.95. I believe it’s quite a lot more nowadays. It bears ISBN-0-8091-2233-2, copyright 1980.

I have tried to reprint meaningful sections previously from online versions, but they aren’t as complete as my book. Why, I don’t know. It was disappointing not to be able to find a quick copy and paste online, so I have had to type from my own book. So the online versions probably don’t even have this particular chapter.
 
Shin said:
You know it’s a funny thing, but you quoted the newer translation, and the older translation reads differently in many respects. It makes me want to get ahold of something more primarily sourced, if there’s some original Latin out there online.

I hadn’t realized it until this thread, now I have something to read up on and look for. 😃

. . . A person can read part of the newer one online at Google Books in previews, an the older one is of Algar Thorold’s is online too, though there’s an abridged and non-abridged version of his out there, the former which doesn’t have at all the bit quoted.
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Here is in Italian (original)

abbaye-saint-benoit.ch/saints/catherine/oeuvres/dialogo.htm

Here is the reference to two English translations

home.infionline.net/~ddisse/siena.html#anchor210153
 
Sirach2 said:
😃 You’ll get a kick out of this, but my copy is stamped $7.95. I believe it’s quite a lot more nowadays. It bears ISBN-0-8091-2233-2, copyright 1980.

I have tried to reprint meaningful sections previously from online versions, but they aren’t as complete as my book. Why, I don’t know. It was disappointing not to be able to find a quick copy and paste online, so I have had to type from my own book. So the online versions probably don’t even have this particular chapter.
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Oh I found the unabridged online, but it took some hunting. I hadn’t even realized what I was reading was the abridged version at first.

I kept saying, “Why can’t I find what he’s quoting?” On the bright side I read some good other bits of the Dialogue and benefited spiritually. 😃

It’s chapter CXVI and you’ll see how it reads rather different. I think your translation is available in that part on Google Books in preview.

I wish I recalled that sermon about authority and criticism I once heard better. I’d like to read a comprehensive piece on it.
 
Thanks Sirach2. 🙂

I remember when books cost $2.95. Those were the good old days.
 
laszlo said:
For each child abused by clergy there are at least 500 abused by fathers, mothers, teachers, youth leaders or strangers. For each clergy member abusing children there 99 innocent one.
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This in no way lessens the guilt of those clergy members who are child abusers. Nor does it lessen the need, or the duty of Christians to speak clearly, firmly, and consistently against such wickedness.

Statements like yours, which may in fact be true, run the risk of giving the appearance that we Catholics are trying to trivialize the evil acts committed by those priests and bishops who are guilty. They actually fuel anti-Catholic bias.
 
Yes I know that we are to judge the sin and not the sinner but too many of us are quick to judge the Priesthood on other matters outside of the sexual abuse scandal,our holy annointed are the first wall of defence against the onslaughts of the devil and being the first wall are attacked more than we can imagine.
Perhaps if we had a majority of Catholics fasting (as permissable) and praying for our Catholic Priesthood then we would be like a buttress for them.
May God strengthen and lift up those Priests who are demoralized over the sins of their brothers.:gopray:
 
Calumny and detraction have always been sins and they apply to everyone not just priests.

It is not calumny or detraction however to report a crime to the appropriate authorities, it would be to gossip about it to anyone else however, that is the difference.

Reporting a child abuser to the police is fine, in fact it is our duty. Spreading rumors among the community about such a thing especially when it is unproven however would be a great sin, plenty of innocent priests have had their ministries destroyed by false accusations.
 
I just read this letter from St. Catherine on another thread and thought it would be good to add to this discussion.

"He is insane who rises or acts contrary to this Vicar who holds the keys of the blood of Christ crucified. Even if he was a demon incarnate, I should not raise my head against him, but always grovel and ask for the blood out of mercy. And don’t pay attention to what the demon proposes to you and you propose under the color of virtue, that is to say to want to do justice against evil pastors regarding their fault. Don’t trust the demon: don’t try to do justice about what does not concern you.

God wants neither you nor anyone else to set themselves up as a righter of the wrongs of His ministers. He reserves judgment to Himself, and He reserves it to His Vicar; and if the Vicar does not do justice, we should wait for the punishment and correction on the part of the sovereign judge, God Eternal." (Letters, Vol. I. Letter No. 28).

“He left you this sweet key of obedience; for as you know He left His vicar, the Christ, on earth, whom you are all obliged to obey until death, and whoever is outside His obedience is in a state of damnation” (Dialogue, Treatise on Obedience)

“For divine obedience never prevents us from obedience to the Holy Father: nay, the more perfect the one, the more perfect is the other. And we ought always to be subject to his commands and obedient unto death. However indiscreet obedience to him might seem, and however it should deprive us of mental peace and consolation, we ought to obey; and I consider that to do the opposite is a great imperfection, and deceit of the devil.” (Letter to Brother Antonio of Nizza)
 
Are those letters specifically from the Vatican? Do their contents infallible statements by the Pope or the Bishops?

I certainly hope not. It makes me glad that the Catholic Church (or rather its representatives) here in the U.S. is NOT above the law. Some people would like to believe they are, but the fact is, they are not. When someone does wrong, whether they are a priest or not, they should be turned into the civil authorities so that they can stop the harm they are doing and be held accountable. A priest can be arrested for breaking the law, just like anyone else, and that’s the way it should… God isn’t happy about his representatives here on earth hurting his flock. And there is nothing to convince me that the civil authorities are on God’s side when they take action to prevent crimes, and being led by Him as well.
 
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