St. Catherine of Siena in Royal Wedding homily

[GKC]

High Church Anglicans believe in most of the same major saints that we do, and they even have added some saints of their own: Florence Nightingale, for one, was named an Anglican saint. I don’t know what miracles can be attributed to her heavenly intercession, despite her influence on developing the profession of nursing (which in itself has wrought the near-miraculous and continues to do so, but in quite ordinary and scientifically explainable ways.)

I’m not sure what the process of their canonization is. I was actually surprised that they do venerate some of what we would consider “very Catholic” saints (such as St. Francis of Assisi, St. Augustine, and the rest) because of their split off from Rome. But LilyM’s comment (above) about the length of time of our shared history makes complete sense to me: Do the math!

There are some Episcopal churches in the US that are so “high church” that it would be quite difficult for the observer to determine that they were not at a Roman Catholic Mass. Their churches, while highly decorated, do not generally have three altars, etc. as we are accustomed to, and there is less obvious statuary.

I have had the opportunity to attend some Episcopal communion services for social reasons (without partaking of their communion, obviously,) and other than very slight differences, was quite surprised with how similar their liturgy is to our Mass. Most of the prayers and responses are similar, if not identical. However, in part because their priests are not ordained validly, that is not actually the Body and Blood of Christ that you see there in their liturgy, even though the words of consecration are extremely similar. Their version of sacraments is two–baptism and holy communion, although they celebrate liturgies for matrimony, confirmation, ordination, anointing of the sick, and have a version of confession and absolution. They don’t call the other five sacraments, I don’t know what they call them.

My personal thought is this: I believe Christ weeps more for the smaller but deep cuts in His mystical body (the Anglicans, the Lutherans, and other mainline Protestant sects) than the bigger rifts and actual severances from belief in Him. It is one of my most heartfelt prayers that our “closely separated brethren” will be drawn back to the true Church. Perhaps the prayers of the saints that our two Churches venerate in common will help bring that happy day to realization.

Some Anglicans call the other five sacraments “sacraments” as do you. While referring to Baptism and the Eucharist as Dominical sacraments, established by our Lord.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[GKC]

With regards to saints, there are many similarities between Anglicans and Orthodox. We all have the same pre-schism saints and there has even been some adoption by the Anglicans of post-schism Catholic saints. However, Anglicans no longer canonize saints. They did “canonize” King Charles I, but that’s the only example.

However, non-saints have been added to national Anglican churches (such as the Episcopal church) calendars, such that there are feast days for people who are not saints. That’s where people like Martin Luther King, Jr. come in. When I was an Episcopalian, the book was called “Lesser Feasts and Fasts” and now there is a book called “Holy Women, Holy Men” that has hundreds of additions, some of them rather controversial (and even the idea of throwing in hundreds of new people without clear reasons riled up the few remaining conservatives).

With regards to prayer to saints, it really depends. Some Anglicans are much more Reformed in their practice and theology (called “Low Church”), others are much more Catholic (called “High Church” or “Anglo-Catholic”). I was on the Anglo-Catholic side.

So for example, these are both very similar:

But notice how the Catholic prayer, even though it is directed to God, mentions the intercession of St. Dominic and his merits – this would not be done in an Anglican prayer. However, some Anglicans pray the Rosary (even including the Fatima Prayer) while others would detest it for Protestant reasons (and, like Catholics, most just kind of ignore it – it’s on the periphery of their spiritual life).

There are as many kinds of Anglicans pretty much as there are Anglicans. It is like a microcosm of the whole denominational battle and its shrinking all the time. There is talk of disestablishing the Church of England – that is, making it not part of the government anymore. Most of the Anglicans coming over to the Catholic Church with Anglicanorum Coetibus are already broken off of the Anglican Communion, although there are even bishops of the CofE and other churches coming over.

Many people just got tired of the liberal nonsense going on with the bishops and such. We realized Anglicanism was a sinking ship and it couldn’t be saved, so we decided to just come back to Rome. The Catholic Church may also be in the midst of a crisis (ultimately the same crisis) but it’s founded on a Rock rather than on sand and that makes a big difference. It means that whereas Anglicanism is collapsing and will become even more irrelevant than it already is, the Catholic Church can never totally collapse and disappear. I am happy to be fully and plentifully Catholic now, rather than “Catholic-lite”. I have no doubts anymore about whether my priest is really ordained and thus if the Eucharist is really Jesus Christ or my sins are really forgiven. I don’t have to justify my existence anymore, I’m just Catholic – as Christ intended.

As you mention, and I have mentioned myself, here and there, there is a wide variance among Anglicans.Those who would use the collect in the Anglican Breviary for the Feast of St. Dominic, for example, would say almost exactly the same thing as the RC collect you post here. Including the reference to the merits, teachings, and intercession.

All sorts of Anglicans out there.

GKC

 

[LDNCatholic]

They could sell or rent them - let’s face it if a parish is converting to Catholicism en masse then it’s not like the CoE will need 'em, and older ones especially can be very expensive to keep up.

I think they’d keep them on principle.

But yeah, renting is another possibility.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

When I heard them talk about Westminster Abby being built 1000 years ago I realized it must have originally been a Catholic church till King Henry changed things. It did look different having the large gold/bronze plates on the alter. Were all the churches just seized?

Actually most of the Catholic churches and cathedrals and especially monasteries were simply destroyed. That is why you can go and visit cathedral ruins all over England. Henry didn’t much like it when he was denied a divorce and that is when the Anglican Church began, with Henry as its titular head. The reason the Anglican/Episcopal Church is so much like Catholicism is that Henry was a Catholic! It’s all he knew, of course. The only difference at that point was the schism from Rome.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Many people just got tired of the liberal nonsense going on with the bishops and such. We realized Anglicanism was a sinking ship and it couldn’t be saved, so we decided to just come back to Rome. The Catholic Church may also be in the midst of a crisis (ultimately the same crisis) but it’s founded on a Rock rather than on sand and that makes a big difference. It means that whereas Anglicanism is collapsing and will become even more irrelevant than it already is, the Catholic Church can never totally collapse and disappear. I am happy to be fully and plentifully Catholic now, rather than “Catholic-lite”. I have no doubts anymore about whether my priest is really ordained and thus if the Eucharist is really Jesus Christ or my sins are really forgiven. I don’t have to justify my existence anymore, I’m just Catholic – as Christ intended.

I talked about this with an Episcopalian friend of mine. She said it really goes a lot deeper than the outward fact of the church having elected a gay bishop. It’s an issue as to whether the Bible is or is not the revealed word of God. If it is, then homosexuality is wrong and sinful. If homosexuality is not sinful, then the Bible cannot be the revealed word of God, since it is written very clearly in the Bible many times that homosexuality is an abomination in God’s sight. The conservative branches of the Anglican and Episcopalian churches have broken away from the falsely liberal branch because of this very deep and wide issue.

 

[GKC]

Actually most of the Catholic churches and cathedrals and especially monasteries were simply destroyed. That is why you can go and visit cathedral ruins all over England. Henry didn’t much like it when he was denied a divorce and that is when the Anglican Church began, with Henry as its titular head. The reason the Anglican/Episcopal Church is so much like Catholicism is that Henry was a Catholic! It’s all he knew, of course. The only difference at that point was the schism from Rome.

Decree of nullity.

Which cathedrals were destroyed?

GKC

 

[LilyM]

Decree of nullity.

Which cathedrals were destroyed?

GKC

She’s probably thinking of the monasteries, abbeys and convents rather than the cathedrals.

Mind you, there was a lot of stained glass, statuary and other religious artwork that was destroyed.

 

[GKC]

She’s probably thinking of the monasteries, abbeys and convents rather than the cathedrals.

Mind you, there was a lot of stained glass, statuary and other religious artwork that was destroyed.

I suspect you are correct.

And true. See STRIPPING OF THE ALTARS/Duffy.

GKC

 

[MuchAfraid]

When I heard them talk about Westminster Abby being built 1000 years ago I realized it must have originally been a Catholic church till King Henry changed things. It did look different having the large gold/bronze plates on the alter. Were all the churches just seized?

Yes, all bishops had to sign an oath of allegiance recognizing King Henry VIII’s annulment and new marriage and accepting him as the head of the Church in England. To refuse to accept the Act of Supremacy was considered treason and punishable by death. Only one bishop refused – St. John Fisher. One member of the royal court also refused to sign – St. Thomas More. Both were put to death. All other bishops and members of the royal court capitulated to the king’s demands and a schism was formed. With the exception of the destruction of some sites, such as the shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham (restored by both Catholics and Anglicans in more recent times) and the seizure of the monasteries, most churches remained standing – what was Catholic one day was Church of England the next and then was forced to replace the Mass with a service according to the newly designed Book of Common Prayer (roughly translated from the Sarum Use and combined with some Reformed theology). This forced change led to the Prayer Book Rebellions – the people revolted against the government forcing a religious change on them and many people died.

So King Henry VIII was the head of the Church of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer, held the next highest office (the more practical one). Thus currently, Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Church of England and Dr. Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Other national churches, such as the Episcopal church, are not formally subject to the Church of England, they are just built on the same ideas as the Church of England. However, the Archbishop of Canterbury has a significant symbolic authority over the whole Anglican Communion (all those national churches in communion with Canterbury).

 

[GKC]

Yes, all bishops had to sign an oath of allegiance recognizing King Henry VIII’s annulment and new marriage and accepting him as the head of the Church in England. To refuse to accept the Act of Supremacy was considered treason and punishable by death. Only one bishop refused – St. John Fisher. One member of the royal court also refused to sign – St. Thomas More. Both were put to death. All other bishops and members of the royal court capitulated to the king’s demands and a schism was formed. With the exception of the destruction of some sites, such as the shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham (restored by both Catholics and Anglicans in more recent times) and the seizure of the monasteries, most churches remained standing – what was Catholic one day was Church of England the next and then was forced to replace the Mass with a service according to the newly designed Book of Common Prayer (roughly translated from the Sarum Use and combined with some Reformed theology). This forced change led to the Prayer Book Rebellions – the people revolted against the government forcing a religious change on them and many people died.

So King Henry VIII was the head of the Church of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer, held the next highest office (the more practical one). Thus currently, Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Church of England and Dr. Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Other national churches, such as the Episcopal church, are not formally subject to the Church of England, they are just built on the same ideas as the Church of England. However, the Archbishop of Canterbury has a significant symbolic authority over the whole Anglican Communion (all those national churches in communion with Canterbury).

Yep.

GKC

 

[Zooey]

If an Anglican congregation changes to Catholic, with what I’m hearing about the Ordinariate (sp?), shouldn’t we be able to get the church back?

If the Anglican Church is anything like Methodism (& it often is, John Wesley having living & died an Anglican priest), then the church building does not belong to the congregation; it belongs to the CofE.
Our church building (UMC) was built & paid for by members of the local congregation, & all expenses of maintaining it are still ours…but it belongs to the conference ( rather like a diocese)wherein it is located.

Edited to add: As I started to say, & forgot it, I noticed that St Catherine was indeed mentioned, & I was delighted to see OLPerpetual Help!
Anglicans recognize some official Anglican saints (including both John & Charles Wesley), but to varying degrees, I believe.