St. Catherine of Siena quote source?

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labernadette said:
What is insidious here is the insertion of the insinuation of fundamentalist Protestantism, this is the oldest neo-catholic novus ordo chestnut in the book…the protestantized novus ordoites trying to suggest that those who hold fast to tradition are protestantized! My sides are aching from laughter.
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Doesn’t change the fact that the SSPX has done PRECISELY the same thing as the Protestants do. Laugh away…the truth CAN be amusing.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Doesn’t change the fact that the SSPX has done PRECISELY the same thing as the Protestants do. Laugh away…the truth CAN be amusing.
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I see it as the other way around, the conciliarist church has separated itself from the Truth as taught by Our Lord, Jesus Christ. They no longer follow the true teachings of the church and they teach many errors, ecumenism is number one. Are you going to tell me you haven’t looked at what has happened in the last forty years? If you think the truth can be amusing it is because what** you **consider the truth…isn’t. Yes, your truths of clown masses, gay masses, polka masses, halloween masses…ARE amusing.
 
labernadette said:
I see it as the other way around, the conciliarist church has separated itself from the Truth as taught by Our Lord, Jesus Christ. They no longer follow the true teachings of the church and they teach many errors, ecumenism is number one. Are you going to tell me you haven’t looked at what has happened in the last forty years? If you think the truth can be amusing it is because what** you **consider the truth…isn’t. Yes, your truths of clown masses, gay masses, polka masses, halloween masses…ARE amusing.
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I’m pretty sure JKIRK doesn’t endorse clown masses, gay masses, polka masses, or Halloween masses. He’s just a reverent Novus Ordo guy.
 
paramedicgirl said:
I’m pretty sure JKIRK doesn’t endorse clown masses, gay masses, polka masses, or Halloween masses. He’s just a reverent Novus Ordo guy.
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He doesn’t have to endorse them, they happen all the same. There is no continuity in the Novus Ordo, and they espouse ecumenism. Ecumenism has been condemned by all popes throughout the history of the church up until Vatican II. It goes against the teaching of the Church outside of which there is NO salvation.
 
labernadette said:
I see it as the other way around, the conciliarist church has separated itself from the Truth as taught by Our Lord, Jesus Christ. They no longer follow the true teachings of the church and they teach many errors, ecumenism is number one. Are you going to tell me you haven’t looked at what has happened in the last forty years? If you think the truth can be amusing it is because what** you **consider the truth…isn’t. Yes, your truths of clown masses, gay masses, polka masses, halloween masses…ARE amusing.
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Now it’s my turn to laugh. The Church cannot do other, is INCAPABLE of doing other, than than proclaiming the truth. Some “traditionalists” forget that particular tradition. She is protected from doing so by the Same Lord and Savior you mention in the above. When I look at the last 40 years, I see problems. 40 years is a mere blip on the radar screen in terms of the Church’s time. Also, consult our friend Genesis 315, he can fill you in on the turbulent times that usually follow councils. Clown masses, gay masses, polka masses, etc., are NOT the Church’s truth nor mine.
 
labernadette said:
What is insidious here is the insertion of the insinuation of fundamentalist Protestantism, this is the oldest neo-catholic novus ordo chestnut in the book…the protestantized novus ordoites trying to suggest that those who hold fast to tradition are protestantized! My sides are aching from laughter.
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Both the current postion of certain traditionalists, the position of the non-Chalcedonians, the position of the Old Catholics, are essentially that of the Protestants–they believed the teaching of Rome are in error because they each made the deposit of faith a subject for private judgment. They reject the living magisterium. The difference is, Protestants completely reject Tradition and only exercise private judgment on Scripture, some traditionalists, Old Catholics, and the non-Chalcedonians exercised private judgment concerning both Scripture and Tradition.

It’s not the first time a group erroneously thought a Council betrayed Tradition.
 
Genesis315 said:
Both the current postion of certain traditionalists, the position of the non-Chalcedonians, the position of the Old Catholics, are essentially that of the Protestants–they believed the teaching of Rome are in error because they each made the deposit of faith a subject for private judgment. They reject the living magisterium. The difference is, Protestants completely reject Tradition and only exercise private judgment on Scripture, some traditionalists, Old Catholics, and the non-Chalcedonians exercised private judgment concerning both Scripture and Tradition.

It’s not the first time a group erroneously thought a Council betrayed Tradition.
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Fact of the matter is, this council did betray tradition.
 
labernadette said:
If you want to be clear on obedience to the pope, you need look no further that the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. It is consistent Catholic teaching that obedience is not good in itself, but only according to the end to which it is directed. Obedience to evil or error is evil. Given that one pope was excommunicated, one pope deposed, and about forty others taught heresy, according to the Dogmatic Vatican Council I, there is obviously evil and error in “obeying” some popes.
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So basically we can now chuck St. Catherine because she’s getting hard to argue against? If you’re going to paraphrase VI can you please cite your sources?
 
I deleted several posts. Please return to the OP’s topic. If you wish to discuss any other issues raised by the deleted discussion, please feel free to do so in new threads in the proper fora. Thank you.
 
labernadette said:
…I found this for all of thee …
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Amen, St. Catherine! And yet, this is St. Catherine’s view…

"Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him." (St. Catherine, Letter to Bernabò Visconti)

The Lefebvrists ought to read more about obedience from St. Catherine, I think. 😉
 
itsjustdave1988 said:
Amen, St. Catherine! And yet, this is St. Catherine’s view…

“Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him.” (St. Catherine, Letter to Bernabò Visconti)

The Lefebvrists ought to read more about obedience from St. Catherine, I think. 😉
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You know —what you posted above goes against Catholic teaching. We are not to do a wrong (not defy the vicar even if he were the devil incarnate) so that some type of good will result from it.
 
Walking_Home said:
You know —what you posted above goes against Catholic teaching. We are not to do a wrong (not defy the vicar even if he were the devil incarnate) so that some type of good will result from it.
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Could it be that St. Catherine is of the understanding that the pope cannot give a command that is harmful to the Faith? I mean he could be the biggest idiot in the world *personally *but his teaching capacity is a different story. You’d have to be saying that the pope is teaching an evil, correct?
 
The quote about obeying the pope, “even if he were the devil/a demon incarnate”, is an example of the extremes of papal maximalism.

I would need to research the quote in its full context, but even if Saint Catherine stated this, it’s certainly not a helpful quote in the study of Catholic teaching on obedience.

Obedience isn’t the highest virtue, and obedience at all costs is not Catholic. Clearly the import of the quote, in this thread, is “obedience always!”. That’s simply not Catholic.
 
bear06 said:
Could it be that St. Catherine is of the understanding that the pope cannot give a command that is harmful to the Faith? I mean he could be the biggest idiot in the world *personally *but his teaching capacity is a different story. You’d have to be saying that the pope is teaching an evil, correct?
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It would depend on how St. Catherine meant that statement. I am going by the way itsjustdave1988 is using it to drive home the point on “obedience”. First and foremost we owe our obedience to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustdave1988
Amen, St. Catherine! And yet, this is St. Catherine’s view…

“Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him.” (St. Catherine, Letter to Bernabò Visconti)

The Lefebvrists ought to read more about obedience from St. Catherine, I think.
 
It would depend on how St. Catherine meant that statement. I am going by the way itsjustdave1988 is using it to drive home the point on “obedience”. First and foremost we owe our obedience to God.
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Yes, but it would be wrong to thing that obeying the pope in his official teaching capacity would be somehow different than obeying God. St. Catherine has more than one quote on obedience to the pope. In fact, she had a litany. That said, she made it quite clear that the pope could privately err. Just because a pope privately errs doesn’t mean that we can put our interpretation of an official teaching above his.
 
itsjustdave1988 said:
Amen, St. Catherine! And yet, this is St. Catherine’s view…

“Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him.” (St. Catherine, Letter to Bernabò Visconti)

The Lefebvrists ought to read more about obedience from St. Catherine, I think. 😉
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And everyone ought to read more of St. Catherine to really understand what she was saying. After all, as JKirk said:
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JKirkLVNV:
They accurately quote the source…but only the bits they like.
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I would suggest reading this for more clarity on St. Catherine’s writings about obedience:
spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/894111noffke.html
Catherine (1347-1380) lived in an age when the Church’s authority and credibility were being questioned and severely challenged particularly where political power was concerned. The Church had a definite political identity, political territory and power, and nations and republics then growing into awareness of their own identity and power felt justified in resisting what were truly trespasses on their sovereignty. The feet of ecclesiastical politicians were too obviously clay to be easily kissed! But beneath all this ferment the structures and authority of the Church as a religious institution were quite universally accepted as a given even by those who were restive under the personalities and politics involved. The Protestant Reformation had not yet blossomed. Nor had the theory of separation of church and state.
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Still, the distinctions between church as religious institution and church as political entity were not always so simply drawn within actual situations. Catherine clearly had a sense of the distinctions, and even insisted that it was not politics she was about.(1) But even while she could underscore the relativity of any temporal authority or personality, with just about everyone else of her era she considered religious ecclesiastical authority inviolable. She spoke of the pope as “Christ on earth, whom you are all obliged to obey even to the point of death. Whoever refuses to obey him is … living in damnation.”(2) Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him."(3) “Every faithful Christian is obligated to be faithful and to serve holy church, each according to his or her situation.”(4) Nor might civil authority presume to legislate for or prosecute the clergy, even in clearly civil matters.(5)
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THE QUESTION OF OBEDIENCE
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Passages such as those just cited, especially since they come from the periods of Catherine’s struggles first with the anti-papal league of Milan and Florence and then with the schism centering on the person of Pope Urban VI, may seem rigidly conformist, indeed, almost simplistically so. But there is a key distinction to be noted which is very clear from her writings: the respect and obedience due the pope and other church authorities is founded for her completely on their role as ministers of the Word and of the Blood (the revelation in Jesus of the Truth and Love that is God). Ultimately it is with them that we must be obedient to all that entry into the person and mission of Jesus demands of us. And this is the context in which they themselves must see and hold and be accountable for their authority.
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The dubious quote in question is this…
" There are times when those who obey . . … are heading for Hell." (St. Catherine to Pope Gregory XI, 1376.)
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Yet, St. Catherine’s letters to Gregory are not dated, so we still don’t know which letter to Pope Gregory they THINK they are citing.

Scholars annotate St. Catherine’s letters to Gregory as follows:

To Gregory XIT185To Gregory XIT196To Gregory XIT206
To Gregory XIT233
To Gregory XIT239
To Gregory XIT255

Which one is it? Simple question, should be easy to answer.

I know of no other letters from St. Catherine to Pope Gregory. As soon as they provide a scholarly source for the supposed quote above, I will humbly admit I’m in error. Until then, it seems to me that those who claim the above quote is from St. Catherine either lack scholastic rigor or scholastic integrity.
 
bear06 said:
Yes, but it would be wrong to thing that obeying the pope in his official teaching capacity would be somehow different than obeying God. St. Catherine has more than one quote on obedience to the pope. In fact, she had a litany. That said, she made it quite clear that the pope could privately err. Just because a pope privately errs doesn’t mean that we can put our interpretation of an official teaching above his.
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There can be a problem when the line between a Pope “privately erring” and his official capacity becomes blurred. Using that quote from St. Catherine actually does more to damage the papacy --then help it.
 
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