St Faustina's Hell and modern theological opinion

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How does St Faustina’s vision of Hell fit in with the popular view that Hell is not really a literal place of flames, but rather a ‘state of separation’ from God?

Are we to take St Faustina’s vision metaphorically, then, or are these theologians wrong?
 
Saint Faustina was shown Hell as were the children at Fatima.

Satan wants us to believe that he and hell do not exist. A very clever deceiver indeed.

Personally I have no doubt that hell exists as it was revealed to the aforementioned visions and I do not want to go there.
 
Sultan_Of_Swing said:
How does St Faustina’s vision of Hell fit in with the popular view that Hell is not really a literal place of flames, but rather a ‘state of separation’ from God?

Are we to take St Faustina’s vision metaphorically, then, or are these theologians wrong?
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These are not mutually exclusive views. The state of separation is intensely (fire) agonizing. It is not surprising the vision is perceived and expressed in concepts familiar to the seer.

Peace
 
Nobody can “see” that which is beyond time and space while still alive. Even St. Paul, who was “caught up to the third heaven”, admitted plainly that “no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human mind has conceived” these things.

However, some saints were chosen to see something. Something that is perfectly in agreement with that which Christ, our Lord, had already spoken about these mysteries.

He described the place of eternal damnation as a place where the soul - which, mind you, is purely spiritual! - perceives what we (still in our bodies) perceive in the presence of fire. He shows an image of hell in the valley of Gehenna, so familiar to those to whom He mentioned it - a place where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba’als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their offspring by fire. He speaks about the place “where the fire is not quenched”, about the King who will say “Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels”.

John the Baptist also spoke about Christ and said: “He who is coming after me is mightier than I…His winnowing fork is in His hand…He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire”.

James, speaking of our tongue, says that it is a fire, a world of iniquity, that sets nature on fire…and adds: “is set on fire from hell”.

Finally, the Book of Revelation leads us back to the image of the lake of fire, the “the fiery lake of burning sulfur” where is thrown anyone whose name is not written in the book of life.

Ever since, beginning with John the Beloved, some saints were allowed to see for our instruction - to “see” visions that described heaven, purgatory, and hell.

The most precise depiction of the abode of the damned that I have read was given by the visions of Sr. Josefa Menendez. Her cause for canonization was opened on November 30, 1948. It is said that only some of her visions were collected for publication - in a book that is overall 600 pages long. Since in those days - by decree of Pope Urban VIII - no private revelation could be published without ecclesiastical approval, the book was sent to Eugenio Pacelli, Cardinal Protector of the Society of the Sacred Heart, who in April 1938 - about 1 year before his election as Pope Pius XII - wrote: “I have no doubt whatever that the publication of these pages, filled as they are with great love which His Grace inspired in His very humble servant, Maria Josefa Menendez, will be agreeable to His Sacred Heart.”
 
Sultan_Of_Swing said:
How does St Faustina’s vision of Hell fit in with the popular view that Hell is not really a literal place of flames, but rather a ‘state of separation’ from God?

Are we to take St Faustina’s vision metaphorically, then, or are these theologians wrong?
Click to expand...
Hell is not exactly a state of separation but it is your own disposition and attitude to everything around you including to yourself. When you are in this state your spiritual nature which every one on this planet has within cannot agree with what you have done to it. Our spiritual makeup cannot stand it when we commit very serious sins which the Church labels as mortal. Mortal sins when they are constantly committed by someone actually can change your spiritual nature to one of increase ingratitude, hostility if it is not checked to soon and eventually to a hatred on oneself. What mortal sins bring to the soul is the ultimate hatred of oneself which differentiates the one who is in a heavenly state who can love themselves. These differences are vitally important to understand what actually goes on in each person who either commits mortal sins and to one who does not.

Since the devils are full of hatred for God and towards us, it is logically to point out they have even a greater hatred on themselves. They can never bring themselves out of this hatred because anything that is good for instance the Grace and Mercy of God given to them will actually increase this hatred in them. Souls who are in this type of disposition have attitudes that can reflect this hatred. Their spiritual nature cannot understand what has been changed because heavy sins which they commit are foreign to what our spiritual nature can receive. This been said the visions of the children of Fatima and St. Maria Faustina point to us that yes these flames are figuratively speaking pointing to the increase hatreds that the souls and the devils are going through. No matter what God can send to them it will only increase their hatreds within. This tells us about something about the devil and all those angels who had gone with him to the deepest abyss. The devil is an angel who is in constant torment, full of hatred on himself so that he not only hates himself but all those around him and he is in constant fear.

He hides these fears from us for he actually puts out an illusion that he is in control of himself. But the opposite is true. He is in constant fear of God and he is constant fear of us. That he hides this from us is incredible but as soon as you can learn this about him then you can learn to despise him. He becomes a giant to those who are afraid of him but is turned into the dwarf he actually is when you begin to despise him.

The Lord Jesus cannot have these angels in heaven nor the souls who have inherited this hatred so Jesus gives them a place where they can give out these hatreds. Hell then in this case is your own doing. You have caused this hell to come out of you. If you are in this state at death then sadly the consequences for it to remain in you forever will occur. Why? It has to do with your will. Your will which belongs to your immortal souls is naturally fixed at death. Why? So that you cannot sin anymore. However if your disposition at death is one of hell you will not be able to change since your wills are now fixed. Your chances to get out of hell is in this life. If these visionaries saw the hell and many of the flames that are there it is also a vision of the present state of those who are in a state of hell who have not died yet. You must be in this state while living if you continue it into the next life.
 
Sultan_Of_Swing said:
How does St Faustina’s vision of Hell fit in with the popular view that Hell is not really a literal place of flames, but rather a ‘state of separation’ from God?
Click to expand...
Wait… :ehh: From my understanding, it’s both. 🤷
 
Hell includes four types of punishment:
  1. eternal separation from God; this passive punishment includes the deprivation of all the joys of Heaven. All in Hell have this punishment.
  2. the worm of conscience: the conscience continually accuses the souls of its unrepented actual mortal sins.
  3. the company of other reprobate souls and fallen angels. Just as one of the joys of Heaven is the company of holy angels and saintly souls, so the damned suffer from the company of the denizens of Hell
  4. additional torments for some souls, perceived as bodily sufferings by the soul, even before the general Resurrection.
 
chimo said:
Hell is not exactly a state of separation but it is your own disposition and attitude to everything around you including to yourself. When you are in this state your spiritual nature which every one on this planet has within cannot agree with what you have done to it. Our spiritual makeup cannot stand it when we commit very serious sins which the Church labels as mortal. Mortal sins when they are constantly committed by someone actually can change your spiritual nature to one of increase ingratitude, hostility if it is not checked to soon and eventually to a hatred on oneself. What mortal sins bring to the soul is the ultimate hatred of oneself which differentiates the one who is in a heavenly state who can love themselves. These differences are vitally important to understand what actually goes on in each person who either commits mortal sins and to one who does not.

Since the devils are full of hatred for God and towards us, it is logically to point out they have even a greater hatred on themselves. They can never bring themselves out of this hatred because anything that is good for instance the Grace and Mercy of God given to them will actually increase this hatred in them. Souls who are in this type of disposition have attitudes that can reflect this hatred. Their spiritual nature cannot understand what has been changed because heavy sins which they commit are foreign to what our spiritual nature can receive. This been said the visions of the children of Fatima and St. Maria Faustina point to us that yes these flames are figuratively speaking pointing to the increase hatreds that the souls and the devils are going through. No matter what God can send to them it will only increase their hatreds within. This tells us about something about the devil and all those angels who had gone with him to the deepest abyss. The devil is an angel who is in constant torment, full of hatred on himself so that he not only hates himself but all those around him and he is in constant fear.

He hides these fears from us for he actually puts out an illusion that he is in control of himself. But the opposite is true. He is in constant fear of God and he is constant fear of us. That he hides this from us is incredible but as soon as you can learn this about him then you can learn to despise him. He becomes a giant to those who are afraid of him but is turned into the dwarf he actually is when you begin to despise him.

The Lord Jesus cannot have these angels in heaven nor the souls who have inherited this hatred so Jesus gives them a place where they can give out these hatreds. Hell then in this case is your own doing. You have caused this hell to come out of you. If you are in this state at death then sadly the consequences for it to remain in you forever will occur. Why? It has to do with your will. Your will which belongs to your immortal souls is naturally fixed at death. Why? So that you cannot sin anymore. However if your disposition at death is one of hell you will not be able to change since your wills are now fixed. Your chances to get out of hell is in this life. If these visionaries saw the hell and many of the flames that are there it is also a vision of the present state of those who are in a state of hell who have not died yet. You must be in this state while living if you continue it into the next life.
Click to expand...
A good Enlightening post. Thank you
 
chimo said:
Hell is not exactly a state of separation but it is your own disposition and attitude to everything around you including to yourself. When you are in this state your spiritual nature which every one on this planet has within cannot agree with what you have done to it. Our spiritual makeup cannot stand it when we commit very serious sins which the Church labels as mortal. Mortal sins when they are constantly committed by someone actually can change your spiritual nature to one of increase ingratitude, hostility if it is not checked to soon and eventually to a hatred on oneself. What mortal sins bring to the soul is the ultimate hatred of oneself which differentiates the one who is in a heavenly state who can love themselves. These differences are vitally important to understand what actually goes on in each person who either commits mortal sins and to one who does not.

Since the devils are full of hatred for God and towards us, it is logically to point out they have even a greater hatred on themselves. They can never bring themselves out of this hatred because anything that is good for instance the Grace and Mercy of God given to them will actually increase this hatred in them. Souls who are in this type of disposition have attitudes that can reflect this hatred. Their spiritual nature cannot understand what has been changed because heavy sins which they commit are foreign to what our spiritual nature can receive. This been said the visions of the children of Fatima and St. Maria Faustina point to us that yes these flames are figuratively speaking pointing to the increase hatreds that the souls and the devils are going through. No matter what God can send to them it will only increase their hatreds within. This tells us about something about the devil and all those angels who had gone with him to the deepest abyss. The devil is an angel who is in constant torment, full of hatred on himself so that he not only hates himself but all those around him and he is in constant fear.

He hides these fears from us for he actually puts out an illusion that he is in control of himself. But the opposite is true. He is in constant fear of God and he is constant fear of us. That he hides this from us is incredible but as soon as you can learn this about him then you can learn to despise him. He becomes a giant to those who are afraid of him but is turned into the dwarf he actually is when you begin to despise him.

The Lord Jesus cannot have these angels in heaven nor the souls who have inherited this hatred so Jesus gives them a place where they can give out these hatreds. Hell then in this case is your own doing. You have caused this hell to come out of you. If you are in this state at death then sadly the consequences for it to remain in you forever will occur. Why? It has to do with your will. Your will which belongs to your immortal souls is naturally fixed at death. Why? So that you cannot sin anymore. However if your disposition at death is one of hell you will not be able to change since your wills are now fixed. Your chances to get out of hell is in this life. If these visionaries saw the hell and many of the flames that are there it is also a vision of the present state of those who are in a state of hell who have not died yet. You must be in this state while living if you continue it into the next life.
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A good Enlightening post. Thank you
 
Why don’t people and “modern theological scholars” believe in what Jesus said about Hell?

Believe in what Jesus said about Hell to keep from going there!
 
First, note that a “state of separation from God” is not somehow less bad than a literal place of fire. It’s worse. (The Church teaches both the pain of loss and the pain of sense in Hell, but has always affirmed that the former is the far worse torment.) So those who speak of Hell in terms of separation are not denying that Hell is real and terrible.

There are three ways in which “Hell as separation” seems to fit what we know about God and the soul better than “Hell as literal fire.”

First, literal fire can’t burn a soul, yet the damned suffer in Hell even before the general resurrection.

Second, it is a mistake to limit Hell to a particular location. Again, the souls presently in Hell don’t take up physical space, so speaking of Hell as a place currently is odd. Further, if we picture Satan “roaming about” on the earth or even appearing before the Throne of God (as Scripture illustrates), are we to believe that he is released from Hell at those times? If Hell is primarily a state of the individual soul or spirit rather than a location, then the devil and his demons are “in Hell” constantly, even when about their evil business.

Third and most importantly, we know that God is characterized primarily by love and mercy. Envisioning a literal place of literal fire implies that God specifically created a means of causing unnecessary pain to His creatures, a place that did not have to exist. On the other hand, if Hell is primarily the condition of a soul that has refused communion with God (and could not be otherwise in a universe that includes God and souls that He created), then we avoid the idea that God “made” damnation as an extra, gratuitous thing. (Yes, God is also truth and justice, but to some of us there is a hard-to-explain gap between “perfect justice” and “deliberately constructed eternal torture chamber.”

That said, after the general resurrection the blessed and the damned will have bodies, so at that point it does make sense for Heaven and Hell to be realms that include something equivalent to physical space and even the physical rewards and punishments we often envision. Even then, though, union with or separation from God will be the most important part of the respective experiences.

Usagi
 
Ron_Conte said:
Hell includes four types of punishment:
  1. eternal separation from God; this passive punishment includes the deprivation of all the joys of Heaven. All in Hell have this punishment.
  2. the worm of conscience: the conscience continually accuses the souls of its unrepented actual mortal sins.
  3. the company of other reprobate souls and fallen angels. Just as one of the joys of Heaven is the company of holy angels and saintly souls, so the damned suffer from the company of the denizens of Hell
  4. additional torments for some souls, perceived as bodily sufferings by the soul, even before the general Resurrection.
Click to expand...
Please let us know which document tells us this. As far as I know the Church simply states that the chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God but the Church does not specify what other punishments are.
I am not saying the Church might not state this someplace but its not in the CCC.

Also, as everyone suffers the chief punishment, being eternal separation from God, other punishments by definition are lesser so what real difference does it make to have additional lesser ones.
 
thistle said:
Please let us know which document tells us this. As far as I know the Church simply states that the chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God but the Church does not specify what other punishments are.
I am not saying the Church might not state this someplace but its not in the CCC.

Also, as everyone suffers the chief punishment, being eternal separation from God, other punishments by definition are lesser so what real difference does it make to have additional lesser ones.
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The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

Pope Innocent III: “The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell…”

All the souls in Hell have the punishment of deprivation (eternal separation from God). All the souls other than those who died in “original sin alone” also have active torments.

Also, we cannot ignore the teachings of our Lord on this topic. Jesus called Hell unquenchable fire "where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ " (Mark 9:48 NABRE)

The “worm of conscience” is the interpretation of Saint Augustine, Saint Bede (in the Golden Catena), and Saint Aquinas.

Also, the parable of Jesus on Lazarus and the rich man, who died and went to Hell says this:

"And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ " (Luke 16:24 NABRE)

So the suffering of eternal separation from God is not the only suffering of Hell. Also, it would be unjust if God punished all in Hell with the same degree and type of punishment. So some souls have sinned more, and therefore are punished more.
 
Ron_Conte said:
The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

Pope Innocent III: “The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell…”

All the souls in Hell have the punishment of deprivation (eternal separation from God). All the souls other than those who died in “original sin alone” also have active torments.

Also, we cannot ignore the teachings of our Lord on this topic. Jesus called Hell unquenchable fire "where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ " (Mark 9:48 NABRE)

The “worm of conscience” is the interpretation of Saint Augustine, Saint Bede (in the Golden Catena), and Saint Aquinas.

Also, the parable of Jesus on Lazarus and the rich man, who died and went to Hell says this:

"And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ " (Luke 16:24 NABRE)

So the suffering of eternal separation from God is not the only suffering of Hell. Also, it would be unjust if God punished all in Hell with the same degree and type of punishment. So some souls have sinned more, and therefore are punished more.
Click to expand...
Thanks. At least I know the specific other punishments are not an official teaching of the Church.
I still don’t understand why additional punishments will bother anyone in Hell. The Chief punishment is eternal separation from God. That applies to all there and no punishment can be worse than that so I don’t believe anyone there will care if additional lesser punishments are thrown in.
 
Ron_Conte said:
Pope Innocent III: “The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell…”
Click to expand...
But wait we changed that didn’t we? :confused: As in we got rid of Limbo?
 
followingtheway said:
But wait we changed that didn’t we? :confused: As in we got rid of Limbo?
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We did not “get rid” of the Limbus Puerorum, as it was a matter discussed for centuries and rooted on very strong premises…and as truth is not subject to change, nor are the teachings of the Church on faith and morals…rather, the Church embraced a greater theological hope, all the while urging parents to baptize their infants as it has been done since the apostolic age.
 
thistle said:
no punishment can be worse than that so I don’t believe anyone there will care if additional lesser punishments are thrown in
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I am not sure…in heaven, nothing is greater than the Beatific Vision, the essential glory of the saints…but we learn that there is also an accidental glory…the special glory attached to different indivuals with their different pasts…a glory that differs with each individual…therefore we can argue that the opposite applies to the state of hell…where the essential punishment is indeed to be eternally separated from the Beatific Vision, and the accidental punishments depend on the sins of the individual…
 
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