St. Francis a sinner?

[Lazerlike42]

Please understand that I am trying to wrap my mind around these things, not be argumentative for the sake of it or for some sinister reason.

As I learn about St. Francis and the first brothers, I am having a hard time seeing Jesus Christ in them so much as seeing Robin Hood in them. They seemed to be rather frequently involved in taking food or other things that did not belong to them for their own use or for the sake of serving the poor. I understand, vaguely, the concept of the universal destination of goods and that a poor person can, when in urgent need, take something that does not belong to him or her without comitting theft.

My problems are twofold. What constitutes urgency? To me, urgency is not merely being hungry or being without, but being starving to nearly the point of death.

My second problem is that St. Francis was not poor out of necessity, but by choice. He chose to own nothing and live the lifestyle as he did, leaving behind a home wherein he would not have to worry about such things. If he had not eaten for a day or two, he would have been suffering a need that he voluntarilly put upon himself, not a need put upon him by unfortunate circumstances.

On top of this, and perhaps more importantly, his entire basis for living without any property, one which he frequently offered in defense of this way of life, was that God would provide for them. They would trust in God, as did the birds of the air, and trust in Him, and God would provide. If God has, in a given situation, yet to provide, would not taking the food of another in some way portray a lack of trust in or lack of patience with God? I can’t get around the idea that if on a given day God chose not to provide through the begging of the friars or an unexpected donor that He may send (something which happened frequently enough that it could even be expected), that the right thing to do would be to accept the suffering out of trust in God.

So many other saints have born the suffering of God not providing for them in various ways without taking steps to provide for themselves, why not St. Francis?

 

[Em_in_FL]

Please understand that I am trying to wrap my mind around these things, not be argumentative for the sake of it or for some sinister reason.

As I learn about St. Francis and the first brothers, I am having a hard time seeing Jesus Christ in them so much as seeing Robin Hood in them. They seemed to be rather frequently involved in taking food or other things that did not belong to them for their own use or for the sake of serving the poor. I understand, vaguely, the concept of the universal destination of goods and that a poor person can, when in urgent need, take something that does not belong to him or her without comitting theft.

My problems are twofold. What constitutes urgency? To me, urgency is not merely being hungry or being without, but being starving to nearly the point of death.

My second problem is that St. Francis was not poor out of necessity, but by choice. He chose to own nothing and live the lifestyle as he did, leaving behind a home wherein he would not have to worry about such things. If he had not eaten for a day or two, he would have been suffering a need that he voluntarilly put upon himself, not a need put upon him by unfortunate circumstances.

On top of this, and perhaps more importantly, his entire basis for living without any property, one which he frequently offered in defense of this way of life, was that God would provide for them. They would trust in God, as did the birds of the air, and trust in Him, and God would provide. If God has, in a given situation, yet to provide, would not taking the food of another in some way portray a lack of trust in or lack of patience with God? I can’t get around the idea that if on a given day God chose not to provide through the begging of the friars or an unexpected donor that He may send (something which happened frequently enough that it could even be expected), that the right thing to do would be to accept the suffering out of trust in God.

So many other saints have born the suffering of God not providing for them in various ways without taking steps to provide for themselves, why not St. Francis?

A very good movie on the life of St. Francis is called “Brother Sun, Sister Moon”… I highly recommend you look into renting that…
I learned a lot about his life from that movie… his place in life, his conversion, and why he lived the way he did.

From what I remember (bear with me, I don’t have a perfect memory)… he was born into a wealthy family, in a town where there was GREAT disparity between the rich and poor. As a young man went off to fight in the crusades. When he returned he was near death with an illness and had a major conversion.

I think the disparity between the rich and poor in Assisi is part of the reason for his major conversion. He felt compassion for these truly poor people who WERE urgently in need of bread…

Does his life and conversion apply today? Yes… not necessarily in EXACTLY the same circumstances (as in today’s world we have safety nets like welfare, etc), but there is still a lot we can learn…

I understand your difficulty. Don’t stress on the exact motives and circumstances of St. Francis’ time… but pull the universal lessons of simplicity and compassion from this wonderful Saint’s life…

HTH!

 

[Lazerlike42]

Thanks for the suggestions. I’m not at all struggling with accepting the spirit of Francis, which in many ways is my personal spirit as well. I’m struggling with the impression that one of the most venerated saints in history had a philosophy based on what appear to be sins.

 

[StCsDavid]

Thanks for the suggestions. I’m not at all struggling with accepting the spirit of Francis, which in many ways is my personal spirit as well. I’m struggling with the impression that one of the most venerated saints in history had a philosophy based on what appear to be sins.

Saints were not always perfect. Some of the greatest saints were spectacular sinners. Candidly, I haven’t read enough about St. Francis to know if he ever professed that it was a moral good to steal from the rich to give to the poor. It’s easy to Monday morning quarterback his tactics, but we might do better to follow his model of simplicity. If he was just a thief with a big heart, I doubt he would be the Patron Saint of Italy…then again, having visited that beautiful country…petty theft is almost a national sport. I mean that with no disrespect to my Italian brethren. The biggest crime over there is petty theft. If only we were so blessed here in the US.

 

[Della]

Please understand that I am trying to wrap my mind around these things, not be argumentative for the sake of it or for some sinister reason.

As I learn about St. Francis and the first brothers, I am having a hard time seeing Jesus Christ in them so much as seeing Robin Hood in them. They seemed to be rather frequently involved in taking food or other things that did not belong to them for their own use or for the sake of serving the poor…

Not that I doubt you, but I never heard this before and I have read more than one biography of St. Francis. Could you provide a source for this?

 

[puzzleannie]

As I learn about St. Francis and the first brothers, I am having a hard time seeing Jesus Christ in them so much as seeing Robin Hood in them. They seemed to be rather frequently involved in taking food or other things that did not belong to them for their own use or for the sake of serving the poor. I understand, vaguely, the concept of the universal destination of goods and that a poor person can, when in urgent need, take something that does not belong to him or her without comitting theft.
?

I have read every bio of Francis I could find in English as well as the letters of Francis and Clare, and I do not find or recall this allegation. Could you please provide a source. Thank you.

 

[LilyM]

The story of Francis, like the life stories of most all the saints, is a story of progression INTO sanctity. It is rare if not unheard of that saints are born fully formed as such. Thus we can’t take every single deed or attitude of any of them for granted. All must be examined.

We can see, for example that Francis started by interpreting the call to ‘rebuild my church’ firstly as meaning rebuilding the physical building of San Damiano. It was only later that he understood that those words really meant that he should form his order to be a beacon of Christ in a very materialistic and secular age which unfortunately had spread its poison to the Church as well.

So perhaps with his love of poverty. Perhaps he went a little overboard in some ways in his attitude to material possessions. Any sins of excess in this regard were, we can be certain, acknowledged, repented and forgiven. In some cases, for example his theft of his father’s goods, he was making a point about his own family’s rather hardheaded and hardhearted attachment to their material status.

Mind you Christ himself willingly chose poverty as well. Who knows what he could have done in terms of practical charity if he had been son and heir to all the wealth of King Herod, for example? But he willingly rejected wealth and status so as to better call attention to the plight of the poor by himself becoming one of them.

Not that we are called to be as extreme as Christ or Francis, but certainly we need to cultivate the spirit of identification with the poor, of detachment from wealth and status and of generosity.

 

[drafdog]

Francis and his companions were mendicants. That is a fancy word for “beggars.” They begged for food rather than have money or possessions of any sort. It was even problematic for Francis to own a prayer book. His evangelical poverty was so radical that a group of Cardinals in Rome suggested to the Pope that he be excommunicated. Yes, radical poverty to the point that you must beg for each and every meal is really strange, but it is the way of the Little Brothers.

Matthew

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I find it uplifting that so many of the heavy hitters in Christian history were no better than I in a lot of ways.

Peter denied knowing Christ three times.

Paul persecuted Christians.

Mary Magdalene was a prostitue or an adulteress, depending on whom you ask.

Matthew was a tax collector.

Augustine, if I recall my theology class correctly, started out with something like “make me holy, but not just yet”.

Look at the Old Testament, too:

Moses: “I don’t wanna!”

Noah: “Are you sure?”

Abraham: “I know you promised me a son, but you probably meant I should hook up with this servant…right?”

Adam: “Eh, whatever.”

People aren’t born saints – they become saints in spite of their sinfulness by the Grace of God.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Lazerlike42]

The book I was reading is St. Francis of Assisi by Omer Englebert. It seems to quote from Boneventure and other contemporaries extensively and more or less use them as sources.

My concern is that some of these things occured when Francis was well along his journey. I notice myself a progression in his life in terms of handling things better as he moved along. For instance, while trying to go to the Holy Land, he and brother Bernard snuck aboard a boat after having been denied boarding for lack of money to pay their way.

 

[LilyM]

I find it uplifting that so many of the heavy hitters in Christian history were no better than I in a lot of ways.

Peace,
Dante

Not to mention dear Jonah, God love him, one of my favourite Old Testament characters, who had to be dragged kicking and screaming courtesy of the whale to Nineveh to pass on God’s message to them!

 

[LilyM]

The book I was reading is St. Francis of Assisi by Omer Englebert. It seems to quote from Boneventure and other contemporaries extensively and more or less use them as sources.

My concern is that some of these things occured when Francis was well along his journey. I notice myself a progression in his life in terms of handling things better as he moved along. For instance, while trying to go to the Holy Land, he and brother Bernard snuck aboard a boat after having been denied boarding for lack of money to pay their way.

Well again, read more lives of other saints, most of 'em don’t have a smooth and steady road onward and upward to holiness either, there are relapses and struggles, two steps forward then one step back.

Look at Peter - was it all clear sailing for him after Pentecost? Hardly! He put his foot in it bigtime with the Judaizers and had to be reasoned with by Paul(although I imagine Paul did a lot more than calmly reason with him!)

One of my favourites for this very reason is St Margaret of Cortona, who had rather a weakness for males of the opposite gender, and progressed and relapsed and progressed and relapsed numerous times during her life.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

The book I was reading is St. Francis of Assisi by Omer Englebert. It seems to quote from Boneventure and other contemporaries extensively and more or less use them as sources.

My concern is that some of these things occured when Francis was well along his journey. I notice myself a progression in his life in terms of handling things better as he moved along. For instance, while trying to go to the Holy Land, he and brother Bernard snuck aboard a boat after having been denied boarding for lack of money to pay their way.

This is what’s causing you to wonder about Francis’ sinfulness? I’m not familiar with the story, but it seems to me this is a minor thing.

How many men died on St. Joan’s sword? Was this not for God’s glory, somehow? I’d say the same true about Francis’ “theft” of passage to the Holy Land.

Peace,
Dante

 

[LilyM]

This is what’s causing you to wonder about Francis’ sinfulness? I’m not familiar with the story, but it seems to me this is a minor thing.

How many men died on St. Joan’s sword? Was this not for God’s glory, somehow? I’d say the same true about Francis’ “theft” of passage to the Holy Land.

Peace,
Dante

Actually St Joan never personally killed or injured anyone … though of course men of both sides died fighting under her command, so your point is made.

 

[Della]

The book I was reading is St. Francis of Assisi by Omer Englebert. It seems to quote from Boneventure and other contemporaries extensively and more or less use them as sources.

My concern is that some of these things occured when Francis was well along his journey. I notice myself a progression in his life in terms of handling things better as he moved along. For instance, while trying to go to the Holy Land, he and brother Bernard snuck aboard a boat after having been denied boarding for lack of money to pay their way.

As I recall, Francis and his companion had asked free passage because they were doing God’s work, and so expected they would find passage with a Catholic ship. In those days fellow Catholics were expected to help in doing God’s work through the means God had given them (as we are today), so Francis could/would expect the Catholic captain would give him passage. That he had to sneak on board tells us more about the lack of faith and religious duty of the captain of the ship than it does about the character of St. Francis.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t recall reading where St. Francis took from others and gave it to others. Francis begged for food and clothing which he gave to the poor, but I don’t recall him stealing ALA Robinhood.

Jim

 

[Lazerlike42]

As I recall, Francis and his companion had asked free passage because they were doing God’s work, and so expected they would find passage with a Catholic ship. In those days fellow Catholics were expected to help in doing God’s work through the means God had given them (as we are today), so Francis could/would expect the Catholic captain would give him passage. That he had to sneak on board tells us more about the lack of faith and religious duty of the captain of the ship than it does about the character of St. Francis.

I don’t see how this is possible, though it may be. Francis and brother Bernard were going to the Holy Land when their ship had to stop en route. At the stop, Francis was told that no ships were leaving for the Holy Land for some great period of time, and so he decided to return home. It was at this time that the incident I described occured.