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ConstantineTG
Guest
Today is the feast day of St. Francis of Asisi. He’s one of my favorite saints. How well received or recognized is he in the Eastern Churches?
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
I don’t know if he is on the Melkite Calendar, but i have a Ukranian Calendar before me and it lists St. Francis’ commemoration today.
I would say it depends on the catholic. Some Byzantines probably have devotion to him and others don’t. He is a post schism so he would have had to been added after communion with Rome.
Some orthodox don’t like him because of the nature of his passionate spirituality.
I would say it depends on the catholic. Some Byzantines probably have devotion to him and others don’t. He is a post schism so he would have had to been added after communion with Rome.
Some orthodox don’t like him because of the nature of his passionate spirituality.
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DL82
Guest
I know some Eastern Christians make a connection between St Francis & St Seraphin of Surov (sp?) both led ascetic lives, both were wandering preachers, both had great respect for animals and for nature. St Seraphin was much more recent I believe.
St Bonaventure, a disciple of St Francis and Doctor of the Catholic Church, was in large part responsible for the Council of Florence which attempted reconciliation between East and West.
I am aware that there exist Eastern Catholic religious orders in the Franciscan family.
St Bonaventure, a disciple of St Francis and Doctor of the Catholic Church, was in large part responsible for the Council of Florence which attempted reconciliation between East and West.
I am aware that there exist Eastern Catholic religious orders in the Franciscan family.
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bkovacs
Guest
St. Seraphim of Sarov.
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
Seraphim of Sarov is often used a comparison to St. Francis since they have similarities in their lives and gives Western Christians a frame of reference to the veneration we have for Saint Seraphim.
A similar thing is done with Gregory Palamas and Thomas Aquanias.
A similar thing is done with Gregory Palamas and Thomas Aquanias.
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Pakesh
Guest
I wonder if you could expound on what you mean? I’m not familiar with that. And, just FYI to anyone who reads this, I don’t want to derail the thread and start a debate. Perhaps some of the Orthodox Forum members could respond. Thanks.
God Bless, Pakesh
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trophybearer
Guest
This should explain…
orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
I find the style of the article a bit harsh(especially the first paragraph), but the points it makes quite valid. Personally, I have no belief one way or the other concerning the sanctity of St. Francis.
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
I’ve read that article and it seems rather polemical and I believe the person who wrote it is not part of any church in communion with the Ecumenical Patriachate. However in talking with Orthodox folk I have had a few offhand comments about Francis. Others have venerated him. I think the current policy amongst at least the Antiochian Church is while venerable certain Roman Catholics like Francis are to remain private devotions and not celebrated by the church.
Even in the Byzantine tradition (And I’m speaking from a Byzantine Catholic position) certain saints like the Carmelite mystics (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila and Teresa of Lisieux) are looked upon a little oddly. As far as I know they are not commemorated on any Byzantine Church calendar. Their mystical experiences are characterized as being overly emotional compared with that of Byzantine mystics.
Even in the Byzantine tradition (And I’m speaking from a Byzantine Catholic position) certain saints like the Carmelite mystics (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila and Teresa of Lisieux) are looked upon a little oddly. As far as I know they are not commemorated on any Byzantine Church calendar. Their mystical experiences are characterized as being overly emotional compared with that of Byzantine mystics.
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chaldobyzantine
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Holy Dormition Byzantine Franciscan Monastery has an icon of Saint Francis in their iconostasis. (I know there’s a contradiction in the sentence I just wrote somewhere…)
The iconostasis photo: flickr.com/photos/vladimir-911/2051754480/
What I found weird is that there is an icon of Saint Nicholas and Saint Francis instead of an icon depicting the Dormition of the Theotokos in the iconostasis.
The iconostasis photo: flickr.com/photos/vladimir-911/2051754480/
What I found weird is that there is an icon of Saint Nicholas and Saint Francis instead of an icon depicting the Dormition of the Theotokos in the iconostasis.
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trophybearer
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I can’t speak for all, but I’m in the Antiochian Church here in the US and I’ve never met anyone with even a private devotion to St. Francis (or any other Catholic Saint for that matter). They just aren’t even on the radar. I think it goes without saying they aren’t celebrated in our Churches.
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Holly3278
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Personally, I always find it odd that other Christians feel that they have the right to judge the spiritual and mystical experiences of other Christians. Just because it something that a person does not understand does not give that person the right to judge the person who experienced it. Therefore, I leave the appropriate judgment up to competent Church authorities such as priests, bishops, and perhaps some sort of organization that is dedicated to exploring the authenticity and veracity of such mystical experiences. I mean, unless it is just obviously demonic or condemned by the Church, I see no reason to judge another person’s mystical experiences. I know of at least a few lay Catholics who have had visions and such (myself included) and I do not judge them. And yes, I spoke to my priest about these visions and he told me that they may very well be God’s way of affirming something as true to me.
But regardless, this post is not about me but about those who would seek to judge the mystical experiences of others.
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Formosus
Guest
You are thinking the council of Lyons, not Florence. Originally Aquinas was supposed to attend Lyons as well but he fell ill and died before it started.
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
That seems a little contradictory. I get what you are saying, and I try not to pass judgment on another’s personal piety. C.S. Lewis mentions this in Letters to Malcolm
"One meets people who are perturbed because someone in the next pew does, or does not, cross himself. They oughn’t even to have seen, let alone censured. “Who art thou that judgest Another’s Servant?” *
I’m only repeating what priests have told me about the byzantine tradition. We CAN disagree. Many of the fathers had disagreements of faith which is why we take the CONSENSUS of the fathers.
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Holly3278
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I apologize if you thought that I was judging you or anyone else. I did not intend to come across that way. I was just simply expressing my belief that it is wrong for someone to judge another person’s own personal spirituality. Sorry.
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Little_Boy_Lost
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No worries Holly!
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Alexander_Roman
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Dear Friends,
Saint Francis of Assisi has a history of being privately venerated by Orthodox Christians. In France, the Russian emigre community there venerate him privately very much (together with St Therese of Lisieux and the penitential spirituality of La Salette and even Lourdes - all on a private level).
It is not surprising to find icons of St Francis in the homes of Orthodox Christians, here and there, either. The Orthodox monastery of New Skete in New York State was a Byzantine Catholic Franciscan monastery before it became Orthodox - they continue to print icons of St Francis and St Clare and to venerate them privately (just as Anglicans who become Orthodox or Catholic continue to privately venerate King Charles I - Blessed King Charles the Martyr).
There are also Byzantine Catholic Franciscans who, of course, venerate their Founder liturgically. One would find him in Ukrainian Catholic and Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic calendars - it would depend on the Synod of a given Particular Eastern Catholic Church. For example, the Melkite Patriarchate decided to accept into its calendar the feast of Corpus Christi and also that of the “falling asleep of the Righteous Joseph the Betrothed” on March 19th (St Joseph is honoured throughout the Byzantine East on the Sunday after Christmas).
I had once corresponded with the Orthodox theologian, Fr. John Meyendorff (+ memory eternal!). He used to always use stamps with a picture of St Francis on them. He actually had a great private veneration for the “Holy Man of Assisi” as he called him. He told me that the private veneration of holy persons who were not formally Orthodox is not forbidden by the Orthodox Church.
However, we should also realize that if the Catholic and Orthodox Churches reunite (hopefully that is a “when” rather than an “if”), it would be perfectly legitimate for Particular Churches to adopt saints of other Churches as happened with the Saints of Georgia.
Alex
Saint Francis of Assisi has a history of being privately venerated by Orthodox Christians. In France, the Russian emigre community there venerate him privately very much (together with St Therese of Lisieux and the penitential spirituality of La Salette and even Lourdes - all on a private level).
It is not surprising to find icons of St Francis in the homes of Orthodox Christians, here and there, either. The Orthodox monastery of New Skete in New York State was a Byzantine Catholic Franciscan monastery before it became Orthodox - they continue to print icons of St Francis and St Clare and to venerate them privately (just as Anglicans who become Orthodox or Catholic continue to privately venerate King Charles I - Blessed King Charles the Martyr).
There are also Byzantine Catholic Franciscans who, of course, venerate their Founder liturgically. One would find him in Ukrainian Catholic and Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic calendars - it would depend on the Synod of a given Particular Eastern Catholic Church. For example, the Melkite Patriarchate decided to accept into its calendar the feast of Corpus Christi and also that of the “falling asleep of the Righteous Joseph the Betrothed” on March 19th (St Joseph is honoured throughout the Byzantine East on the Sunday after Christmas).
I had once corresponded with the Orthodox theologian, Fr. John Meyendorff (+ memory eternal!). He used to always use stamps with a picture of St Francis on them. He actually had a great private veneration for the “Holy Man of Assisi” as he called him. He told me that the private veneration of holy persons who were not formally Orthodox is not forbidden by the Orthodox Church.
However, we should also realize that if the Catholic and Orthodox Churches reunite (hopefully that is a “when” rather than an “if”), it would be perfectly legitimate for Particular Churches to adopt saints of other Churches as happened with the Saints of Georgia.
Alex
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Pakesh
Guest
I guess I just don’t get it
It seems to me (and no offense at all intended) sad that Eastern Christians can have “issues” with a Saint because their mysticism is different. I don’t see the same thing happening the other way (Western having issues because of Eastern Mysticism). I understand how certain Saints may be not be in the patrimony or Tradition of one Church or the other, but to discount them because of their spirituality or differences in it seems very unfortunate to me.
God Bless,
Pakesh
p.s. Thank you to the poster who posted the link.
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Alveus_Lacuna
Guest
Stigmata is on the Orthodox Red Flags list.
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
I too have looked at this article in the past and find it utterly repulsive in its lack of both genuine knowledge of the life and spirituality of St. Francis, as well as its polemical tirade against the legitimate mysticism of the West (as though Byzantine mysticism is the only legitimate expression of life in Christ). How can one judge the spiritual life of St. Francis while not taking the appropriate steps to understand the historical and religious context that gave rise to his spirituality? We cannot judge Francis’ spiritual life based on Byzantine assumptions of what the spiritual life is/ought to be. Francis was not Byzantine, he was an Italian Roman Catholic. So given the Roman “phronema” in which he was raised (whatever the Roman phronema actually is [and no, it’s not legalistic/rationalistic]), what can we conclude about Francis’ himself and his spirituality? That’s the question that we need to be asking.
Personally I’ve had a great affinity towards Francis since I was about four years old (an affinity that led me to choose him as my Confirmation saint). It was a life-long dream of mine to visit Assisi and walk around the town where Francis spent his entire life; a dream that was fulfilled only a few years ago. I attended/attend a university that is dedicated to following the spirituality that Francis gave us. I was fortunate enough to study under one of the world’s leading experts on St. Francis and his Order while attending that University. So even as an Eastern Catholic, Francis will always remain near and dear to my heart. He is my closest friend in the Communion of Saints.
Francis was remarkable for his ability to remain 100% focused on Christ and not to get caught up in the theological debates and Church disciplinary problems of his time. He maintained that focus even after he was no longer the superior of his Order and when the Order that he founded began to stray away from the original charism and Rule of his own devising. “It’s in God’s hands,” was his mentality. How many of us, Catholic or Orthodox, can say the same? His humility knew no bounds. He was able to recognize when he was wrong and seek pardon when he wronged others. His zeal for Christ and the Gospel message was limitless, even to the point of risking his life in an attempt to spread the Gospel to the Muslims (how many of us would dare to do such a thing now?). He was deeply repentant of his sins, which were certainly many prior to his conversion, and he frequently wept bitterly over them, to the point that he was basically blind by the time he died (St. John Climacus would certainly have no problem with the amount of weeping that Francis did). Yet his sorrow for his sins did not lead him into despair, but gave him a true joy and hope in Christ and his saving plan for us. Francis was not emotional in the worst sense of the term, but he focused his emotions, like everything else, 100% on Christ (a call that the Fathers of the Philokalia as well as Theophan the Recluse are unanimous in giving). So I have to ask, where is there anything in the life and spirituality of St. Francis that an Eastern Christian would have a problem with? If we must classify him as anything, why can’t we just call him a “fool for Christ” and leave it at that?
Personally, as a Melkite Greek Catholic, I continue to honor St. Francis and hope one day to see him and stand together with him, my true brother in Christ, before the awesome throne of God. St. Francis, pray for me and for all of us!
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Pakesh
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Question, what is meant by “looked upon a little oddly?” Why? I understand how Western Saints may not be “on the radar” (for lack of a better term) of Eastern Churches and vice versa, but what is upsetting is what appears to me to be attitude of dismissal because a Saint’s style of spirituality or mysticism is different.
i.e. the attitude “this is what true mysticism is…”I hope I articulated myself well. Please know that it is not my intention to offend. It’s just this particular issue, as it concerns East West relationships often gets me sad or upset.
God Bless,
Pakesh
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