St. Francis in the Eastern Churches?

[trophybearer]

I lived in Greece for 2 years a number of years ago and attended the Divine Liturgy and other services in the Orthodox church while there.

I found it odd that often you would find icons of St Francis in the Orthodox churches, sometimes icons of St Francis alone but more ofter icons of other saints with St Francis painted in the corner. When I asked a priest about this I was told that although St Francis was not officially on the Orthodox calender he was often venerated privately. I attended a icon procession for the Sunday of Orthodoxy and saw MANY icons of St Francis being carried by the faithful.

Leave it to the Greeks.

 

[dvdjs]

Bishop Kallistos in “the Orthodox Church” writes:

It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must not, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the west, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, London, 1943, p. 37). Similarly, in the east stigmatization is not unknown: in the Coptic life of Saint Macarius of Egypt, it is said that a cherub appeared to him, ‘took the measure of his chest,’ and ‘crucified him on the earth’). In the words of Gregory Palamas: ‘If in the age to come the body will share with the soul in unspeakable blessings, it is certain that it must share in them, so far as possible, even now’ (The Tome of the Holy Mountain (P.G. 150, 1233C).

Just for emphasis: “… in the east stigmatization is not unknown”

 

[trophybearer]

Bishop Kallistos in “the Orthodox Church” writes:

Just for emphasis: “… in the east stigmatization is not unknown”

Isn’t it? Because it actually is. I’d want a few examples, and not just one sentence pulled from a hagiography of St Gregory Palamas. You’d think the whole Orthodox world would be aware of this tradition regarding St Gregory were it what you claim it to be. Strangely enough it only seems to be known to a handful of Roman Catholics who seem determined to use it to suit their agenda. You guys never seem to have a problem explaining to us what we were unaware we believed. Nothing to feel offended by in that… no Sir! If only people would listen even half as much as they talk.

 

[ciero]

Isn’t it? Because it actually is. I’d want a few examples, and not just one sentence pulled from a hagiography of St Gregory Palamas. You’d think the whole Orthodox world would be aware of this tradition regarding St Gregory were it what you claim it to be. Strangely enough it only seems to be known to a handful of Roman Catholics who seem determined to use it to suit their agenda. You guys never seem to have a problem explaining to us what we were unaware we believed. Nothing to feel offended by in that… no Sir! If only people would listen even half as much as they talk.

Seems to me most Orthodox here in the US (especially the converts) have no idea what goes on in Orthodoxy in the mother countries. I travel extensively throughout the Orthodox wold (lived in Greece for 2 years & get back there for at least a month every year, Egypt, Russia, Romania and the middle east). As I said earlier I have seem St. Francis venerated publicly in Greece. I would not be surprised if St. Gregory having the stigmata is part of the traditions in these parts as well.

 

[trophybearer]

Seems to me most Orthodox here in the US (especially the converts) have no idea what goes on in Orthodoxy in the mother countries. I travel extensively throughout the Orthodox wold (lived in Greece for 2 years & get back there for at least a month every year, Egypt, Russia, Romania and the middle east). As I said earlier I have seem St. Francis venerated publicly in Greece. I would not be surprised if St. Gregory having the stigmata is part of the traditions in these parts as well.

“I would not be suprised if…” Well, that settles it! What more proof need we? I’ve seen clowns distribute the Eucharist in Catholic Churches- so that must make it right. More of that good old Catholic condescention. You guys give me chest pains. I think I’ll not post again. Good luck with the propaganda and misinformation party.

Cheers.

 

[dvdjs]

Isn’t it? Because it actually is. I’d want a few examples, and not just one sentence pulled from a hagiography of St Gregory Palamas. You’d think the whole Orthodox world would be aware of this tradition regarding St Gregory were it what you claim it to be. Strangely enough it only seems to be known to a handful of Roman Catholics who seem determined to use it to suit their agenda. You guys never seem to have a problem explaining to us what we were unaware we believed. Nothing to feel offended by in that… no Sir! If only people would listen even half as much as they talk.

I like this post, because I couldn’t agree more on the more listening point; it is a recurrent theme of my posts. However, I think there should be some discernment on who we spend more time listening to. Bishop Kallistos - although certainly not beyond error - is a good choice. Now, who would you like to present as an opponent to his scholarly opinion?

Many if not most of the netodox are recent converts whose knowledge is limited, and who are far more experienced in reading about orthodoxy than in breathing it. Those who frequent vigil would know the synaxarion, the festal stichera, and so forth, and therefore have some background that makes them less doctrinaire in grasping for distinctions between East and West. Whether it is stigmata, or the sinlessness of the Theotokos, ontology, eschatology, etc., there is a phromena that develops by exposure to what the church teaches in its liturgy. This is the Tradition that nourished the East long before the printing press and literacy opened other, less well tested, avenues of spiritual development.

And it does so happen that there are many Eastern Catholics (not Roman btw - neither Alex, nor Ciero, nor I are Roman Catholic) on the net who are far more experienced in Eastern Christianity than most all Orthodox posters. You have to live with that. Alex Roman, btw, happens to be one of them; a good person with whom to practice your idea of talking less and listening more.

 

[dvdjs]

I’ve seen clowns distribute the Eucharist in Catholic Churches- so that must make it right.

Really?

I’ve been trying to collect documentation on clown masses, but so far with little success. In fact, the ratio of internet claims to actual events is in excess of 1 million to one. I would very much like the date and name of the parish that you attended and saw clowns distributing communion.

 

[dcointin]

Thank you!

I personally would say that the passage from the Lenten Synaxarion on St. Gregory Palamas could refer to stigmata, but it’s inconclusive. I would need to see more evidence before I made a decision one way or the other about it. I’ll check my copy of “The Orthodox Church” tonight and see if he references his claim about eastern stigmatics.

 

[dcointin]

Yes, I’ve come across Orthodox who deny St Gregory ever bore the stigmata as well. They see it as a Western thing.

It certainly isn’t something that is popular in the Eastern Churches and it is never depicted in iconography (even Christ is never depicted with the marks of the nails, as far as I know).

As for the vagueness - it is more definite than references to the stigmata of Catholic saints that I’ve read.

Whether or not this relates to stigmata, I don’t know. But there is an Eastern tradition that relates to the wearing around the neck of the Lord’s Cross.

If someone should ask one about it, we are to say, “I bear on my body the Marks of the Lord Jesus” quoting St Paul.

Also, Orthodox and EC monastics of the Great Schema wear representations of the Crucifixion on their monastic robes with the same verse sewn in at the edges.

It probably relates to the “marks” of the Cross.

I’ve no doubt personally that St Gregory bore the stigmata.

As for not finding other references online - the internet is great, but is hardly the penultimate reference, as you know.

Once, on an Eastern Christian forum, I asserted that the Rosary was popular in the East and was practiced by Orthodox saints (St Seraphim of Sarov himself said that our Lady told him in a vision that the Rosary/Rule of the Theotokos of 150 Hail Mary’s was the most important devotion a Christian could practice in her honour to secure her protection in life and death).

But because there were no English language references available online for this, and because the only other articles on this were ones written by myself, my conclusion was dismissed as inadmissable and even “tendentious” on my part, as if I had an interest in imposing western devotions on Eastern Christians (believe me, nothing is further from the truth).

And in addition to books and articles on subjects, it is also good to speak directly with theologians, bishops and priests who are acquainted with the subjects we are seeking information about. It is often the case that they are living repositories of knowledge that they have brought with them from far-away libraries and traditions which only they may impart truthfully and exactly to us.

Also, when I once asserted that Pope Innocent III himself wrote a treatise urging all Christians to cross themselves with three fingers (as the Orthodox and EC’s do to this day), I was accused of all sorts of nasty things (“Where are your sources? Who told you such a thing?”). But I only had a non-English source for this that wasn’t online. Happily, a fellow came on with an English online translation of that source. No response from the gentlemen who attacked me though . . .

The stigmata, once again, are not prized by the East, nor is there any special cult to persons who bear them ie. that emphasizes them. In the Ukrainian Catholic Church, there have been some stigmatists such as Steven Navrotsky and others.

The Blessed HieroMartyr under the soviets, Bishop Paul Gojdich, OSBM, became a stigmatist while in prison and he is sometimes portrayed with bandaged hands etc.

Also, Rome is very careful about declaring stigmatists nowadays. The great Padre St Pio of Pietrelcina, although he bore the stigmata for half a century, has never been declared a stigmatist officially by the Church. (BTW, I had the great privilege of venerating a glove ensanguined by the blood of the Holy Padre Pio last year).

Alex

I’ve read biographies of St. Seraphim of Sarov, but never heard anything about a vision of the Theotokos and the Rosary. Could you give us your source for this?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Because this person was an oddity. I’ve never heard of any Orthodox Christian having a devotion to either of then except maybe some convert from Catholicism who does so privately for their own personal reasons.

Such veneration by Orthodox would definitely be private. The Monks of New Skete in New York are former EC Franciscans and they continue to publish icon cards of St Francis and St Clare.

Also, Western-Rite Orthodox who were former Anglicans do continue to venerate privately the Anglican Saint Charles I, King and Martyr and the Orthodox “Book of Common Prayer” published by Lancelot Andrewes Press lists numerous Roman Catholic saints (st Francis is among them) in their Western Orthodox calendar with the proviso that while Western Rite Orthodox venerate such saints privately, they MAY be venerated liturgically with the approval of the local Orthodox Bishop.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Brother, I am not one who is going to intentionally try to argue about this just for the sake of it, nor act as if there is no worthwhile piety in your communion, but I will say that any attempts to claim St. Gregory as one with stigmata based upon one vague sentence is one of the most desperate attempts to pin us down on the issue. Stigmata is not a part of Orthodoxy, nor your Orthodoxy before the schism.

Dear Friend,

It is certainly not my intention to pin anyone down about anything. I did say, in agreement with you, that stigmata is not an emphasis at all in Orthodoxy (and it is all right for you to say that I’m not Orthodox because I’m Eastern Catholic - no offense would be taken).

Stigmata is, however, a religious phenomenon for whatever reason (and it could be a bad reason, which is why Rome hesitate to declare stigmatists).

If there are other ways of understanding that line in the life of Palamas, I am all ears. Again, it would not surprise me of that Holy Father, who was completely absorbed in communion with OLGS Jesus Christ by prayer in His Name, would have been “adorned with the Wounds of Christ.”

No icon would ever depict those wounds, if that is the understanding of the line. Nor would it.

Sorry if I gave offense or concern.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’ve read biographies of St. Seraphim of Sarov, but never heard anything about a vision of the Theotokos and the Rosary. Could you give us your source for this?

Yes. “Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint” has one in English. The “Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy” published in Moscow in 2003 has one in Russian together with the full outline of the Orthodox 15 mysteries of the Rule/Rosary and its place in the life of St Seraphim of Sarov.

The Encyclopedia also mentions some Russian monastic saints who made the Hail Mary their “Jesus Prayer” and said the Hail Mary hundreds of times daily.

If I find another online, I will post it here.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I like this post, because I couldn’t agree more on the more listening point; it is a recurrent theme of my posts. However, I think there should be some discernment on who we spend more time listening to. Bishop Kallistos - although certainly not beyond error - is a good choice. Now, who would you like to present as an opponent to his scholarly opinion?

Many if not most of the netodox are recent converts whose knowledge is limited, and who are far more experienced in reading about orthodoxy than in breathing it. Those who frequent vigil would know the synaxarion, the festal stichera, and so forth, and therefore have some background that makes them less doctrinaire in grasping for distinctions between East and West. Whether it is stigmata, or the sinlessness of the Theotokos, ontology, eschatology, etc., there is a phromena that develops by exposure to what the church teaches in its liturgy. This is the Tradition that nourished the East long before the printing press and literacy opened other, less well tested, avenues of spiritual development.

And it does so happen that there are many Eastern Catholics (not Roman btw - neither Alex, nor Ciero, nor I are Roman Catholic) on the net who are far more experienced in Eastern Christianity than most all Orthodox posters. You have to live with that. Alex Roman, btw, happens to be one of them; a good person with whom to practice your idea of talking less and listening more.

I thank you for your exceedingly generous compliment! But I am sorry to have given offense to our Orthodox brother.

As far as I can tell, no one here is demanding that anyone positively acknowledge St Gregory Palamas as a stigmatist. At most, it is a matter for discussion and reflection. But there is no intention toward propaganda of any sort or to try and “Latinize” St Gregory Palamas.

On the other hand, if I were an Orthodox convert like a friend of mine, I would probably jump on this right away to say that there can be no doubt but that stigmatics originated in the East and that the Latin West merely copied their experience.

I’ll be quiet now . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’ve read biographies of St. Seraphim of Sarov, but never heard anything about a vision of the Theotokos and the Rosary. Could you give us your source for this?

Here is one English language source for the St Seraphim quote re: the importance of the Rule/Rosary, fifth paragraph: (it is/could be a direct translation from the Russian Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, 2003).

therosemarytree.blogspot.com/2009/01/rule-of-the-theotokos-byzantine-rosary.html

"Another important parallel is that in both the East and the West, tradition holds that the Rosary is not merely a pious human invention, but the Queen of Heaven herself gave it through private revelation. (This does not exclude a process of organic development within the Church.)

“Saint Seraphim maintained that this rule of prayer had been given by the Mother of God to a monk in the Thebaid of Egypt in the early eighth century. He also lamented that the Orthodox had forgotten about it. He taught all his spiritual children to pray the Rule, claiming that this prayer is more important for obtaining Our Lady’s protection than any other devotion in her honor, including akathists and canons. In his cell he kept a book in which he recorded the many miracles reported to him as a result of its practice.”

Alex

 

[dcointin]

Here is one English language source for the St Seraphim quote re: the importance of the Rule/Rosary, fifth paragraph: (it is/could be a direct translation from the Russian Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy, 2003).

therosemarytree.blogspot.com/2009/01/rule-of-the-theotokos-byzantine-rosary.html

"Another important parallel is that in both the East and the West, tradition holds that the Rosary is not merely a pious human invention, but the Queen of Heaven herself gave it through private revelation. (This does not exclude a process of organic development within the Church.)

“Saint Seraphim maintained that this rule of prayer had been given by the Mother of God to a monk in the Thebaid of Egypt in the early eighth century. He also lamented that the Orthodox had forgotten about it. He taught all his spiritual children to pray the Rule, claiming that this prayer is more important for obtaining Our Lady’s protection than any other devotion in her honor, including akathists and canons. In his cell he kept a book in which he recorded the many miracles reported to him as a result of its practice.”

Alex

The link appears broken to me, does it work on your end? This is a very interesting passage, and not one that I’ve read before. I have a medallion hanging from my car’s rear view mirror of the Theotokos on one side, and St. Seraphim of Sarov on the other. I admit that I’ve never prayed the rosary, but I certainly have no objections to it. Perhaps it’s something I should incoporate into my life?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Yes, I must have typed the name in wrong or something.

You are lucky to have such a medallion! There is the Orthodox tradition of reciting the Jesus Prayer before an icon of the Mother of God, like St Seraphim did.

If you wished, you could recite 50 or more Hail Mary’s (as recommended in the book Staretz Zechariah, chapter six).

For me (and I’m NOT pushing this on you or anyone), the best way to pray this prayer is to include a word or a few after the words “the Saviour” relating to one of the mysteries.

The Orthodox mysteries are as follows:

The Nativity of the Theotokos

The Entrance into the Temple

The Annunciation

The Meeting with St Elizabeth

The Meeting with St Simeon

The flight into Egypt

The finding of Christ in the Temple

Baptism in the River Jordan

Wedding at Cana

the Theotokos under the Cross

Resurrection

Ascension

Pentecost

Dormition of the Theotokos

the Protection of the Theotokos

It is a private prayer, so anyone may say it at any time. It has brought me close to the Theotokos and to Christ. I find it exhilarating, a great way to meditate on the life of Christ and His Mother and the mysteries of salvation.

It was St Seraphim who solidified my attachment to it.

God bless you, as you are obviously a very holy soul and servant of Christ!

Alex

 

[dcointin]

Yes, I must have typed the name in wrong or something.

You are lucky to have such a medallion! There is the Orthodox tradition of reciting the Jesus Prayer before an icon of the Mother of God, like St Seraphim did.

If you wished, you could recite 50 or more Hail Mary’s (as recommended in the book Staretz Zechariah, chapter six).

For me (and I’m NOT pushing this on you or anyone), the best way to pray this prayer is to include a word or a few after the words “the Saviour” relating to one of the mysteries.

The Orthodox mysteries are as follows:

The Nativity of the Theotokos

The Entrance into the Temple

The Annunciation

The Meeting with St Elizabeth

The Meeting with St Simeon

The flight into Egypt

The finding of Christ in the Temple

Baptism in the River Jordan

Wedding at Cana

the Theotokos under the Cross

Resurrection

Ascension

Pentecost

Dormition of the Theotokos

the Protection of the Theotokos

It is a private prayer, so anyone may say it at any time. It has brought me close to the Theotokos and to Christ. I find it exhilarating, a great way to meditate on the life of Christ and His Mother and the mysteries of salvation.

It was St Seraphim who solidified my attachment to it.

God bless you, as you are obviously a very holy soul and servant of Christ!

Alex

Thank you for your kind words, I wish that were the case lol! Here’s a link to the medallion I referred to:

archangelsbooks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=NTW%2DCP018

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Ah, what a beautiful medallion!!

That is the very icon that St Seraphim of Sarov prayed before in the forest (and also before which he reposed)!!

It has the icon of St Seraphim on the back?

Then this is a representation of the medals that were distributed at Sarov to pilgrims who went there to honour the icon of the Mother of God of Tender Feeling and St Seraphim!

You are truly blessed!

Alex

 

[dcointin]

Ah, what a beautiful medallion!!

That is the very icon that St Seraphim of Sarov prayed before in the forest (and also before which he reposed)!!

It has the icon of St Seraphim on the back?

Then this is a representation of the medals that were distributed at Sarov to pilgrims who went there to honour the icon of the Mother of God of Tender Feeling and St Seraphim!

You are truly blessed!

Alex

Yes, it has the same icon on the back as you see in this link:

archangelsbooks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=NTW%2DCP006

I’ve always had a special interest in St. Seraphim, but didn’t know what the icon he venerated looked like. Do you know of any stories about him and this icon off hand? Thanks!

 

[Alexander_Roman]

St Seraphim experienced a healing with the Kursk Root miraculous icon of the Mother of God but already had the icon of Tender Feeling when he was blessed by St Dositheus of the Kyiv Caves (in reality, a woman!) to go to Sarov.

The icon has been said to be of the Baroque variety and is an Annunciation icon where the Mother of God is looking down into her heart at the moment Christ is being incarnated in her womb.

Orthodox saints, such as St Paissy Velichkovsky, taught that our Lady was the first to pray the “prayer of the heart” in this way and St Seraphim prayed the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary Rosary/Rule before this icon because it did help him to pray “in the heart.”

This was the icon he prayed before for 1,000 days and nights on a stone in the woods (that stone is basically gone for all the chips that pilgrims took from it). It was before this icon that St Seraphim had the vision of the Mother of God accompanied by saints when he heard Her say about him: “Now this one is of us” (perhaps this is not a good translation).

His spiritual daughters at Diveyevo venerate this icon highly, there is an akathist to it, as well as one, of course, to St Seraphim, and the nuns walk around their monastery three times singing or saying the 150 Hail Mary’s of the Rule. It is believed that the Mother of God herself walks around the monastery once each day . . .

There was also the special prayer rule of walking around the monastery three times and saying 150 Our Father’s and 150 Hail Mary’s for one’s relatives and friends, living and dead - after this, one was to ask for one thing that one truly needed and this was granted (but it had to be something one truly needed for one’s spiritual benefit in the first instance).

This icon was THE most popular icon under communist Russia (it still is). It belonged to the Saint who predicted the downfall of communism, after all.

May the same Mother of God and her servant, St Seraphim, bless you always!

Alex