St. Ignatius who sat of Jesus' lap Matt. 18:3-4 & Mark 9:36 - how can anyone believe that there was a Great Apostacy after the deaths of the Apostles?

[CatholicBryan]

Other things in Mormonism i have a hard time with:

  The total lack of historicity in the Book of Mormon.  the total lack of evidence for it and all the wars that happened.  (Joseph Smith was thrown in jail twice in his life)...  From the outside looking in, I would already have a hard time believing what Joseph smith said based off the evidence.  
  In addition, the Bible which came long before Mormonism says this: "But even if we or an 'angel' from heaven should preach a gospel *other than the one we preached to you*, let him be eternally condemned!"  ---
  So the Bible says that if anyone comes with a different Gospel, let him be condemned.  Mormonism has... and contradicts the Bible on many accounts.  So, I have a hard time with that.

Other contradictions between Mormonism and Catholicism …
~ The belief that the Bible has been changed or watered down (especially when the Book of Mormon calls it the fullness of the everlasting Gospel).
~ Symbolic presence of Eucharist vs. a symbol
~ The random changing of doctrines (Like blacks and polygamy and caffeine) and Continual “revelation” through “prophets.”
~ Their prophets weird teachings like: Brigham Young’s theory that God and Adam were the same person.
~ Belief in only 2 sacraments rather than the original 7 (and the belief that infant baptism is evil).
~ Their own right to choose in regards to abortion and contraception

I have spoken with MANY Mormons and they are incredibly nice people. The many of their writings i have read are anti-Catholic, and many of their sentiments are sometimes, they really are super kind and loving. I enjoy speaking with them. I just can’t get by all of their odd doctrines, especially ones dealing with God, who they believe was once a man like us and who became God. And, so we men, have the opportunity to become gods. That along with many other teachings on God, is not authentic Christian teaching.

 

[Arandur]

Other things in Mormonism i have a hard time with:

  The total lack of historicity in the Book of Mormon.  the total lack of evidence for it and all the wars that happened.  (Joseph Smith was thrown in jail twice in his life)...  From the outside looking in, I would already have a hard time believing what Joseph smith said based off the evidence.  
  In addition, the Bible which came long before Mormonism says this: "But even if we or an 'angel' from heaven should preach a gospel *other than the one we preached to you*, let him be eternally condemned!"  ---
  So the Bible says that if anyone comes with a different Gospel, let him be condemned.  Mormonism has... and contradicts the Bible on many accounts.  So, I have a hard time with that.

Other contradictions between Mormonism and Catholicism …
~ The belief that the Bible has been changed or watered down (especially when the Book of Mormon calls it the fullness of the everlasting Gospel).
~ Symbolic presence of Eucharist vs. a symbol
~ The random changing of doctrines (Like blacks and polygamy and caffeine) and Continual “revelation” through “prophets.”
~ Their prophets weird teachings like: Brigham Young’s theory that God and Adam were the same person.
~ Belief in only 2 sacraments rather than the original 7 (and the belief that infant baptism is evil).
~ Their own right to choose in regards to abortion and contraception

I have spoken with MANY Mormons and they are incredibly nice people. The many of their writings i have read are anti-Catholic, and many of their sentiments are sometimes, they really are super kind and loving. I enjoy speaking with them. I just can’t get by all of their odd doctrines, especially ones dealing with God, who they believe was once a man like us and who became God. And, so we men, have the opportunity to become gods. That along with many other teachings on God, is not authentic Christian teaching.

Oh no, please don’t derail this thread THAT much . One or two tangents are easy to follow, but half a dozen or more…

I agree with you that many Mormons are very good people, and great family people. A lot like good traditional Catholics. By keeping to close-knit communities, Mormons have maintained the kind of cultural support for their lifestyle that Catholics have mostly lost in the U.S. over the past few decades. As Peter Kreeft has said (and I think he was quoting C.S. Lewis or someone else), “A good society helps people to be good.” Keeping strong communities is an essential part of that, and something I think American Catholics are finally moving back towards. There’s definitely a spirit of revival in the Church in this country.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

1beleevr:

Ummm, good questions but wrong forum. This one is on Mormonism. But FYI, Scripture is clear that Baptism does “save you”. It’s not an Eternal security thing, but none the less the bible says Baptism “now SAVES you”. (1 Peter 3:19-21; Mk. 16:16 among others).

I would love it if we could stick to Mormonism or start a new Forum on this topic, but that’s just my 2 cents

This Forum is specifically how can anyone believe in a Great Apostacy immediately after the death of the Apostles, especially in light of all the Saints who knew Jesus Christ and were disciples of the Apostles that maintained the Christian Faith unaltered?
(Mormons or anyone else who hold that belief)

 

[CatholicBryan]

Yeah, that’s true, and that’s a big one. As you said, it’s hard to prove especially considering all the people who lived and died for Christ for the first 300 years of the church. Pretty hard to have that devout if there wasa full Apostasy.
Have you read “The Great Apostasy” By James Talmage which is supposed to be one of the best books on the subject from the Mormon perspective (if not the best). Come to think of it, he talks about the martyrs too and mentions many names (obviously enough, they are all Catholics he mentions). That definitely contridicts their own position of the apostasy taking place right after the Apostles. I myself found numerous errors in the book and was disappointed with all the contradictory and self-defeating arguments.
He talks about how the Pagans killed off all the true Christians as one of the proofs, but yet, he consistently quotes Eusebius as an authority to back himself up. As you know, Eusebius was a Catholic who was still alive after the persecutions (so not all the good Christians were killed). In addition, he recounts MANY who came out of the persecutions. In fact, Eusebius remarks on how all the churches after the persecutions were filled to overflowing with good holy, Godly people who came out of hiding or forced slavery in the underground mines. The churches went right back to praising God, the god many of them died for. Amen : )

 

[TheosisM]

Yeah, that’s true, and that’s a big one. As you said, it’s hard to prove especially considering all the people who lived and died for Christ for the first 300 years of the church. Pretty hard to have that devout if there wasa full Apostasy.
Have you read “The Great Apostasy” By James Talmage which is supposed to be one of the best books on the subject from the Mormon perspective (if not the best). Come to think of it, he talks about the martyrs too and mentions many names (obviously enough, they are all Catholics he mentions). That definitely contridicts their own position of the apostasy taking place right after the Apostles. I myself found numerous errors in the book and was disappointed with all the contradictory and self-defeating arguments.
He talks about how the Pagans killed off all the true Christians as one of the proofs, but yet, he consistently quotes Eusebius as an authority to back himself up. As you know, Eusebius was a Catholic who was still alive after the persecutions (so not all the good Christians were killed). In addition, he recounts MANY who came out of the persecutions. In fact, Eusebius remarks on how all the churches after the persecutions were filled to overflowing with good holy, Godly people who came out of hiding or forced slavery in the underground mines. The churches went right back to praising God, the god many of them died for. Amen : )

I’ve read “The Inevitable Apostasy and Promised Restoration” by Tad Callister. I would guess that Calister and Talmage both would agree that there were people that died for the faith that they believed in, even though the Great Apostasy occurred/was occurring. So, they would say that although there were many that were martyred, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the true faith and priesthood authority was still on the earth, even though many truths were still believed.

In Callister’s book, I also saw many errors, misrepresentations of traditional Christian arguments (the Trinity being the one I always focus in on, since I’m very familiar with the arguments for and against it. He presents the Trinity as modalism/unitarianism, and also did this at the last General Conference.). He also appeals to the ECFs (ante-nicene fathers specifically) to “prove” the restoration of lost doctrines. In many if not most cases, these ANF quotes are taken out of context, as are a number of Biblical verses (such as equating the Great Apostasy with a specific verse, but when we go back to the chapter, it’s talking about something else).