St. Irenaeus: A Mormon?

[Insomniac]

Today I was reading a library book about Christianity (in general), and it contains quotes from various Christians throughout history. One quote, attributed to St. Irenaeus, said: “God became man so that man might become God.” Had I not known who said that, I would have assumed it was Lorenzo Snow or some other Mormon Prophet.

Clearly Irenaeus meant something when he said this… but what, exactly?

 

[majick275]

it means we can become one with God. google “beatific vision” for a detailed description.

because of God becoming man (jesus) and all that accomplishes we can be taken in by god to his trinitarian unity to share in his unity.

mormons teach that they can become gods

 

[Publisher]

Today I was reading a library book about Christianity (in general), and it contains quotes from various Christians throughout history. One quote, attributed to St. Irenaeus, said: “God became man so that man might become God.” Had I not known who said that, I would have assumed it was Lorenzo Snow or some other Mormon Prophet.

Clearly Irenaeus meant something when he said this… but what, exactly?

The book “How Wide the Divide, Mormon and Evangelical dialog” offers some very insightful understanding to this Mormon belief with Mormon words, not someone else.

I believe the Orthodox have an understanding of “theosis”?(SP)

We are partakers of the Divine Nature…but it would be best if a Mormon or Orthodox explained their beliefs…I have enough trouble putting mine into practice without worrying about what others believe to be true.

 

[Paul_G]

Today I was reading a library book about Christianity (in general), and it contains quotes from various Christians throughout history. One quote, attributed to St. Irenaeus, said: “God became man so that man might become God.” Had I not known who said that, I would have assumed it was Lorenzo Snow or some other Mormon Prophet.

Clearly Irenaeus meant something when he said this… but what, exactly?

I have recently been reading Irenaeus; your quote sounded familiar so I looked through some chapter heading and found the citation below. It may be what was being referred to in your reading.

Irenaeus Against Hersey Book IV Chapter XXXVIII Why Man Was Not Made Perfect from the Beginning.

Paul

 

[e-catholic]

St. Irenaeus, said: “God became man so that man might become God.”
Clearly Irenaeus meant something when he said this… but what, exactly?

Not that it matters, but this was a quote from St. Athanasius.

I think this is a common quote used by the Eastern churches. The way I understand it it means. God became man so that man can become “God-like”. The Greek word Theosis is translated as God here, and sometimes when things are translated they can lose some meaning.

 

[Paul_G]

Not that it matters, but this was a quote from St. Athanasius.

I think this is a common quote used by the Eastern churches. The way I understand it it means. God became man so that man can become “God-like”. The Greek word Theosis is translated as God here, and sometimes when things are translated they can lose some meaning.

That’s interesting do you have a reference for this. I would be interested reading the whole dissertation. Thanks

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

I guess it was this part of that chapter that I remembered

…For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods…

Paul

 

[Steadfast]

The idea is called Theosis

It’s very different from the Mormon idea and has to do with partaking in God’s divinity, not becoming a little god of your own planet when you die.

 

[why_me]

It sounds very close to what the mormons actually believe. Of course, catholics will have their own interpretations of the passage but so will the mormons. At least, such wording was used by the early church. It has sort of been reinvigorated by the lds.

 

[majick275]

actually it has been consistently taught all along. the orthodox call it theosis and those of us in the “western” church call it the beatific vision. no need for interpretation as the ECFs wrote enough to make their understanding clear and the church has ensured clarity on this over time. The consistent teaching is that their is ONE God anytime, anywhere, He has always been God and while we can become one WITH him through HIS actions and HIS will this allows us to experience divinity. we enjoy all that he has but we do not become independent Gods nor do we become vassal Gods of our own kingdoms.

The LDS position is NOT related. (only in recent times have any LDS apologists even attempted to link their beliefs to ECF writings) their position is claimed to be the result of divine revelation from prophets speaking directly to God with question and answer. they teach that we are LITERAL offspring of A God who was once just like us and PROGRESSED to his current state. that we are basically embryonic deities who CAN “grow” or “develop” into Gods like him. this is all part of an endless progression/regression of infinite Gods at various levels. if we become Gods then our God becomes a god of gods and his God even higher.

BIG difference!!

for references see “beatific vision” on the catholic site of your choice and “eternal progression” on the LDS site of your choice

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Let’s let Irenaeus speak for himself,

Home > Fathers of the Church > Against Heresies (St. Irenaeus) > Book IV, Chapter 5

The author returns to his former argument, and shows that there was but one God announced by the law and prophets, whom Christ confesses as His Father, and who, through His word, one living God with Him, made Himself known to men in both covenants.

1. God, therefore, is one and the same, who rolls up the heaven as a book, and renews the face of the earth; who made the things of time for man, so that coming to maturity in them, he may produce the fruit of immortality; and who, through His kindness, also bestows [upon him] eternal things, “that in the ages to come He may show the exceeding riches of His grace;” Ephesians 2:7 who was announced by the law and the prophets, whom Christ confessed as His Father. Now He is the Creator, and He it is who is God over all, as Esaias says, "I am witness, says the Lord God, and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know, and believe, and understand that I am. Before me there was no other God, neither shall be after me. I am God, and besides me there is no Saviour. I have proclaimed, and I have saved." Isaiah 43:10, etc. And again: “I myself am the first God, and I am above things to come.” Isaiah 12:4 For neither in an ambiguous, nor arrogant, nor boastful manner, does He say these things; but since it was impossible, without God, to come to a knowledge of God, He teaches men, through His Word, to know God. To those, therefore, who are ignorant of these matters, and on this account imagine that they have discovered another Father, justly does one say, “You do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” Matthew 22:29

newadvent.org/fathers/0103405.htm

1. When, however, the Scripture terms them [gods] which are no gods, it does not, as I have already remarked, declare them as gods in every sense, but with a certain addition and signification, by which they are shown to be no gods at all. As with David: “The gods of the heathen are idols of demons;” and, “You shall not follow other gods.” For in that he says “the gods of the heathen”—but the heathen are ignorant of the true God—and calls them “other gods,” he bars their claim [to be looked upon] as gods at all. But as to what they are in their own person, he speaks concerning them; “for they are,” he says, “the idols of demons.” And Esaias: “Let them be confounded, all who blaspheme God, and carve useless things; even I am witness, says God.” Isaiah 44:9 He removes them from [the category of] gods, but he makes use of the word alone, for this [purpose], that we may know of whom he speaks. Jeremiah also says the same: “The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, let them perish from the earth which is under the heaven.” For, from the fact of his having subjoined their destruction, he shows them to be no gods at all. Elias, too, when all Israel was assembled at Mount Carmel, wishing to turn them from idolatry, says to them, “How long do you halt between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him.” 1 Kings 18:21, etc. And again, at the burnt-offering, he thus addresses the idolatrous priests: “You shall call upon the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord my God; and the Lord that will hearken by fire, He is God.” Now, from the fact of the prophet having said these words, he proves that these gods which were reputed so among those men, are no gods at all. He directed them to that God upon whom he believed, and who was truly God; whom invoking, he exclaimed, “Lord God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hear me today, and let all this people know that You are the God of Israel.” 1 Kings 18:36

newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Isaiah 43:10 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have recently been reading Irenaeus; your quote sounded familiar so I looked through some chapter heading and found the citation below. It may be what was being referred to in your reading.

Irenaeus Against Hersey Book IV Chapter XXXVIII Why Man Was Not Made Perfect from the Beginning.

Paul

Irenaeus clearly states in this chapter that God is Uncreated. Mormons do not believe this.

Also in that chapter:

“Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one nigh unto God.”

This is theosis, or the beatific vision…“seeing God”, as only one who has been made incorruptible and immortal can. Not BEING God.

 

[LaMar]

We are partakers of the Divine Nature…but it would be best if a Mormon or Orthodox explained their beliefs…I have enough trouble putting mine into practice without worrying about what others believe to be true.

You’re a good fella (or lady, whichever is the case).

Mormons of my generation grew up with the idea that we would become literal gods someday. At the same time, the God we worship now (our own Heavenly Father) would continue to progress to greater degrees of glory, ad infinitum.

This might be changing (not an expert in Mormon theology/cosmology) today, as the present generation of Mormon kids are being taught something similar to the Christian ideal of “becoming more like our heavenly father” rather than “becoming a god of one’s own planet”.

While I never took this too seriously, even as a kid, I thought it was interesting. I was sort of an astronomy buff, and I often daydreamed about what it would take to terraform a planet, and what sort of characters would inhabit it, if it were made in my image.

In any event, it’s actually an idea that’s older than both Mormonism and Christianity. Cave-bear cults in Europe and Asia had the idea that life proceeded from death (natural, given that humans had to kill animals and eat their flesh). Early humans prayed to totem animals (the alpha-male versions of whatever species they were eating) to give thanks, and to ask that the favorable characteristics of the animal-gods would be bestowed upon the eaters of the flesh of whatever they had just killed. Now we have an idealized alpha-male human being, who we pray to by proxy, and hope that some of His characteristics will be passed on to us. A natural extension for people of today, who get their meat from the supermarket and idealize human technology over animal cunning, strength and wit.

 

[e-catholic]

That’s interesting do you have a reference for this. I would be interested reading the whole dissertation. Thanks

Paul

Here is what I found with a Google Search. I am sure you can find it from this info.

God became man so that man might become a god."

(cf. St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione or On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B; also Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 460)
*

 

[jimmy]

Today I was reading a library book about Christianity (in general), and it contains quotes from various Christians throughout history. One quote, attributed to St. Irenaeus, said: “God became man so that man might become God.” Had I not known who said that, I would have assumed it was Lorenzo Snow or some other Mormon Prophet.

Clearly Irenaeus meant something when he said this… but what, exactly?

It is the doctrine of theosis as all the fathers teach. St. Athanasius said the same thing. St. Ephrem said the same thing. And the modern Maronite Catholic liturgy says the same thing in its prayer of commixture,You have united, O Lord, your divinity with our humanity
and our humanity with your divinity;
your life with our mortality
and our mortality with your life.
You have assumed what is ours,
and you have given us what is yours,
for the life and salvation of our souls.
To you, O Lord, be glory for ever.
This is the teaching of the Church. The scriptures themselves, in 2Peter1, speak of us sharing the divine nature.

 

[jimmy]

Not that it matters, but this was a quote from St. Athanasius.

I think this is a common quote used by the Eastern churches. The way I understand it it means. God became man so that man can become “God-like”. The Greek word Theosis is translated as God here, and sometimes when things are translated they can lose some meaning.

Both Irenaeus and Athanasius said the same thing along with several other fathers including Syrian fathers. Theosis basically means what it says. God takes our nature and gives us His nature(As the Maronite prayer I mentioned above says). The Latin Church has the basics of this when it speaks of God dwelling within us. But the eastern churches go further and says basically that not only will God live in us but He will give us His very nature.

 

[jimmy]

It sounds very close to what the mormons actually believe. Of course, catholics will have their own interpretations of the passage but so will the mormons. At least, such wording was used by the early church. It has sort of been reinvigorated by the lds.

The problem is that Irenaeus’ view and that of Athanasius and Ephrem and the Cappadocians can’t be confused with Mormon doctrine. The Mormons believe that God is a man and that He became God. Irenaeus, Ephrem, Athanasius, and the Cappadocians all believed that God was a spirit and their view of theosis was based on this.

 

[jimmy]

actually it has been consistently taught all along. the orthodox call it theosis and those of us in the “western” church call it the beatific vision. no need for interpretation as the ECFs wrote enough to make their understanding clear and the church has ensured clarity on this over time. The consistent teaching is that their is ONE God anytime, anywhere, He has always been God and while we can become one WITH him through HIS actions and HIS will this allows us to experience divinity. we enjoy all that he has but we do not become independent Gods nor do we become vassal Gods of our own kingdoms.

The LDS position is NOT related. (only in recent times have any LDS apologists even attempted to link their beliefs to ECF writings) their position is claimed to be the result of divine revelation from prophets speaking directly to God with question and answer. they teach that we are LITERAL offspring of A God who was once just like us and PROGRESSED to his current state. that we are basically embryonic deities who CAN “grow” or “develop” into Gods like him. this is all part of an endless progression/regression of infinite Gods at various levels. if we become Gods then our God becomes a god of gods and his God even higher.

BIG difference!!

for references see “beatific vision” on the catholic site of your choice and “eternal progression” on the LDS site of your choice

Exactly. Our nature as gods is only a matter of participating in the divine nature of God and it can not be had apart from God. It is a very part of communion with God.

 

[Paul_G]

Here is what I found with a Google Search. I am sure you can find it from this info.

**

Thanks, I will have a look for it

Paul