St. John Bosco's Vision of Hell- "Grave" sins

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Sirach2 said:
ACT OF HOPE
O my God, relying on thy infinite good and promises,
I hope to attain pardon of my sins,
the help of thy grace,
and life everlasting,
through the merits of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Redeemer. Amen
(Baltimore Catechism)
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This is what needs to be balanced, the fear of the Lord and trust in his mercy. This is why I believe that we can hope to attain heaven. However, it doesn’t mean those who purposefully turn away from God and die unrepentant will only need to spend some time in purgatory and then off to heaven they go.
 
PHILOSPHIA WROTE: “Now we’re so complacent we don’t bother with confession any more. Who needs it if they are as good as saved already?”
  • Holding a gentle view of salvation most certainly does not mean one is “complacent.” This is wrong.
PHILOSPHIA WROTE: “Like that well-worn phrase “We don’t know if there’s anybody actually in Hell”, its import has been twisted. “You won’t be damned”, is the implication. But NO ONE has the authority to say that.”
  • Neither myself nor von Balthasar here has denied the possibility of damnation. This is wrong too.
PHILOSPHIA WROTE: “The implication being put forward is a modernist one.”
  • No it’s not. Urs von Balthasar was most certainly NOT a modernist. You are wrong here too. Check out this link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=137317

PHILOSPHIA WROTE: “I will stick with traditional teachings. They have helped make many saints.”
  • And I will stick with legitimate Roman Catholic teachings, theology and doctrine. They have helped many people avoid being obsessed with sin, rigorous for nothing, and fearful about everything – ESPECIALLY since Vatican II. Each to his own, I suppose.
PHILOSPHIA WROTE : “AFAIK, there are no moves to canonise Cardinal Von Balthasar or any of the chief architects of the New Springtime.”
  • Since Roman Catholics are not required to base their lives on the Saints anyway, I fail to see how this matters at all. It is very good Roman Catholic theology to believe in the spiritual virtue of HOPE, as von Balthasar says. I see nothing controversial about that at all. If you say otherwise, you are flatly wrong.
TrueLight WROTE: “Joseph, your posts make me sad because it is obvious how you are grappling with this.”
  • But I assure you I am not grappling with this. I am merely relating something very relevant to the discussion. I find it immensely comforting that a major theologian like von Balthasar has challenged the morbid opinions – and they ARE just opinions - of many of the Saints about how “few are saved” and “almost everyone goes to Hell.” It is OTHER people here who seem to be struggling with this.
TrueLight WROTE: “Yes, it feels better to believe that everyone goes to heaven. Why would a loving God send people to hell?”
  • I never said that. And neither did von Balthasar. That would be the heresy of Universalism, and is quite wrong.
What von Balthasar actually wrote in his book “Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved?” is:

“We are allowed to hope that no human is eternally damned. This is a founded theological hope, it is not a certitude…Will it really be all men who allow themselves to be reconciled? No theology or prophecy can answer this question. But love hopes all things (I Cor. 13:7). It cannot do otherwise than to hope for the reconciliation of all men in Christ. Such unlimited hope is, from the Christian standpoint, not only permitted but commanded.”

TrueLight WROTE:** “It doesn’t mean those who purposefully turn away from God and die unrepentant will only need to spend some time in purgatory and then off to heaven they go.”**
  • I never said anything about “dying unrepentant.” Only those who repent go to Heaven. And we are all allowed to hope that perhaps all people really DO repent in their last moments. It is certainly possible. This is ABSOLUTELY good Catholic theology. The spiritual virtue of HOPE at its finest. As von Balthasar says: “Such unlimited hope is, from the Christian standpoint, not only permitted but COMMANDED." Once again, it is the other people here who seem to be having such difficulty with this. This strikes me as very sad indeed.
Sirach2 WROTE: “It would be a sin of presumption to snub our nose at God, relying on the ability to make a good confession at the end of one’s life. But it is also a sin of despair to distrust His mercy to sinners who repent.”
  • But I am not “snubbing my nose at God.” Neither is von Balthasar. Neither is anyone who believes in the Christian virtue of HOPE that “all may be saved.” We can hope, can’t we? You are wrong to imply otherwise.
Sirach2 WROTE: “Of course, it is wrong to believe that ALL are saved, just as it is wrong to believe that ALL are damned.”
  • But yet again, I have never said I BELIEVE that all are saved. That would be the heresy of Universalism, which is most certainly wrong. von Balthasar merely expresses the HOPE that all may be saved; that is, that all might perhaps repent of their sins in their last moments. This is what absolutely everyone on this forum seems to be missing. von Balthasar says: "We are allowed to hope that no human is eternally damned. This is a founded theological hope, it is not a certitude.” What, exactly, is the problem with hoping? There is no sin in believing this at all.
    **
    (CONTINUED BELOW)**
 
(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)

The more I see of Catholic Answers, the more I am saddened by the type of responses here. I do, however, understand the fear that can arise from embracing a gentler view of God and of salvation – especially if one has been taught a very harsh understanding of God and sin. Perhaps not everybody can accept von Balthasar’s view. He isn’t big on needless guilt. This can be very difficult for people burdened with such things to accept. There is a temptation to believe that unless the answer to salvation is very harsh and demanding, then it must be wrong. People who see God as very rigid and demanding often have great difficulty detaching themselves from such a view. And anyone (such as von Balthasar) who does not preach a theology with a very low tolerance for imperfection and an exaggerated sense of sin will often seem too “nice.” Not “orthodox” enough. Not “perfect” enough. And thus seemingly wrong.

Nevertheless, for those who wish for a more peaceful understanding of God’s grace, von Balthasar’s view is perfectly viable within the boundaries of Roman Catholic theology. It would simply be wrong to say otherwise.

Again, von Balthasar’s book on Hell can be seen here:

amazon.com/Dare-Hope-Save…/dp/0898702070

And the FULL TEXT of the book can be read online here:

books.google.ca/books/about/D…d=7ZfpLWkTtOgC
 
Peace, Joseph Kemp. 🙂

Please understand that when I joined this discussion, I did direct my thoughts to you in direct response to anything you may have written previously in this thread. It seems as though you believe I did address your posts, yet my sharing had nothing to do with the views expressed by you or your theologian. I was merely voicing the truths with which I am familiar, i.e., supernatural hope, trust in God’s mercy, and avoiding the extremes of presumption and despair. These are Catholic foundational teachings.
 
Interesting. I don’t really understand what would be so controversial about any of this.
 
Speaking of St. John Bosco, EWTN is showing the story of his life tonight at 8:00 PM EST. It will be shown in two, or maybe three parts, I forget, but I highly recommend this very inspirational true story of the Saint who brought many wayward boys to Our Lord. The ending is particularly moving, and I choke up each time I see it. 👍
 
Sirach2 said:
Speaking of St. John Bosco, EWTN is showing the story of his life tonight at 8:00 PM EST. It will be shown in two, or maybe three parts, I forget, but I highly recommend this very inspirational true story of the Saint who brought many wayward boys to Our Lord. The ending is particularly moving, and I choke up each time I see it. 👍
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Okay. I hardly watch TV but I will make an exception!
 
You won’t regret it - the entire movie is exceptional with a lot of heartwarming scenes that lift one to God. St. Dominic Savio, the teenage saint, was formed by St. John. And his confessor, the priest who helped him with his work with the Oratory is also a saint, Joseph Cafasso.

Edit: The series will continue again next Saturday, same time.
 
Sirach2 said:
Speaking of St. John Bosco, EWTN is showing the story of his life tonight at 8:00 PM EST. It will be shown in two, or maybe three parts, I forget, but I highly recommend this very inspirational true story of the Saint who brought many wayward boys to Our Lord. The ending is particularly moving, and I choke up each time I see it. 👍
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Is this part I? I turned to it 5 minutes late and I feel like I came right in the middle of it.

Edit: okay I see now they went back in time.
 
Was this originally in Italian? The voice overs are horrible, LOL.
 
Interesting, in the movie when we see St Bosco giving communion, the voice over says “the body of Christ”. Is that what they would have said in the 1840’s?
 
The first part of the movie was good! Please remind me to watch part 2 next week. 😃
 
I’m so glad you enjoyed Part 1 - it is just as good in the other parts, and I’m tempted to tell how his relationship with that Prefect ended, but that would spoil it for you.
Many of our saints had great sufferings and opposition as they tried to do God’s work, as you have already seen in the film.

Next week, you’ll see the appearance of St. Dominic Savio. Touching story, indeed!

St. John Bosco’s feast day is January 31st, so every year EWTN shows his life to coincide with it. I’m sorry to say I missed EWTN’s annual showing of St. Andre Bessette, the priest of St. Joseph’s Oratory in Canada, known for his healings and holiness. His feast is January 6th.
 
Sirach2 said:
I’m so glad you enjoyed Part 1 - it is just as good in the other parts, and I’m tempted to tell how his relationship with that Prefect ended, but that would spoil it for you. .
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I think you already did. 😦
 
Nah, I didn’t even give a clue. What do you believe happened with the Prefect?

Incidentally, now that you have seen the movie, do you see any possible way that St. John drew these young street delinquents to the Lord by scaring the beejeebies out of them, telling them they will burn in hell? If that was truly a vision he had, it was certainly NOT the way he loved those boys, nor the method he used to draw them to Christ. It simply doesn’t work.
 
The problem nowadays is not that Hell is mentioned to children; it’s that it’s not mentioned at all.

One would think that in the 1960’s a saint or Pope had a revelation that, even after two World Wars and the popularisation of fornication in the West, Jesus had closed the gates of Hell. Like the story of the revelation that caused the Prayer To St. Michael to be added to the Mass, but in reverse.

My opinion is that an intellectual movement is passing though the Church. It has no foundation in doctrine, so its value is thus known, but its very alluring.
 
Balance is everything! The message of St. Leonard is the most discouraging homily I have ever had the misfortune to read. Anyone who is having difficulty overcoming sinful habits (and that would be all of us) could easily despair, saying to oneself, “Well if THAT’S ALL who are saved, obviously I’m not one of them, so I may as well continue to sin.”

I could never understand either, how the Jehovah Witnesses could possibly find hope in their literal translation of Revelations, where they believe only 144,000 will be saved. O God help us! Yes, believe in the reality of hell and the dangers incombent upon us, but as the Act of Hope beseeches God, “…with the help of thy grace!” We cannot do it alone, but rely upon the infinite merits and help of Jesus, Our Savior, to accomplish our salvation, while we cooperate the best we can with that life-saving grace.
 
Sirach2 said:
Balance is everything! The message of St. Leonard is the most discouraging homily I have ever had the misfortune to read. Anyone who is having difficulty overcoming sinful habits (and that would be all of us) could easily despair, saying to oneself, “Well if THAT’S ALL who are saved, obviously I’m not one of them, so I may as well continue to sin.”

I could never understand either, how the Jehovah Witnesses could possibly find hope in their literal translation of Revelations, where they believe only 144,000 will be saved. O God help us! Yes, believe in the reality of hell and the dangers incombent upon us, but as the Act of Hope beseeches God, “…with the help of thy grace!” We cannot do it alone, but rely upon the infinite merits and help of Jesus, Our Savior, to accomplish our salvation, while we cooperate the best we can with that life-saving grace.
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Actually the JWs believe only 144,000 elect will be in heaven but the rest of the faithful JWs will live on a peaceful earthly paradise where the lion will lay down with the lamb. Not defending them in any way. Just sayin’. We as Catholics hate it when non-Catholics misrepresent the faith so we need to be accurate too.
 
. . . but the rest of the faithful JWs will live on a peaceful earthly paradise where the lion will lay down with the lamb.
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Thank you, Ora - while that may be their belief, which I did not know, it still offers very little hope. Who would want to live forever on this earth, albeit in happiness, without the beatific vision of God and happiness in His presence for all eternity?
 
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