St. John of the Cross and Emptying the Mind

[Juliet512]

Thank you for this thread, Michael Mayo, and thank you for all who have contributed and added to it.

I was raised in the Catholic Church but, I left it when my mother left it, after divorcing my father, when I was in my teens. I have recently returned to the Church and I am now in my 40s.

Even though I left the Church, I feel that I never completely left God. During my almost 30 years of absence, I explored other spiritual practices from other religions, including Buddhism.

But, God has led me back to his Church and I am seeing and experiencing it through fresh eyes and new skin. It’s exciting!

I’m delighted to learn that some of the techniques for knowing God and communicating with God that I learned from other religions were also taught and practiced by Catholic Saints.

I’ve always been drawn to St. Therese and, reading some of what has been shared here, has made me all the more interested in her. I’m looking forward to reading more of Saint John of the Cross, Fransisco de Osuna, and St. Therese as it relates the practice of contemplative prayer.

There is one book I have read that covers many of the topics brought up here. It’s by Micheal Singer and it’s titled The Untethered Soul. Michael Singer writes that his book is not for any particular audience, and for every audience. He states that it is not “un-Christian” and I am inclined to agree. Having read a great many books on the subject, I did find that his book synthesizes and presents many of these concepts in a way that I was able to more holistically integrate and understand.

That said, although learning and practicing these concepts brought me a greater inner peace and many divine insights, I know now that I was speaking with God but not calling him by his own name. If that makes any sense? And, I realize now that a truly intimate relationship with God can only happen when we call him by his name and recognize him for who he truly is.

Having recently re-adopted my Catholic faith and traditions, my heart has been rekindled with a new fire and passion for Christ. I’m grateful to have found this forum for helpful insights and support.

PS. I’m editing to add/ask if anyone else has had luck praying to Mary the Undoer of Knots in this process of reaching contemplative prayer? From 2006-2008, I went through a Dark Night of the Soul in which I lost a great many things, including my business, my home, a relationship, and many other things. Then, in the midst of all that loss, I committed a sin which brought into my life my daughter, who is now 7 years old. Although many counseled me to abort her or give her up for adoption and, although my own heart did not know HOW I would support this child, being single and jobless, I could not do it. I had faith that I would not always be jobless and that I had been given a gift, despite my sin. During this time I prayed continually that God would honor my faith and help me get through it all. And, he did.

 

[soma]

Ignore the criticisms and judgments of the mind and listen to the Divinity within. The mind is asking the questions, and it is the soul that answers them. “Be still, and know that I am God.” (Psalm 46:10) We are in and a part of the infinite, but somehow we do the most difficult thing, which is to separate ourselves from infinity. The spirit is always there we just need to remove the obstructions that keep us from it. Jung called the harmonizing, the awareness of our unity with the infinite synchronicity. “Synchronicity is an ever present reality for those who have eyes to see.” (Carl Jung) God is in the present moment, but if you try to grasp or control this instant it is not there. The past, the present and the future are in the here and now along with God, they are not in the future. The problem is we are living in our mind in either in the past or the future while eternity is now. Christian Mysticism communicates to us that we can’t contain or restrict the present moment because it is infinity. There is a way to slow down, know and experience the harmony, synchronicity, peace and a manner to just be in the present moment. God is always in the present moment, we are the ones that are sporadic, sometimes here and sometimes there. Infinity is an ocean of pure consciousness while the soul is a wave. The mind is in the space time continuum so it can be a prison if we let it constrict our identity. The mind is not in the brain or the body, and we are not in the body or the mind. The mind, brain and body are within us. We just need to start identifying with the soul or wave that is connected to the ocean of pure consciousness.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The book that continues to grow on me the more times I read it is The Imitation of Christ. leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html It’s not written in a style like those of Saint John of the Cross or Saint Theresa of Avila, but like Saint Therese, I find what it says to lay a solid foundation for the contemplative life. Every paragraph, it seems, is worth much discursive meditation that can cause a person to grow to new heights in terms of their contemplative life.

The more I practice contemplation and centering prayer, the more I realize that one’s spiritual foundation must be built on solid rock which the IOC fosters. The deeper I delve, the more I also realize that contemplation is largely a grace from God. Every night I try to reflect on my day and confess my failings in loving God with all my mind and strength.

LOVE!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Dave

Thanks . Dave I will print it out and reflect on it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The problem I see in all of this is, moving toward interior prayer isn’t as complicated as it seems.

The enormous amount of writings by like St John of the Cross and St Teresa, scares people away from it.

Contemplative prayer is simple and it’s in the simplicity that makes it so holy.

Jim

I just now saw your post and I wanted to link it to my above post. Contemplative Prayer is indeed simple, but it’s laying the strong religious foundation – being righteous in God’s eyes – that’s difficult. That’s why I’m laying aside all contemplative and other spiritual books and focusing on building the foundation based on The Imitation of Christ. I believe this was why Saint Therese of Lisieux did the same.

LOVE!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Robert Sock

but it’s laying the strong religious foundation – being righteous in God’s eyes – that’s difficult. That’s why I’m laying aside all contemplative and other spiritual books and focusing on building the foundation based on The Imitation of Christ. I believe this was why Saint Therese of Lisieux did the same.

You should not lay aside contemplative practice, because on your own you can not become righteous in the eyes of God.

It is through the transforming grace God gives is in Contemplative Prayer which moves us toward righteousness and holiness.

It is being in the presence of God dwelling within, and experiencing his divine love which transforms us.

As St John of the Cross wrote, a lover will take on the characteristics of his beloved. So it is with our relationship with Jesus Christ. We will take on His characteristics, which is love and that love will be seen in all things.

If you wait to become righteous before beginning contemplative prayer, you’ll never begin. Righteousness will be according to your own ideas, not God’s,

Jim

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert Sock

You should not lay aside contemplative practice, because on your own you can not become righteous in the eyes of God.

It is through the transforming grace God gives is in Contemplative Prayer which moves us toward righteousness and holiness.

It is being in the presence of God dwelling within, and experiencing his divine love which transforms us.

As St John of the Cross wrote, a lover will take on the characteristics of his beloved. So it is with our relationship with Jesus Christ. We will take on His characteristics, which is love and that love will be seen in all things.

If you wait to become righteous before beginning contemplative prayer, you’ll never begin. Righteousness will be according to your own ideas, not God’s,

Jim

I think the point you’re trying to get at is that the foundation will be built based on our being united to God, as opposed to our needing some degree of “righteousness” as a prerequisite to our becoming united. That may very well be correct, who really knows, but Christ sure did emphasize the foundation in the Gospels.

LOVE!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thus, at some point during prayer the individual might begin to feel the inner call to contemplation. The soul no longer feels any desire to ponder on the Lord, His mysteries and so on. He feels drawn to let it go … to simply “be” Dave

Thanks again for that Background on Osuna for Teresa and John.

Could it be than many do not have that inner call to contemplation, to simply be, and thus fear it as “mental void”?

 

[DBT]

Could it be than many do not have that inner call to contemplation, to simply be, and thus fear it as “mental void”?

All are called … few have the desire for it … fewer still know how to respond to His call.

Fear is a big part of it. St. John of the Cross speaks specifically of fear of “idleness” — thinking it is better to “do” than to “be.” It is fear of the unknown … silence in particular. And part of that is perhaps the “void” issues you mention. Part of it is fear of embracing something new (contemplation) when we’ve grown so accustomed to old ways (meditation) that must now be given up.

Riding ourselves of these fears is what the first dark night is all about … the passive night of sense. The posts earlier in this thread about the “3 signs” speak directly to that. Long story short, when we feel drawn to lay down our rosary to simply “be” with Him – the “I look at Him and He looks at me” we so often hear about – then we should do precisely that.

To continue working our intellect at such times is the worst thing we can do. Resisting His grace through repeated attempts at meditation is how we snuff out His still, soft voice. A big no-no in St. John’s teaching. If we remain open and receptive, we’ll “feel” this call … and “hear” His voice. Our best response: go with the flow. Literally.

In a word: intuition.

And, unfortunately, people are fearful of that too.

Dave

 

[Michael_Mayo]

All are called … few have the desire for it … fewer still know how to respond to His call.

Fear is a big part of it. St. John of the Cross speaks specifically of fear of “idleness” — thinking it is better to “do” than to “be.” It is fear of the unknown … silence in particular. And part of that is perhaps the “void” issues you mention. Part of it is fear of embracing something new (contemplation) when we’ve grown so accustomed to old ways (meditation) that must now be given up.

Riding ourselves of these fears is what the first dark night is all about … the passive night of sense. The posts earlier in this thread about the “3 signs” speak directly to that. Long story short, when we feel drawn to lay down our rosary to simply “be” with Him – the “I look at Him and He looks at me” we so often hear about – then we should do precisely that.

To continue working our intellect at such times is the worst thing we can do. Resisting His grace through repeated attempts at meditation is how we snuff out His still, soft voice. A big no-no in St. John’s teaching. If we remain open and receptive, we’ll “feel” this call … and “hear” His voice.

It’s pure intuition.

And, unfortunately, people are fearful of that too.

Dave

“Individuals should be very free and annihilated regarding all things, because any thought or discursive reflection or satisfaction on which they may want to lean would impede and disquiet them and make noise in the profound silence of their senses and their spirit, which they possess for the sake of this deep and delicate listening.”

“Deep and delicate listening” and that also is something we can practice every waking moment.

 

[therese14]

I think it doesn’t mean emptying the mind, but refraining/abstaining from mortal sin. It is a good book.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think it doesn’t mean emptying the mind, but refraining/abstaining from mortal sin. It is a good book.

It doesn’t meant refraining or abstaining from mortal sin per se, but that should be avoided.

In prayer, emptying the mind means letting go of erroneous thoughts which only serve to draw us away from prayer…

In daily life, it’s the awareness of thoughts which come into our consciousness, that have no value and letting them go.

It means living mindfully, in the present moment, which is the only thing that exists.

Jim

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I think it doesn’t mean emptying the mind, but refraining/abstaining from mortal sin. It is a good book.

Abstaining from mortal sin is a given. It does indeed mean emptying the mind. But even spritual directors may not appreciate this .

Stanza 3

1. Neither should there be any fear because the memory is void of forms and figures. Since God is
   formless and figureless, the memory walks safely when empty of form and figure, and it draws closer to God.
   The more it leans on the imagination, the farther away it moves from God and the more serious is its danger;
   for in being what he is - unimaginable - God cannot be grasped by the imagination.
2. These spiritual masters, not understanding souls that tread the path of quiet and solitary
   contemplation, since they themselves have not reached it and do not know what it is to part with discursive
   meditation, think these souls are idle. They hinder them and hamper the peace of restful and quiet
   contemplation that God of his own was according them, by making them walk along the path of meditation and
   imaginative reflection, and perform interior acts. In doing this, these souls find great repugnance, dryness, and
   distraction; they want to remain in their holy idleness and quiet and peaceful recollection.

saintsworks.net/books/St.%20John%20of%20the%20Cross%20-%20The%20Living%20Flame%20of%20Love.pdf

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I get the feeling that ST John is frustrated and angered by spiritual directors who do not get it.

Stanza 3
54. These directors do not know what spirit is. They do a great injury to God and show disrespect toward
him by intruding with a rough hand where he is working. It cost God a great deal to bring these souls to this
stage, and he highly values his work of having introduced them into this solitude and emptiness regarding their
faculties and activity so that he might speak to their hearts, which is what he always desires. Since it is he who
now reigns in the soul with an abundance of peace and calm, he takes the initiative himself by making the
natural acts of the faculties fail, by which the soul laboring the whole night accomplished nothing [Lk. 5:5]; and
he feeds the spirit without the activity of the senses because neither the sense nor its function is capable of
spirit.

 

[DBT]

I get the feeling that ST John is frustrated and angered by spiritual directors who do not get it.

You got it!

And how often we see his concerns played out on these very forums. If more people were familiar with the passages you’re reading from Living Flame, perhaps they’d think twice about saying some of the things they do on contemplative related threads.

On a related note, much of St. John’s anger may be traced to the treatment of St. Teresa at the hands of these “learned men” - book smart theologians who never spent a day in prayer in their lives. Yet it was their duty to counsel her in all matters contemplative. Obeying - and overcoming - their bad advice was a principal aspect of her own Dark Night.

Dave

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You got it!

And how often we see his concerns played out on these very forums. If more people were familiar with the passages you’re reading from Living Flame, perhaps they’d think twice about saying some of the things they do on contemplative related threads.

On a related note, much of St. John’s anger may be traced to the treatment of St. Teresa at the hands of these “learned men” - book smart theologians who never spent a day in prayer in their lives. Yet it was their duty to counsel her in all matters contemplative. Obeying - and overcoming - their bad advice was a principal aspect of her own Dark Night.

Dave

Please be warned in all charity that if you make any attempt at putting aside Active Catholic Formulae to empty your mind, it opens a portal to the Dark Side and the Dark Side is obviously a place we are afraid of because we are supposed to Fear All Things Greatly. Especially the “Dark” because we know our lights only work when executing Properly Scripted Movements and best when there is a lot of noise. kpeople:

You will wonder whether you even exist and fall into despair. Your will act in bizarre ways that will earn you a trip to a psycho ward or an exorcist, depending on who finds you first. Almost certainly, you will become too depressed to post photos of kittens, babies, or dinner on Facebook. You will develop strange urges to sit in lotus position and chant incessantly. Moreover, if you even attempt this one time, you will become a New Age Buddhist and God will hate you and everyone who failed to stop you from doing it.



O gosh I amuse myself sometimes …

Sorry … trying to restore my “seriousness” mode now … :egyptian:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Well I do use a Zafu cushion but don’t worry. Instead of sitting on it, I use to support my back.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Well I do use a Zafu cushion but don’t worry. Instead of sitting on it, I use to support my back.

Well, ok. But you might want to keep a bottle of holy water nearby when you use it, “just in case.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You got it!

And how often we see his concerns played out on these very forums. If more people were familiar with the passages you’re reading from Living Flame, perhaps they’d think twice about saying some of the things they do on contemplative related threads.

On a related note, much of St. John’s anger may be traced to the treatment of St. Teresa at the hands of these “learned men” - book smart theologians who never spent a day in prayer in their lives. Yet it was their duty to counsel her in all matters contemplative. Obeying - and overcoming - their bad advice was a principal aspect of her own Dark Night.

Dave

Keep in mind that St John himself was persecuted, in fact he was imprisoned by his on order for hist teachings.

His frustration was not only over the treatment of St Teresa, but of his own order’s treatment of him.

Also, St Teresa had to appear before the Spanish Inquisition, which she feared. Her grandmother was Jewish and feared the Inquisition very much.

Thankfully, one of the priests she had converted to her way of prayer, served on the court she appeared before and she was of course not charged with anything.

Jim

 

[DBT]

Keep in mind that St John himself was persecuted, in fact he was imprisoned by his on order for hist teachings.

His frustration was not only over the treatment of St Teresa, but of his own order’s treatment of him.

Also, St Teresa had to appear before the Spanish Inquisition, which she feared. Her grandmother was Jewish and feared the Inquisition very much.

Thankfully, one of the priests she had converted to her way of prayer, served on the court she appeared before and she was of course not charged with anything.

Jim

Good points!

I was reserving my comments, though, to the more narrow subject of poor spiritual directors … the topic of much of stanza 3 of Living Flame that Michael quoted. These directors, through their fear and ignorance of contemplative matters, did great harm to their directees … not the least of whom was St. Teresa herself. It seems St. Teresa had the same problem many people today still have … finding a director/confessor with actual contemplative experience. That wasn’t always the case with her, of course, as the Lord did bring her some true gems to offset the knuckleheads … including St. Peter Alcantara and St. John of the Cross himself.

Sometimes her advisers knew what they were talking about … other times they didn’t have a clue. Nevertheless, she always obeyed and esteemed the “learned men.”

Dave