St. John of the Cross and Emptying the Mind

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DBT said:
Good points!

I was reserving my comments, though, to the more narrow subject of poor spiritual directors … the topic of much of stanza 3 of Living Flame that Michael quoted. These directors, through their fear and ignorance of contemplative matters, did great harm to their directees … not the least of whom was St. Teresa herself. It seems St. Teresa had the same problem many people today still have … finding a director/confessor with actual contemplative experience. That wasn’t always the case with her, of course, as the Lord did bring her some true gems to offset the knuckleheads … including St. Peter Alcantara and St. John of the Cross himself.

Sometimes her advisers knew what they were talking about … other times they didn’t have a clue. Nevertheless, she always obeyed and esteemed the “learned men.”

Dave 🙂
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We actually have it a lot better than St Teresa and St John had.

During their day, all the great spiritual works were banned by the Episcopal leadership of Spain.

Classical Latin was the only language the Bible was allowed to be translated in.

St Teresa, not knowing classical Latin, could not read the Bible.

What she and St John gave us came from their own experiences in contemplation.

Today, we have many great works by experts in contemplative prayer. We have many good teachers, where they had none.

Today, finding a good confessor isn’t as difficult as it was for St Teresa, and not dangerous in trying to find one as it was for her.

I think we’re blessed in having not only access to the works of spiritual masters, but encouragement from our Church leaders.

Jim
 
More from From* Living Flame of Love* in two translations. We actually get in God’s way when we cling to the meditations that helped us when we were beginners.

Stanza 3
65. Oh, then, souls, when God is according you such sovereign favors as to lead you by the state of
solitude and recollection, withdrawing you from the labors of the senses, do not revert to the senses. Abandon
your activity, for if this helped you to deny the world and yourselves when you were beginners, it is a serious
obstacle now that God favors you by being himself the agent. God will feed you with heavenly refreshment
since you do not apply your faculties to anything, or encumber them, but detach them from everything, which is
all you yourself have to do (besides the simple loving attentiveness in the way I mentioned above, that is,
when you feel no aversion toward it). You should not use any force except to detach your soul and liberate it,
so as not to alter its peace and tranquility.

Translation by: Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, Rev. Ed.

saintsworks.net/books/St.%20John%20of%20the%20Cross%20-%20The%20Living%20Flame%20of%20Love.pdf
  1. O souls, now that God shows you mercies so great, leading you into solitude and recollection,with drawing you from the labours of sense, do not return thereto. If your own exertions were once profitable, enabling you to deny the world and your own selves when you were but beginners,cease from them now when God of His mercy has begun to work in you, for now they will only embarrass you. If you will be careful to lay no stress on your own operations,withdrawing them from all things,and involving them in nothing," which is your duty in your present state " and wait lovingly and sincerely upon God at the same time " doing no violence to yourselvesexcept to detach your
    selves wholly,so as not to disturb your tranquillity and peace " God Himself will feed you with the heavenly food, since you cease to hinder Him.
TRANSLATED BY
DAVID LEWISat
www.forgottenbooks.com
 
St. Teresa says this expressly: “I have known people of a very high degree of spirituality who have reached this state, and whom, notwithstanding, the devil with great subtlety and craft, has won back to himself” (Interior Castle, V, 4). “How many are called by the Lord to the apostleship, as Judas was, and enjoy communion with Him … and afterwards, through their own fault, are lost!” (ibid., 3). Spontaneously one recalls the cry full of humility and distrust of self that burst forth from the heart of St. Paul, the Apostle who had been rapt to the third heaven: “Lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor 9:27). As long as we are on earth, we have reason to fear; we always have, alas, the sad possibility of not corresponding with grace, of separating ourselves, even in small things, from the will of God—and herein lies our ruin—thus, little by little we fall back. “Christian souls whom the Lord has brought to this point on your journey,” exclaims St. Teresa of Jesus, “I beseech you, for His sake, not to be negligent, but to withdraw from occasions of sin”; and she adds, “For this purpose [the downfall of an apostle] the devil will marshall all the powers of hell, for as I have often said, if he wins a single soul in this way, he will win a whole multitude” (Interior Castle, V, 4). On the contrary, if the apostle remains faithful to the grace of the apostolate, he will not only be an instrument for the salvation of many, but his own interior life will be deeply enriched.

Read more: spiritualdirection.com/2014/11/06/apostolic-maturity#ixzz3IIovhH7D

Peace
 
hazcompat said:
St. Teresa says this expressly: “I have known people of a very high degree of spirituality who have reached this state, and whom, notwithstanding, the devil with great subtlety and craft, has won back to himself” (Interior Castle, V, 4). “How many are called by the Lord to the apostleship, as Judas was, and enjoy communion with Him … and afterwards, through their own fault, are lost!” (ibid., 3). Spontaneously one recalls the cry full of humility and distrust of self that burst forth from the heart of St. Paul, the Apostle who had been rapt to the third heaven: “Lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor 9:27). As long as we are on earth, we have reason to fear; we always have, alas, the sad possibility of not corresponding with grace, of separating ourselves, even in small things, from the will of God—and herein lies our ruin—thus, little by little we fall back. “Christian souls whom the Lord has brought to this point on your journey,” exclaims St. Teresa of Jesus, “I beseech you, for His sake, not to be negligent, but to withdraw from occasions of sin”; and she adds, “For this purpose [the downfall of an apostle] the devil will marshall all the powers of hell, for as I have often said, if he wins a single soul in this way, he will win a whole multitude” (Interior Castle, V, 4). On the contrary, if the apostle remains faithful to the grace of the apostolate, he will not only be an instrument for the salvation of many, but his own interior life will be deeply enriched.

Read more: spiritualdirection.com/2014/11/06/apostolic-maturity#ixzz3IIovhH7D

Peace
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I keep coming back to The Imitation of Christ, which says something similar:

THE DISCIPLE. Lord, Your judgements thunder against me. My limbs tremble and shake with fear, and my soul is horribly afraid. I stand awestruck, considering how the very heavens are not pure in Your sight. And if You found wickedness even among the Angels,’ and did not spare them, what can be my fate? The very stars fall from Heaven; what then can I presume, who am but dust? Men whose deeds seemed praiseworthy have fallen into the pit, and I have seen those who had been fed with the Bread of Angels delighted with pigs’ food.
-Book 3, Chapter 14

This happened to me, so I know the power of Satan and our constant need for God’s grace. The experience really opened my eyes as to my powerlessness.

LOVE! ❤️
 
Here is an interesting point to meditate from

Stanza 4
  1. Even this comparison is most inadequate; for in this awakening they [all material things] not only seem to move, but they all
    likewise disclose the beauties of their being, power, loveliness, and graces, and the root of their duration and
    life. For the soul is conscious of how all creatures, earthly and heavenly, have their life, duration, and strength
    in him, and it clearly realizes what he says in the Book of Proverbs: By me kings reign and princes rule and the
    mighty exercise justice and understand it [Prv. 8:15-16]. Although it is indeed aware that these things are
    distinct from God, insofar as they have created being, nonetheless what it understands of God, by his being all
    these things with infinite eminence    , is such that it knows these things better in God’s being than in themselves.
    And here lies the remarkable delight of this awakening: The soul knows creatures through God and not
    God through creatures. This amounts to knowing the effects through their cause and not the cause through its
    effects. The latter is knowledge a posteriori, and the former is essential knowledge.
The mystery of God’s presence in all things even as they remain distinct from God.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Here is an interesting point to meditate from

Stanza 4
  1. Even this comparison is most inadequate; for in this awakening they [all material things] not only seem to move, but they all
    likewise disclose the beauties of their being, power, loveliness, and graces, and the root of their duration and
    life. For the soul is conscious of how all creatures, earthly and heavenly, have their life, duration, and strength
    in him, and it clearly realizes what he says in the Book of Proverbs: By me kings reign and princes rule and the
    mighty exercise justice and understand it [Prv. 8:15-16]. Although it is indeed aware that these things are
    distinct from God, insofar as they have created being, nonetheless what it understands of God, by his being all
    these things with infinite eminence    , is such that it knows these things better in God’s being than in themselves.
    And here lies the remarkable delight of this awakening: The soul knows creatures through God and not
    God through creatures. This amounts to knowing the effects through their cause and not the cause through its
    effects. The latter is knowledge a posteriori, and the former is essential knowledge.
The mystery of God’s presence in all things even as they remain distinct from God.
Click to expand...
It sounds as though St John of the Cross was greatly blessed. I emphasize “greatly blessed” because it is commonly believed that infused contemplation is a gift from God.

I have not read that much of Saint John, but his writings seem to underplay the need for a sound spiritual foundation for a contemplative life. I read that he seriously considered becoming a Carthusian monk, which leads me to believe that he was well aware of the need for self mortification. (I wonder whether he would have written anything if he was a Carthusian, as they so heavily isolated.) Given what you have studied, what is your overall opinion of Saint John of the Cross having neglected an emphasis on the need of a solid foundation for a contemplative life, especially the total annihilation of self and one’s ability to know and do God’s will in all things?

LOVE! ❤️
 
The soul knows creatures through God and not
God through creatures.
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Isn’t this true, but also the inverse of what we hear today from so many people, in that they know God through nature.

St John is saying, it is through God that we know nature, and the true purpose of nature.

Nature, indeed the world around us, are God’s creation, a gift to us. However, they are not God, but outside of God, and we should never place more importance in the gift than the Gift Giver.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Who are they you are referring to ?

Jim
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Those who do not yet " know these things better in God’s being than in themselves.
whomever hasn’t the grace and " remarkable delight of this awakening:" Those souls who do not know creatures through God but God through creatures.

Peace
 
“The range of what we think and do is limited by what we fail to notice. And because we fail to notice that we fail to notice, there is little we can do to change; until we notice how failing to notice shapes our thoughts and deeds.”
― R.D. Laing

This was written by a deceased psychiatrist. Although I do not like worldly science and theories, I do think research psychiatrists and psychologists make some great observations. This is one such observation that I think Saint John of the Cross would agree with wholeheartedly. It’s deep.

LOVE! ❤️
 
Robert_Sock said:
Given what you have studied, what is your overall opinion of Saint John of the Cross having neglected an emphasis on the need of a solid foundation for a contemplative life, especially the total annihilation of self and one’s ability to know and do God’s will in all things?

LOVE! ❤️
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I think he presumes a solid foundation and that contemplative life is a natural outcome. The problem then and now is that because the contemplative life is quite different than the habits of an active life the contemplative life has been viewed as something for the spiritual elite rather than our common heritage.

The verbal prayers and devotions that help build the foundation are sometimes viewed as the “safe” spirituality even though they can become rote and even occasion of scrupulosity. Self surrender should permeate both the active and contemplative life. So should charity, kindness, service and all the virtues. It seems to me that St. John’s main point is “Let us rest our minds in God’s silence without reproach when we feel the call.” And that is why I started this thread. There is such great misunderstanding and fear regarding “emptying the mind”. We are more than mind. We are spirit. But befor we can know ourselves as spirit in God’s spirit we must transcend the mind, transcend the self.

Of course even John did not completely stop reading scripture, praying the Psalms or making up his own verbal prayers. All that continues to strengthen the foundation. That is why balance of active and contemplative is so important. for us…balance of verbal and nonverbal prayer.
 
Saint John was also very active. Described as joyous and grieved by the sadness of others. He traveled extensively throughout Spain and was involved in spiritual and governmental matters of the Carmelite Order. Still He was a mystic.

Peace
 
hazcompat said:
Saint John was also very active. Described as joyous and grieved by the sadness of others. He traveled extensively throughout Spain and was involved in spiritual and governmental matters of the Carmelite Order. Still He was a mystic.

Peace
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Can anyone say where there is a relationship between the dark night of the soul and contemplation.

Does one exclude the other? Or is one a necessary part of the other. Or may one have contemplation without going thru a spiritual journey that St John of the Cross talks about? Or is contemplation necessary to any part of the spiritual journey?

I guess I’m asking, who is a candidate for contemplation…anyone, or there certain spiritual qualities required?
 
fred_conty said:
Can anyone say where there is a relationship between the dark night of the soul and contemplation.

Does one exclude the other? Or is one a necessary part of the other. Or may one have contemplation without going thru a spiritual journey that St John of the Cross talks about? Or is contemplation necessary to any part of the spiritual journey?

I guess I’m asking, who is a candidate for contemplation…anyone, or there certain spiritual qualities required?
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Contemplation is for everyone in the degree that God allows them to have it.

This book is a great help in understanding the Doctors of the Church on prayer:

“Fire Within” by Father Thomas Dubay

amazon.com/Fire-Within-Teresa-Gospel–Prayer/dp/0898702631/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415541721&sr=1-1&keywords=Fire+within+by+father+thomas+dubay
 
fred_conty said:
Can anyone say where there is a relationship between the dark night of the soul and contemplation.

Does one exclude the other? Or is one a necessary part of the other. Or may one have contemplation without going thru a spiritual journey that St John of the Cross talks about? Or is contemplation necessary to any part of the spiritual journey?

I guess I’m asking, who is a candidate for contemplation…anyone, or there certain spiritual qualities required?
Click to expand...
I remember very clearly one day when I was an adolescent. I was playing with my little army guys. And I had the realization that, “This is just not fun anymore. How was it ever fun?” I was outgrowing it and ready to move on. The enjoyment of playing with those toys evaporated and became a dark night, so to speak, a normal aspect of maturing.

It sounds like the same can be applied spiritually. As John says, things that gave us such delight become empty of pleasure. Time to move on to a different kind of prayer.

CCC 2714 Contemplative prayer is also the pre-eminently intense time of prayer. In it the Father strengthens our inner being with power through his Spirit “that Christ may dwell in [our] hearts through faith” and we may be “grounded in love.”

St John also talks about this intense time of prayer as delicate and subtle. Perhaps it is a matter of refining our perception of it. Who is a candidate? Anyone who desires it…
 
It must be understood that not everyone goes through The Dark Night of the Soul. In fact, few do, and its only those who have come to union with Christ.

We can be brought to contemplation without experiencing the “Dark Night of the Soul,” but rather, all will go through the “Dark Night of Sense.”

This happens from the time we begin to detach from the appetites of the ego, which give pleasure to the senses, but are impediments toward union with God.

We must go to Jesus Christ as we are, not as we imagine others should see us as.

Jim
 
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