St John of the Cross

[TOP]

I have found the writings of St John of the Cross extraordinarily clear and understandable, and focussed on basics, esp. for someone writing in Spanish, in the 16th c. Francis de Sales for example is much harder to follow. Of course having the benefit of a good modern English translation is essential. Each of these great spiritual writers is writing, in each of their works, to a specific audience, addressing a specific stage or state in the spiritual journey. So if I am not in that particular stage, the work will have less relevance to me (although when I make more progress, it will suddenly “click” and become extremely pointed for me).

a gread book as an intro to stages in the spiritual life, and there could not be a writer more accessible to moderns, is Fr. Groeschels, Spiritual Passages and Journey Toward God. What you find there will be an overview of the spiritual life, and pointed, apt advice for you in whatever stage you find yourself.

Thanks, Tim

 

[DebChris]

Has anyone here actually read “The Dark Night of the Soul” by St. John of the Cross? I read a biography a while back about St. John but never read The Dark Night. In the biography it had some excerpts and mentions that the Dark Night was several texts and written from his prison cell window over looking the garden. The quotes were all poetic. I’m wondering if it is all poetry? I don’t know if I am mentally or spiritually ready for this but his life facinated me as well as his relationship with St Teresa of Avila.

I read it years ago. I also just recently read it as part of my Office of Readings.
It is a sequel to his earlier work, which you might might to read first.

 

[FCEGM]

. When I wrote “steak and potatoes” , I meant common, necessities. I don’t understand the elaborate writings for something common in spiritual growth. Tim

Tim, St. John states in the introduction that this work explains what the soul that has reached the highest degree of union with God has gone through to be brought to that point. So, though it is common in spiritual growth, it IS uncommon for a soul to have been brought that “high”, though all are called.

The “easiest” mode for a mystic to express the inexpressible is poetry since it can say in few words what the heart of the person is trying to say. The poem “The Dark Night”, is thus the main expression, with the prose being commentary. We may not at first grasp what St. John is saying, but as we grow in our prayer life more light will start to show through his words, if we will occasionally go back to the text. Don’t give up!

You may find this article helpful, Tim:

ourgardenofcarmel.org/johncarpenters.html

 

[Shoshana]

I can vouch for this book as my spiritual director gave it to me. I have read it three times. I am in the process in reading Science of the Cross by Edith Stein. She explains St Hohn in this book and the different stages of his life and the spiritual life. I have basically just started. I will go back to the KK’s book since I have read this book about 20 years ago but this has been the spirituality i have grown in…as the Spirit blows…

 

[utunumsint]

I’m reading a book by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange called Christian Perfection and Contemplation. He uses St. Thomas Aquinas to analyze and explain St. John of the Cross, and vice versa. It is a really hard read (for me anyway), but I’m finding it well worth the effort.

I wanted to share a few things I read that moved me. He quotes the following from St. John of the Cross:

In order to be supernaturally transformed, the soul must enter the darkness **(not only in regard to creatures, but in regard to what reason can know of God). **It must remain in the darkness like a blind person, relying on obscure faith, taking it as light and guide. The soul cannot help itself with any of the things which it understands, tastes, sentiments, and images. If the soul does not wish to extinguish its lights by preferring total obscurity to them, it will not reach what is superior, that is, what faith teaches…The soul creates great obstacles for itself in its ascent towards this lofty state of union with God when it relies on reasoning or is attached to its own judgement or will."

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange quotes this passage to show the total supernatural origin of the gift of faith, and how any human knowledge of God is only a preamble to the gift of faith which comes from God alone. He explains that this is why some saints go through such spiritual drinness. (When I read this, I thought that this might be what Mother Theresa or Therese of Lisieux went through during their moments of doubt).

He also quotes:

To busy oneself with things which are clear to the mind and of little value is to forbid onself access to the abyss of faith where God in secret supernaturally instructs the soul, and without its knowledge enriches it with virtues and gifts… The Holy Ghost enlightens the recollected intellect according to the measure of its recollection. But the most perfect recollection is that which takes place in faith, and for this reason the Holy Ghost does not communicate His lights outside of faith"

I’m only at page 75 of this 495 page book, but it makes me want to read St John of the Cross again. I’ve attempted to do it many times, but found it beyond me. Hopefully God is guiding me to a place where I can read his works more fruitfully.

God bless,
Ut

 

[FCEGM]

In order to be supernaturally transformed, the soul must enter the darkness (not only in regard to creatures, but in regard to what reason can know of God). It must remain in the darkness like a blind person, relying on obscure faith, taking it as light and guide. The soul cannot help itself with any of the things which it understands, tastes, sentiments, and images. If the soul does not wish to extinguish its lights by preferring total obscurity to them, it will not reach what is superior, that is, what faith teaches…The soul creates great obstacles for itself in its ascent towards this lofty state of union with God when it relies on reasoning or is attached to its own judgement or will."

Precisely what Mother Teresa went through. Of course, try to explain that to the media.

 

[Johenz]

FCEGM:

Precisely what Mother Teresa went through. Of course, try to explain that to the media.

I’ve purchased The collected Works of St John of the Cross and couldn’t put it down. What awesome writing!

This was the same thought I had when I heard of Mother Teresa’s letter. I was painfully reminded of “The Dark Night” when I saw that guy from the Catholic League, Bill Donohue, bumbled a “discussion” with atheist Christopher Hitchens by not discussing the tradition of the “dark night” in Catholic and Christian mysticism.

 

[TOP]

Tim, St. John states in the introduction that this work explains what the soul that has reached the highest degree of union with God has gone through to be brought to that point. So, though it is common in spiritual growth, it IS uncommon for a soul to have been brought that “high”, though all are called.

The “easiest” mode for a mystic to express the inexpressible is poetry since it can say in few words what the heart of the person is trying to say. The poem “The Dark Night”, is thus the main expression, with the prose being commentary. We may not at first grasp what St. John is saying, but as we grow in our prayer life more light will start to show through his words, if we will occasionally go back to the text. Don’t give up!

You may find this article helpful, Tim:

ourgardenofcarmel.org/johncarpenters.html

Right now I’m into The Confessions of St. Augustines. My readings have been in this order, True Devotion to Mary- St. DeMontfort, St. Faustina’s Diary and now Confessions. I spent two years in darkness following cancer and death to come out with a great consolation. I didn’t have words to put to it until I started reading about the Saints. What little I’ve read on St. John’s works leave me feeling “why does the mystic have to be so mystical?” Outline it for me so I can see where I am. Thanks, Tim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’ve purchased The collected Works of St John of the Cross and couldn’t put it down. What awesome writing!

This was the same thought I had when I heard of Mother Teresa’s letter. I was painfully reminded of “The Dark Night” when I saw that guy from the Catholic League, Bill Donohue, bumbled a “discussion” with atheist Christopher Hitchens by not discussing the tradition of the “dark night” in Catholic and Christian mysticism.

I’m not sure Bill Donohue would be the right person to explain and defend the aspects of the dark night. Mr Donohue is a defender of the church, but I don’t believe he is a contemplative, who would know the experience of a soul going through the “Dark Night.”

However, that being said, I’m not sure that even experts on the Dark Night, could explain it satisfactorily to a secular audience. Most would not succeed even with an average Catholic audience. Most Catholics are not contemplatives and would not understand what was being said.

Jim

 

[Johenz]

Jim,

I suppose that’s true. I think, too, that Mr Donohue’s style would interfere with any explanation of so delicate a concept.

I myself have just begun my “ascent of Carmel” as a Third Order Carmelite and have difficulty understanding some of the subtleties of the Carmelite contempaltives.

After some further perusing of the internet, I did run across some articles by Mr Hitchens on this same subject (ie, the personal papers of Mother Teresa), and he is aware of the concept of the dark night, but I seriously doubt he’s spent any time thinking about it.

 

[St_Gabriel]

I have found the writings of St John of the Cross extraordinarily clear and understandable, and focussed on basics, esp. for someone writing in Spanish, in the 16th c. Francis de Sales for example is much harder to follow. Of course having the benefit of a good modern English translation is essential. Each of these great spiritual writers is writing, in each of their works, to a specific audience, addressing a specific stage or state in the spiritual journey. So if I am not in that particular stage, the work will have less relevance to me (although when I make more progress, it will suddenly “click” and become extremely pointed for me).

a gread book as an intro to stages in the spiritual life, and there could not be a writer more accessible to moderns, is Fr. Groeschels, Spiritual Passages and Journey Toward God. What you find there will be an overview of the spiritual life, and pointed, apt advice for you in whatever stage you find yourself.

Hmmm. You really think St Francis de Sales was more difficult? I though he’s ideas were pretty straight-forward in Devote Life.

I agree with your point that these authors address a specific stage or state in the spiritual journey and I prefer to read them as the spirit guides me. They have helped me.

Here is where I have been:

The Bible
St Therese
St Augustine (stopped halfway)
St Frances de Sales
St Faustina (shorter version of her diary).
St Teresa of Availa
Church Fathers (history)
St Frances of Assisi
St John of the Cross (biography)
St Augustine (completed)
St Benedict of Narsia

(Throw in a bit of Mother Teresa and Mother Angelica)

Heading toward: St John of the Cross, St Catherine of Sienna

 

[DebChris]

Jim,

I suppose that’s true. I think, too, that Mr Donohue’s style would interfere with any explanation of so delicate a concept.

I myself have just begun my “ascent of Carmel” as a Third Order Carmelite and have difficulty understanding some of the subtleties of the Carmelite contempaltives.

After some further perusing of the internet, I did run across some articles by Mr Hitchens on this same subject (ie, the personal papers of Mother Teresa), and he is aware of the concept of the dark night, but I seriously doubt he’s spent any time thinking about it.

I am not a Carmelite. However, I used to have a subscription to Spiritual Life.

 

[TOP]

I’ve heard of the terms purgative, illuminative and unitive used in reference to spiritual growth. How a does the “dark night” fit in or does it? Would it be purgative in nature? Thank you, Tim

 

[DebChris]

I’ve heard of the terms purgative, illuminative and unitive used in reference to spiritual growth. How a does the “dark night” fit in or does it? Would it be purgative in nature? Thank you, Tim

The Dark Night begins by being purgative, removing all that is not of God.
The one image from Dark Night of the Soul that stands out the most for me is that of a log that has been ignited.
At first it is painful, but as the log continues to burn, the log becomes less recognizable from the fire itself until it has been totally consumed by the fire. Christ is the fire while the individual is the log.

 

[TOP]

The Dark Night begins by being purgative, removing all that is not of God.
The one image from Dark Night of the Soul that stands out the most for me is that of a log that has been ignited.
At first it is painful, but as the log continues to burn, the log becomes less recognizable from the fire itself until it has been totally consumed by the fire. Christ is the fire while the individual is the log.

Can the soul be illuminated to recognise what is sin in God’s eye’s, then true contrition comes that rejects sin and longs for God’s presence it can’t see, but is there, and feels rejected. Or is that not a “dark night”? Tim

 

[Shoshana]

The Dark Night begins by being purgative, removing all that is not of God.
The one image from Dark Night of the Soul that stands out the most for me is that of a log that has been ignited.
At first it is painful, but as the log continues to burn, the log becomes less recognizable from the fire itself until it has been totally consumed by the fire. Christ is the fire while the individual is the log.

Is this not John of the Cross’s example?

 

[DebChris]

Can the soul be illuminated to recognise what is sin in God’s eye’s, then true contrition comes that rejects sin and longs for God’s presence it can’t see, but is there, and feels rejected. Or is that not a “dark night”? Tim

I have had the experience you describe of my soul being illuminated to recognize the personal sins in my life. As I came to this recognition, I also felt the healing forgiveness of Christ love.
A person in the “dark night” might not feel the consolation. This lack of consolation does not mean that his sins were any less forgiven than were my own.
A person in the “dark night” may indeed be in a state of grace. God’s call is to trust and remain faithful throughout the night. John of the Cross also uses the example of a child being weaned. He no longer experiences his mother’s comfort although she is in reality never far away. He is moving into a new phase of his relationship with his mother in the same way that we are each called to grow in our relationship with Christ. We are called to seek Christ over the consolations he may or may not provide.

 

[TOP]

I have had the experience you describe of my soul being illuminated to recognize the personal sins in my life. As I came to this recognition, I also felt the healing forgiveness of Christ love.
A person in the “dark night” might not feel the consolation. This lack of consolation does not mean that his sins were any less forgiven than were my own.
A person in the “dark night” may indeed be in a state of grace. God’s call is to trust and remain faithful throughout the night. John of the Cross also uses the example of a child being weaned. He no longer experiences his mother’s comfort although she is in reality never far away. He is moving into a new phase of his relationship with his mother in the same way that we are each called to grow in our relationship with Christ. We are called to seek Christ over the consolations he may or may not provide.

Ok, Thank you, Tim

 

[puzzleannie]

I’ve heard of the terms purgative, illuminative and unitive used in reference to spiritual growth. How a does the “dark night” fit in or does it? Would it be purgative in nature? Thank you, Tim

the first dark night is the dark night of the senses and belongs to the first stage the purgative way, and is the condition the soul finds itself when the initial freedom from attachment to sins of the flesh has been achieved, and the soul is being prepared to “graduate” from a faith and spiritual life dependent on feelings, emotions, consolations, affirmations etc., and paves the way for progress to the illuminative way. the second dark night is that of the spirit, which marks the threshhold between the second and third way, and prepares the soul for infused contemplation and ultimately union with God.

reading the Dark Night gives John’s explanation, and as I say, Fr. Groeschel’s books are the best intro for beginners on the progress of spiritual growth. I will only add that it is very difficult for the soul to judge, without competent spiritual direction, exactly what she is experiencing and why, and what it denotes about her spiritual condition.

 

[TOP]

the first dark night is the dark night of the senses and belongs to the first stage the purgative way, and is the condition the soul finds itself when the initial freedom from attachment to sins of the flesh has been achieved, and the soul is being prepared to “graduate” from a faith and spiritual life dependent on feelings, emotions, consolations, affirmations etc., and paves the way for progress to the illuminative way. the second dark night is that of the spirit, which marks the threshhold between the second and third way, and prepares the soul for infused contemplation and ultimately union with God.

reading the Dark Night gives John’s explanation, and as I say, Fr. Groeschel’s books are the best intro for beginners on the progress of spiritual growth. I will only add that it is very difficult for the soul to judge, without competent spiritual direction, exactly what she is experiencing and why, and what it denotes about her spiritual condition.

Can this happen in a matter of minutes in an intercession called “illumination of conscience” by SD’s? Tim