St John The Baptist

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Okay so, I am having a discussion with my dad (who is fundamentalist baptist) about proofs that we know that certain events happened in the Gospels. John the Baptist was brought up. I had learned in my intro to NT class that this is one of many events that historically happened due to John The Baptist having his own religion that was competing with Christianity, Mandaeism. I noticed that two of the Gospels do not have him baptizing Jesus (Luke and John) and least they didn’t mention it. In Luke, Jesus is baptized after John is imprisoned.My dad disagreed with me.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?
 
John wasn’t competing with Christianity, he was preparing the way for the Lord. And He didn’t baptize the Lord after his imprisonment either, it was before. Christianity had not even been technically established during John’s ministry. There was some uncertainty by John’s disciples and Jesus’ disciples, but John was not competing with the Lord, in fact he made it clear that the Lord was the one who was to be followed.

As for the baptism, if one is determining the baptism of the Lord based upon the Lord’s entering Galilee, it needs to be said that there were two trips into that are mentioned. Here is a note taken from St. Remegius that is in my new synopsis based upon Matt 4:12a Mark 1:14a John 3:24,
St. Remigius But this should be considered with more care that John says that the Lord went into Galilee, before John the Baptist was thrown into prison. According to John’s Gospel after the water turned into wine, and his going down to Capernaum, and after his going up to Jerusalem, he returned to Judaea and baptized, and John was not yet cast into prison. But here (in Matthew 4:12) it is after John’s imprisonment that He retires into Galilee, and with this Mark agrees. But we need not suppose any contradiction here. John speaks of the Lord’s first coming into Galilee, which was before the imprisonment of John. He speaks in another place of His second coming into Galilee [John 4:3], and the other Evangelists mention only this second coming into Galilee which was after John’s imprisonment. (St. Remigius com. On Mt.)
 
Not at the time, but his followers founded a religion later on that rejected Jesus, Abraham, and Moses.
Then that was not John’s doings, it was those who went astray. John’s doing was those who followed Jesus, that is what John intended, not for some of his followers to create something else. Christianity has its own people who created their own ways, but that’s not the doings of Christianity nor is it a form of Christianity, but the doings of man. John the Baptist is the forerunner to Christ not an opponent by any means.
 
By the way, you seem to be taking the claims from a Gnostic sect and its own literature as an authority to a claim concerning John the Baptist. I hope your father doesn’t think that this is a Catholic teaching because that is misrepresenting Catholicism.
 
St. John the Baptist who just happens to be my father and my patron saint was not in any way going against Christianity. He forged the way for Christ but did not found his own religion. His followers many, many years after his execution have nothing to do with what he actually said, did, and taught. They were gnostics that went against Christianity.

God bless!
 
My take on it is…

Everybody expected great things from John the Baptist because an angel appeared to his father, a priest, in the holy of holies and his father was struck dumb for nine months because of his disbelief. (He and his wife were elderly and prayed for a baby.) His father told the crowd via writing it down. So all the while John was growing up, people were wondering what kind of child this would turn out to be. They were expecting a Savior… who was born of a virgin, so that sort of left John out… But, what does John do? He calls the people to repent of their sins. EVERYONE from Judea went out to see him and hear him. And what does he do??? He points to Jesus and says this is the LAMB of GOD!

John’s followers got the message. They joined Jesus.
 
That Jesus would come to be baptized by a man of a competing faith, I don’t buy it. Jesus came to be baptized* “…to fulfill all righteousness”*. John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus.
 
Jesus spoke these words:

Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

On a side note, it does ask the question where does Mary fit then? Maybe just beneath John? Hummm.
 
Okay so, I am having a discussion with my dad (who is fundamentalist baptist) about proofs that we know that certain events happened in the Gospels. John the Baptist was brought up. I had learned in my intro to NT class that this is one of many events that historically happened due to John The Baptist having his own religion that was competing with Christianity, Mandaeism.
I’d like to know what they’re teaching you in that NT class. John the Baptist is a revered figure in Mandaeism (which is really a gnostic religion) - by contrast, Jesus is seen as a false prophet - but he didn’t found it.
I noticed that two of the Gospels do not have him baptizing Jesus (Luke and John) and least they didn’t mention it. In Luke, Jesus is baptized after John is imprisoned.My dad disagreed with me.
Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?
In historical Jesus studies, there’s this concept known as the ‘criterion of embarrassment’. Simply put, this denotes certain elements and events in Jesus’ life which early Christians are said to have found to be ‘embarrassing’ (or to be more correct, ‘difficult’ or ‘against the grain’) for a number of reasons - for example, they couldn’t quite neatly square it with their beliefs about Jesus - yet which they couldn’t just shake away. These events are often considered to be more historically plausible precisely for that reason: it’s hard to imagine early Christians making up stuff that they themselves would find difficult and uncomfortable.

Two textbook examples of ‘against the grain’ material would be the crucifixion of Jesus and His baptism. The crucifixion would obviously be one of more hard-to-swallow events in Jesus’ life, especially in the ancient world because it’s a very shameful death - as St. Paul said, it is a “stumbling-block”. The baptism of Jesus, meanwhile, has some difficulty too because John the Baptist in the tradition preached “a baptism of repentance to the remission of sins.” If you take the event simply by itself, it might make Jesus look like as if He came to be baptized to be forgiven of whatever sins He had (which would go against Jesus being without sin), or make Him look like as if He became a disciple of John (I mean, Jesus is superior to John, right?) - which could potentially be fodder for opponents of Christianity. But the event cannot simply be dismissed or covered up, so the question is, how can one pass on this tradition faithfully without making Jesus appear sinful or inferior to John?

Now the gospels handle the dilemma quite differently from each other. Mark’s, out of the four, is the simplest: he just states matter-of-factly that Jesus was baptized in the space of a single sentence without further elaboration. “In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.” Matthew, meanwhile, inserts a short dialogue between John and Jesus that makes it clear that Jesus is in the higher position - Jesus came to be baptized of His own free will, “to fulfill all righteousness.”

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.

Luke is a little more clever: Jesus in his version is already baptized when he goes back to Him - the deed is already done ‘off-screen’. In addition, he doesn’t say directly that Jesus was baptized by John: “Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying…” BTW, Luke doesn’t necessarily imply that Jesus was baptized after John was imprisoned. He simply mentions the story of John’s imprisonment in the general context of his exhortations to the people. (In other words, it’s not linear.) In fact, that’s one of the ways he deals with the dilemma: he inserts the ‘flash-forward’ to John’s imprisonment before Jesus’ baptism perhaps to shift focus away from the event itself.

John has a more developed approach: in the first three chapters, he repeatedly has John the Baptist emphasizing how Jesus is higher than he is. (In fact, JB doesn’t even get a proper closure unlike in the other gospels; he just disappears without a trace from the narrative as soon as he says: “He must increase, but I must decrease.”) The gospel does allude to the descent of the Holy Spirit (recorded in the other gospels as occurring at Jesus’ baptism), but doesn’t say that it happened when he baptized Jesus.

And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
 
I’d like to know what they’re teaching you in that NT class. John the Baptist is a revered figure in Mandaeism (which is really a gnostic religion) - by contrast, Jesus is seen as a false prophet - but he didn’t found it.

In historical Jesus studies, there’s this concept known as the ‘criterion of embarrassment’. Simply put, this denotes certain elements and events in Jesus’ life which early Christians are said to have found to be ‘embarrassing’ (or to be more correct, ‘difficult’ or ‘against the grain’) for a number of reasons - for example, they couldn’t quite neatly square it with their beliefs about Jesus - yet which they couldn’t just shake away. These events are often considered to be more historically plausible precisely for that reason: it’s hard to imagine early Christians making up stuff that they themselves would find difficult and uncomfortable.

Two textbook examples of ‘against the grain’ material would be the crucifixion of Jesus and His baptism. The crucifixion would obviously be one of more hard-to-swallow events in Jesus’ life, especially in the ancient world because it’s a very shameful death - as St. Paul said, it is a “stumbling-block”. The baptism of Jesus, meanwhile, has some difficulty too because John the Baptist in the tradition preached “a baptism of repentance to the remission of sins.” If you take the event simply by itself, it might make Jesus look like as if He came to be baptized to be forgiven of whatever sins He had (which would go against Jesus being without sin), or make Him look like as if He became a disciple of John (I mean, Jesus is superior to John, right?) - which could potentially be fodder for opponents of Christianity. But the event cannot simply be dismissed or covered up, so the question is, how can one pass on this tradition faithfully without making Jesus appear sinful or inferior to John?

Now the gospels handle the dilemma quite differently from each other. Mark’s, out of the four, is the simplest: he just states matter-of-factly that Jesus was baptized in the space of a single sentence without further elaboration. “In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.” Matthew, meanwhile, inserts a short dialogue between John and Jesus that makes it clear that Jesus is in the higher position - Jesus came to be baptized of His own free will, “to fulfill all righteousness.”

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.

Luke is a little more clever: Jesus in his version is already baptized when he goes back to Him - the deed is already done ‘off-screen’. In addition, he doesn’t say directly that Jesus was baptized by John: “Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying…” BTW, Luke doesn’t necessarily imply that Jesus was baptized after John was imprisoned. He simply mentions the story of John’s imprisonment in the general context of his exhortations to the people. (In other words, it’s not linear.) In fact, that’s one of the ways he deals with the dilemma: he inserts the ‘flash-forward’ to John’s imprisonment before Jesus’ baptism perhaps to shift focus away from the event itself.

John has a more developed approach: in the first three chapters, he repeatedly has John the Baptist emphasizing how Jesus is higher than he is. (In fact, JB doesn’t even get a proper closure unlike in the other gospels; he just disappears without a trace from the narrative as soon as he says: “He must increase, but I must decrease.”) The gospel does allude to the descent of the Holy Spirit (recorded in the other gospels as occurring at Jesus’ baptism), but doesn’t say that it happened when he baptized Jesus.

And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
Thank you 🙂

I talked to my professor this morning since it had been quite a while since we covered it. He did use the term you did, but he basically said the same thing, but you went into far greater detail. Thank you 🙂
 
Okay so, I am having a discussion with my dad (who is fundamentalist baptist) about proofs that we know that certain events happened in the Gospels. John the Baptist was brought up. I had learned in my intro to NT class that this is one of many events that historically happened due to John The Baptist having his own religion that was competing with Christianity, Mandaeism. I noticed that two of the Gospels do not have him baptizing Jesus (Luke and John) and least they didn’t mention it. In Luke, Jesus is baptized after John is imprisoned.My dad disagreed with me.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?
Three Gospels in fact show Jesus baptized: Mark, Matthew, and Luke (3:21-23).
Luke also doesn’t say that Jesus was baptized **after **John was imprisoned.
What’s going on is that Luke talks about John being imprisoned, THEN it goes on talking
about Jesus, informing us that he was baptized too. That does not mean that Jesus was
baptized AFTER John was imprisoned.

Now John did not have his own religion, he was a Jewish prophet. I sus-
pect that Mandaeism came from possibly people who were baptized by
John (Acts 19:3), but missed out on baptism of Jesus (Acts 19:4-5).

Paul also gives warning to Timothy of early Gnostic Movements, telling
him to avoid such things (1 Timothy 6:20), so the disciples of John the
Baptist who did not yet receive Jesus might have been seduced by that
early Gnosticism, thus came about Mandaeism.
(Aramaic manda “knowledge” as does Greek *gnosis)
*However, for all we know, Mandaeism may not have any real lineage back to
John, but may have come from “once-Christians” who left Jesus and formed
their own John-based religion.
 
However, for all we know, Mandaeism may not have any real lineage back to
John, but may have come from “once-Christians” who left Jesus and formed
their own John-based religion.
Your second contention is the right one (Definitely late 1st millennium. History points to it), though with them there may have never been a connection to our Lord, as you sate as well. 🙂
 
=JCC1990;11476232]Okay so, I am having a discussion with my dad (who is fundamentalist baptist) about proofs that we know that certain events happened in the Gospels. John the Baptist was brought up. I had learned in my intro to NT class that this is one of many events that historically happened due to John The Baptist having his own religion that was competing with Christianity, Mandaeism. I noticed that two of the Gospels do not have him baptizing Jesus (Luke and John) and least they didn’t mention it. In Luke, Jesus is baptized after John is imprisoned.My dad disagreed with me.
Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?
My friend,

WELCOME TO CAF:)

What may I ask are the odds that God is wrong?
My friend, welcome to CAF!

John Baptist:
Mt. 3: 1-3 “And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by Isaias the prophet, saying: A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths.” [Isa.40:3]

Mt. 11: 11-15
“Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John: And if you will receive it, he is Elias that is to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Mt. 3: 13-16 “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John,[THE BAPTST] to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

The idea that John somehow taught a competing religion is a fabrication. Something we Catholics have to deal with far too often. 😊

Either your source is serious error or the bible is a useless tool; unable to teach anyone God’s Teachings. Because it is God’s Words, and has established itself over a 2,000 year period; logic and history itself support the bible against your other sources.

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
I talked to my professor this morning since it had been quite a while since we covered it. He did use the term you did, but he basically said the same thing, but you went into far greater detail. Thank you 🙂
A word of advice about the ‘criterion of embarrassment’ though. First off, there’s that term - ‘embarrassment’. That’s probably not the best term to use. It’s really hard to believe that the early Christians and the evangelists were sitting around, sheepishly telling, say, how Jesus was baptized while fidgeting uncomfortably on their seats. In fact, one might argue that they seem to have been hardly ‘embarrassed’ at all if they kept repeating the story and handing it down. That’s why a scholar named E.P. (Ed) Sanders suggested that we call it ‘against the grain’ material instead - ‘criterion of embarrassment’ sounds too much like attempts at pop-psychology of the evangelists.
 
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