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bbentrup
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Argumentation, please?
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puzzleannie
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he was preaching to his congregation, and to the people of his area who belonged to his parish but were not practicing the faith, and he was preaching in the face of widespread immorality among the population, no doubt blaming some of that on the type of dances going on. He was condemning that type of dancing, by those people, at that time and place, because it had that undesireable result.
While that does not mean all types of dancing are immoral, or beget immorality, it does bear rethinking today with today’s style of dancing. Many of our local school districts have banned dances because of the open immoral gestures that are part of the modern dances kids are doing, and because of other illegal activities it seems to enable. DD tells me she no longer allows her kids to watch that dancing stars show because it has, to hear her tell it, become a showcase of immorality. I’ll take her word for it because I don’t want and have no desire to.
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Debora123
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slywakka250
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A thread on dancing… 
First of all, all of you here on CAF who do not dance, you at least ought to try it a few times. It is more fun than you know.
Dancing is a huge part of my life. I do a kind of swing dance called west coast swing. Yes this is primarily a partner dance, i.e. “mixed dancing.” I have been competing in competitions for years now, and while I have danced with hundreds or women over thousands of dances, I have not had any real sexual contact with any of them.
I wouldn’t say this is necessarily a good thing, but I am making the point that partner dance, even dance that can involve very close contact and sexually suggestive moves, is not a clear “occasion of sin”.
Of course, I should mention here that I am not sure I even believe in the reality of “sin” in the first place, but that is besides the point.
First of all, all of you here on CAF who do not dance, you at least ought to try it a few times. It is more fun than you know.
Dancing is a huge part of my life. I do a kind of swing dance called west coast swing. Yes this is primarily a partner dance, i.e. “mixed dancing.” I have been competing in competitions for years now, and while I have danced with hundreds or women over thousands of dances, I have not had any real sexual contact with any of them.
I wouldn’t say this is necessarily a good thing, but I am making the point that partner dance, even dance that can involve very close contact and sexually suggestive moves, is not a clear “occasion of sin”.
Of course, I should mention here that I am not sure I even believe in the reality of “sin” in the first place, but that is besides the point.
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manualman
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While sexual morality is absolute and not relative, the occasions of sin related to it differ by culture and people. In many remote tropical cultures, women go about daily life bare breasted and nobody around them blinks. A woman tries that here, and she’ll cause a 20 car pileup…
I’m not an expert on mid1800’s culture, but I suspect that if you dig, you will find that dances of the day were a place where people typically went with the goal of ‘hooking up’ (whatever they called it back then). The Cure most likely was savvy enough of his culture to recognize that so he made a simplification to speak to his audience. Granted that hookup culture goes on plenty today too, but it is hardly a general statement one can make of ALL couples dancing in all places. See?
I’m not an expert on mid1800’s culture, but I suspect that if you dig, you will find that dances of the day were a place where people typically went with the goal of ‘hooking up’ (whatever they called it back then). The Cure most likely was savvy enough of his culture to recognize that so he made a simplification to speak to his audience. Granted that hookup culture goes on plenty today too, but it is hardly a general statement one can make of ALL couples dancing in all places. See?
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thistle
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So under your thought process then men and women should not travel on the same bus or train because that would mean they are putting themselves in an occasion where they can sin.
Frankly all of this is silly.
Let’s all ban dancing and have separate buses and trains for men and women.
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bbentrup
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When you hold hands (or go a lot more intimate than that), relax dress rules to some degree, and encourage flirtation on buses, I will admit that that would be a good analogy.
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CompSciGuy
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I think your answer is the best one yet. Thanks!
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Catholic90
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Ever see “Fiddler on the Roof”? Remember the wedding scene?
Perchik shocks the people of Anatevka because he is breaking a tradition: he crosses the barrier between the men and women to dance with Tevye’s daughter Hodel. Then Tevye dances with his wife Golde for the first time. Then the new groom Motel dances with his bride Tzeitel.
Prior to that men danced with men, and women danced with women. At least according to “Fiddler on the Roof” – it was TRADITION!!
Perchik shocks the people of Anatevka because he is breaking a tradition: he crosses the barrier between the men and women to dance with Tevye’s daughter Hodel. Then Tevye dances with his wife Golde for the first time. Then the new groom Motel dances with his bride Tzeitel.
Prior to that men danced with men, and women danced with women. At least according to “Fiddler on the Roof” – it was TRADITION!!
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tvdxer
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What?!! You can surely grind a lot easier to country music (although it’s nearly impossible) than to trance. Can you really grind to this masterpiece?
youtube.com/watch?v=V5-6rmYJiM4
The beat of music “suitable” for grinding is much slower. People usually grind to rap music, reggae, or reggaeton (which essentially has a reggae beat)…not trance!
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Giles_Walker
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I consider dancing to be a legitimate art form such as has been supported and cultivated by the church for a very long time. Intimacy is a fundamental, not necessarily sexual aspect of human behaviour.
Dancing is a very social and even passionate art form, with such a level of passion as exists in any art form, but this very passion we find uplifting and inspirational, and not at all irreverent.
Behind all recreational dancing is an art school and a dancing academy, disciplined, devoted, and passionately concerned.
Dancing is a very social and even passionate art form, with such a level of passion as exists in any art form, but this very passion we find uplifting and inspirational, and not at all irreverent.
Behind all recreational dancing is an art school and a dancing academy, disciplined, devoted, and passionately concerned.
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slywakka250
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great post.
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kittyo
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I completely agree- I polka with my friends and family and a very learned and holy priest taught us a really awesome circle dance from Slovakia, Poland or somewhere around there.
I have three brothers and I dance with them and my dad all the time- imho, whether or not it is an occasion of sin really depends on the dance and the partner.
But seriously, dance is a great gift from God. We shouldn’t reject all dance just because some dances are occasions of sin. Conversely, not all dance is good- in fact most of the dance today is most definitely at the very very least, a near occasion of sin.
Here is an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia on dance: newadvent.org/cathen/04618b.htm
(just so this post isn’t entirely my own experiences and opinions.
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centurionguard
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In The Good Book It Say’s There’s Time and Place For Everything (“if done morally”)
I certainly Don’t believe in Liturgical Dance at Masses.
I certainly Don’t believe in Liturgical Dance at Masses.
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CompSciGuy
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Liturgical dance wasn’t actually the topic of the thread… but I think pretty much all of us will agree with you. I am not in any way shape or form a “traditionalist” as it is often described… but I interpret innovations like “liturgical dance” as individuals saying “what the Church has given us isn’t good enough, I need worship to be more centered around me and my talents.”
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chevalier
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Dancing has a huge potential to be a messy and confusing issue.
There’s no way to claim that dancing per se is intrinsically evil or disordered.
On the other hand, looking from the side at dancing people, there’s quite a lot of the type of close physical contact that would not be considered appropriate in pretty much any other situation. This does look strange. Then there’s the issue of the cause. What exactly cause do two strangers have to hug each other so closely (e.g. what’s the cause for a female stranger to throw her arms around the neck of a male stranger and for him to lock his arms around her waist?), let alone the 15 cm or less distance from each other’s opposing body? It doesn’t make me an animal (I’m male) but for what cause, for what reason, is it happening? This is the kind of thoughts I have. And I’m not even particularly shy about hugging people, expressing affection for them physically, supporting someone who’s in need of it, etc. So this does look weird.
There’s no way to claim that dancing per se is intrinsically evil or disordered.
On the other hand, looking from the side at dancing people, there’s quite a lot of the type of close physical contact that would not be considered appropriate in pretty much any other situation. This does look strange. Then there’s the issue of the cause. What exactly cause do two strangers have to hug each other so closely (e.g. what’s the cause for a female stranger to throw her arms around the neck of a male stranger and for him to lock his arms around her waist?), let alone the 15 cm or less distance from each other’s opposing body? It doesn’t make me an animal (I’m male) but for what cause, for what reason, is it happening? This is the kind of thoughts I have. And I’m not even particularly shy about hugging people, expressing affection for them physically, supporting someone who’s in need of it, etc. So this does look weird.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
The Saints are Saints because they were personally very, very close to God in their personal devotion.
That does NOT make them RIGHT about EVERYTHING.
Pope SAINT Pius V prescribed that homosexuals in Rome be executed by burning them alive. (written by Sir Robin Anderson, FAN of Pius V, in his book published by TAN books). To think to do such a thing to a repentant person who confessed such a sin!!
While Pius V was a SAINT and INFALLIBLE in doctrine,
that doesn’t mean his judicial decisions were always right.
That does NOT make them RIGHT about EVERYTHING.
Pope SAINT Pius V prescribed that homosexuals in Rome be executed by burning them alive. (written by Sir Robin Anderson, FAN of Pius V, in his book published by TAN books). To think to do such a thing to a repentant person who confessed such a sin!!
While Pius V was a SAINT and INFALLIBLE in doctrine,
that doesn’t mean his judicial decisions were always right.
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Mintaka
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The Catholic Church has never said that all dancing is immoral, or even that most dancing is immoral.
Many Jewish festivals mandated dancing by men on the Temple steps, by maidens in the vineyards, or by all the women in Jerusalem dressed up like brides dancing along the streets.
Some of the earliest Greek hymns of the Church were songs that were supposed to be joyous dance songs for maidens at weddings. Dancing came into a lot of early Christian literature, medieval literature, and so forth, so obviously the Fathers and Doctors were not a bunch of poopyhead funhaters. Heck, St. Teresa of Avila would play guitar or castanets so that her discalced Carmelite nuns could sing and dance along, as part of their exercise and recreation time, and she was a Doctor of the Church herself.
The point is that dancing, like every other good thing, can be corrupted by sinful humans. When people have messed up dancing to the point that folks like St. John Vianney are forbidding it, you know that it must be getting pretty skanky. (And yes, hearty French folk dances can be done skankily, just like anything else. The male and female skanks of this world work hard at implementing a total skankiness lifestyle.) If people were brawling in the streets of Ars, letting their fields go because they were too lazy or too busy drinking, and generally raising chaos in every other way, are you really surprised that they couldn’t have nice dances, either?
And yes, songs that simulate or describe sex are a perennial folksong trope. Same thing with describing animals dying. (I’m sure the fiddler of Ars knew songs that simulated both sounds, as there are a ton of instrumental fiddle songs that do that, even in classical music.) There is absolutely nothing new under the Top 40. (Well, there are fewer songs about dying screams these days, unless you count gangsta rap as hunting songs.)
Many Jewish festivals mandated dancing by men on the Temple steps, by maidens in the vineyards, or by all the women in Jerusalem dressed up like brides dancing along the streets.
Some of the earliest Greek hymns of the Church were songs that were supposed to be joyous dance songs for maidens at weddings. Dancing came into a lot of early Christian literature, medieval literature, and so forth, so obviously the Fathers and Doctors were not a bunch of poopyhead funhaters. Heck, St. Teresa of Avila would play guitar or castanets so that her discalced Carmelite nuns could sing and dance along, as part of their exercise and recreation time, and she was a Doctor of the Church herself.
The point is that dancing, like every other good thing, can be corrupted by sinful humans. When people have messed up dancing to the point that folks like St. John Vianney are forbidding it, you know that it must be getting pretty skanky. (And yes, hearty French folk dances can be done skankily, just like anything else. The male and female skanks of this world work hard at implementing a total skankiness lifestyle.) If people were brawling in the streets of Ars, letting their fields go because they were too lazy or too busy drinking, and generally raising chaos in every other way, are you really surprised that they couldn’t have nice dances, either?
And yes, songs that simulate or describe sex are a perennial folksong trope. Same thing with describing animals dying. (I’m sure the fiddler of Ars knew songs that simulated both sounds, as there are a ton of instrumental fiddle songs that do that, even in classical music.) There is absolutely nothing new under the Top 40. (Well, there are fewer songs about dying screams these days, unless you count gangsta rap as hunting songs.)
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