St. Louie's Mariology

[MJDorry]

Hello, I’m new here and will really only be on to ask questions regarding Catholic faith. I’m working my way slowly into Catholicism and trying to understand certain aspects of Catholic spirituality.

One that continues to trip me up even though I’ve been given good explanations is Marian devotion. I understand her significance as the mother of God (thus making her our mother too) and as a stainless human, and how it is beneficial to us to pray to her that she pray for us. That said, however, a friend of mine allowed me to borrow his copy of Louis De Montfort’s “The Secret of Mary” and reading it leaves me very confused and frustrated.

Louis, having been a primary influence, if not the primary influence, in the Church’s current Mariology, seems to take Marian devotion to an exceeding level and while he occasionally reminds the reader that this is really about communion with Christ, it seems to me that he really is strictly devoted to Mary and simply uses Christ as a means of not sounding heretical.

At least, that’s my current understanding. I am very uneducated in this area of Catholic spirituality and I was brought up to essentially always address Christ directly, as I strongly believe he is the medium and not that there is some medium between Him and us. I seems to me that Louis De Montfort very much treats Mary like she is the only true way to Christ that our lives ought to be about Mary all the time, but this seems to me to be very unsound.

If someone could clear this up for me and at the same time offer me a deeper understanding of how Marian devotion is truly an essential element in our spirituality, I would greatly appreciate it. I must honestly say that I wasn’t merely frustrated, but outright furious reading some parts of the book. But I don’t know who’s right, I have only how I’ve been raised and how I’ve reasoned my spirituality.

And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I’ve prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries

 

[Brooklyn]

Hello, I’m new here and will really only be on to ask questions regarding Catholic faith. I’m working my way slowly into Catholicism and trying to understand certain aspects of Catholic spirituality.

One that continues to trip me up even though I’ve been given good explanations is Marian devotion. I understand her significance as the mother of God (thus making her our mother too) and as a stainless human, and how it is beneficial to us to pray to her that she pray for us. That said, however, a friend of mine allowed me to borrow his copy of Louis De Montfort’s “The Secret of Mary” and reading it leaves me very confused and frustrated.

Louis, having been a primary influence, if not the primary influence, in the Church’s current Mariology, seems to take Marian devotion to an exceeding level and while he occasionally reminds the reader that this is really about communion with Christ, it seems to me that he really is strictly devoted to Mary and simply uses Christ as a means of not sounding heretical.

At least, that’s my current understanding. I am very uneducated in this area of Catholic spirituality and I was brought up to essentially always address Christ directly, as I strongly believe he is the medium and not that there is some medium between Him and us. I seems to me that Louis De Montfort very much treats Mary like she is the only true way to Christ that our lives ought to be about Mary all the time, but this seems to me to be very unsound.

If someone could clear this up for me and at the same time offer me a deeper understanding of how Marian devotion is truly an essential element in our spirituality, I would greatly appreciate it. I must honestly say that I wasn’t merely frustrated, but outright furious reading some parts of the book. But I don’t know who’s right, I have only how I’ve been raised and how I’ve reasoned my spirituality.

St. Louis de Montfort always taught that all devotion is ultimately to Jesus Christ. The reason he, and the Catholic Church, promote Marian devotion can be found in this paragraph from “True Devotion to Mary”, also written by St. Lous de Montfort:

As all perfection consists in our being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus it naturally follows that the most perfect of all devotions is that which conforms, unites, and consecrates us most completely to Jesus. Now of all God’s creatures Mary is the most conformed to Jesus. It therefore follows that, of all devotions, devotion to her makes for the most effective consecration and conformity to him. The more one is consecrated to Mary, the more one is consecrated to Jesus.

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was never at any time stained with sin. She was conceived immaculately, without stain of original sin, and was sinless for the rest of her human life. Therefore, she was never at any point separated from God as all the rest of mankind is. Her will was and is always perfectly in line with that of God and of her Son, Jesus Christ. She is the most perfect of all of God’s creation, and that is why she was chosen to be the Mother of God.

An interesting story is when, at three months pregnant, she went to see her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist. When Elizabeth saw Mary, she proclaimed “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” How did Mary respond? She immediately gave the glory to God: “My soul doth magnify the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.” Any devotion we give to Mary she in turn gives to her son.

St. Louis de Montfort wrote:

Mary adorns her clients with her merits, assists them with her power, enlightens them with her light, and kindles them with her love. She imparts her virtues to them and becomes their security, their intercessor, and their all with Jesus

As a Protestant, I am sure you pray for others and they pray for you, so intercession before the throne of Christ is not new to you, even though you may have never thought of it that way. And the person you would most want praying for you is one who is closest to God. Well, certainly no one was ever closer to Jesus than his own mother and he most certainly loved her above all others, and would grant her anything she asks because her will is perfectly in line with his. Why would you not want to go this most beautiful and perfect of all God’s creation and ask for her intercession? She actually wants us to do that, and that is one gift from our Lord that I will not turn down. As I pointed out, any glory you give to her she will give immediately to her Son, as she did with her cousin Elizabeth.

 

[maltmom]

And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I’ve prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries

As a new Catholic this is something that I’m still trying to learn. I’ve asked one of my closest friends how do you meditate on the mysteries while saying something else. He really didn’t have an answer other than you do. I guess it comes with practice.

Welcome and please join us in the RCIA and Convert group.
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=1487

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi MJ,

Welcome to the forums!

You have a very serious question, to which you’ve given much thought.

I’m afraid that I’m not able to speak directly on your question of how to incorporate De Monfort into your own life. But, I can offer a personal anecdote which might be useful for you.

When I first began to become serious about following Christ, knowing VERY little, I picked up and tried to read Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship”, a very well-loved Christian book by a universally well-regarded Lutheran author. I ran across this line very early in my reading:

“When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.”

and never could get past it.

Simply put, it was the wrong book at the wrong time. This happens sometimes. (And, sometimes in some cases a book might always be the wrong one for us.)

I think De Monfort can often be the wrong book at the wrong time for people, especially who are just beginning their journey. It takes awhile to understand the language De Monfort uses, and what he means by it, and how it contextually fits into the life and history of the Church.

I hope the other posters might shed some light on it for you. (And I hope take into account that not everyone needs to like De Monfort!)

Welcome again,
VC

 

[Brooklyn]

Hi MJ,

Welcome to the forums!

You have a very serious question, to which you’ve given much thought.

I’m afraid that I’m not able to speak directly on your question of how to incorporate De Monfort into your own life. But, I can offer a personal anecdote which might be useful for you.

When I first began to become serious about following Christ, knowing VERY little, I picked up and tried to read Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship”, a very well-loved Christian book by a universally well-regarded Lutheran author. I ran across this line very early in my reading:

and never could get past it.

Simply put, it was the wrong book at the wrong time. This happens sometimes. (And, sometimes in some cases a book might always be the wrong one for us.)

I think De Monfort can often be the wrong book at the wrong time for people, especially who are just beginning their journey. It takes awhile to understand the language De Monfort uses, and what he means by it, and how it contextually fits into the life and history of the Church.

I hope the other posters might shed some light on it for you. (And I hope take into account that not everyone needs to like De Monfort!)

Welcome again,
VC

I don’t think it’s fair to compare Bonhoeffer, who was a Protestant minister, to St. Louis de Montfort, a cannonized saint of the Catholic Church. I would not agree with your analogy. Pope John Paul II said that de Montfort changed his life. His moto during his papacy was “Totus Tuus”, meaning all yours to the Blessed Mother.

If you feel de Montfort is too heavy to start with, maybe you could recommend something else?

 

[TrueLight]

Hello, I’m new here and will really only be on to ask questions regarding Catholic faith. I’m working my way slowly into Catholicism and trying to understand certain aspects of Catholic spirituality.

One that continues to trip me up even though I’ve been given good explanations is Marian devotion. I understand her significance as the mother of God (thus making her our mother too) and as a stainless human, and how it is beneficial to us to pray to her that she pray for us. That said, however, a friend of mine allowed me to borrow his copy of Louis De Montfort’s “The Secret of Mary” and reading it leaves me very confused and frustrated.

Louis, having been a primary influence, if not the primary influence, in the Church’s current Mariology, seems to take Marian devotion to an exceeding level and while he occasionally reminds the reader that this is really about communion with Christ, it seems to me that he really is strictly devoted to Mary and simply uses Christ as a means of not sounding heretical.

At least, that’s my current understanding. I am very uneducated in this area of Catholic spirituality and I was brought up to essentially always address Christ directly, as I strongly believe he is the medium and not that there is some medium between Him and us. I seems to me that Louis De Montfort very much treats Mary like she is the only true way to Christ that our lives ought to be about Mary all the time, but this seems to me to be very unsound.

If someone could clear this up for me and at the same time offer me a deeper understanding of how Marian devotion is truly an essential element in our spirituality, I would greatly appreciate it. I must honestly say that I wasn’t merely frustrated, but outright furious reading some parts of the book. But I don’t know who’s right, I have only how I’ve been raised and how I’ve reasoned my spirituality.

And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I’ve prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries

MJDorry,

As a convert myself, what I would recommend is that you not start with St Louis De Montfort.

Br. Jr had recommended a really good book to me - Bishop Fulton J. Sheen’s: The World’s First Love - Mary Mother of God.

I agree with Verbum Caro in that there are some books which we get stuck in early on in our journey. You will eventually come back to St Louis de Monfort.

My word of encouragement is that it is normal for converts to struggle with Marian doctrine. I found Bishop Sheen’s book a nice introduction that made me see our Lady in a different and beautiful light.

 

[Lupe_Lu]

Hello, I’m new here and will really only be on to ask questions regarding Catholic faith. I’m working my way slowly into Catholicism and trying to understand certain aspects of Catholic spirituality.

One that continues to trip me up even though I’ve been given good explanations is Marian devotion. I understand her significance as the mother of God (thus making her our mother too) and as a stainless human, and how it is beneficial to us to pray to her that she pray for us. That said, however, a friend of mine allowed me to borrow his copy of Louis De Montfort’s “The Secret of Mary” and reading it leaves me very confused and frustrated.

Louis, having been a primary influence, if not the primary influence, in the Church’s current Mariology, seems to take Marian devotion to an exceeding level and while he occasionally reminds the reader that this is really about communion with Christ, it seems to me that he really is strictly devoted to Mary and simply uses Christ as a means of not sounding heretical.

At least, that’s my current understanding. I am very uneducated in this area of Catholic spirituality and I was brought up to essentially always address Christ directly, as I strongly believe he is the medium and not that there is some medium between Him and us. I seems to me that Louis De Montfort very much treats Mary like she is the only true way to Christ that our lives ought to be about Mary all the time, but this seems to me to be very unsound.

If someone could clear this up for me and at the same time offer me a deeper understanding of how Marian devotion is truly an essential element in our spirituality, I would greatly appreciate it. I must honestly say that I wasn’t merely frustrated, but outright furious reading some parts of the book. But I don’t know who’s right, I have only how I’ve been raised and how I’ve reasoned my spirituality.

And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I’ve prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries

TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY* by De Montfort answers all of your questions and more.
I suggest reading the book rather than asking online.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare Bonhoeffer, who was a Protestant minister, to St. Louis de Montfort, a cannonized saint of the Catholic Church. I would not agree with your analogy. Pope John Paul II said that de Montfort changed his life. His moto during his papacy was “Totus Tuus”, meaning all yours to the Blessed Mother.

If you feel de Montfort is too heavy to start with, maybe you could recommend something else?

Brooklyn,

I wasn’t comparing Bonheoffer to De Monfort.

If you’d like, I can give you another example: I’ve noticed that a convert jumping right into some of the writings of Saint Escriva (The Way, the Furrow, and the Forge) can experience confusion and feel disheartened, because he was writing to particular persons in particular circumstances – and not necessarily to converts where they are at that moment.

VC

 

[Brooklyn]

TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY* by De Montfort answers all of your questions and more.
I suggest reading the book rather than asking online.

And if you wish to read True Devotion to Mary online, here is the link. If you have an ebook reader, here is a link for a free download.

 

[triumphguy]

You can become a very good Catholic without reading de Montfort.

 

[Brooklyn]

Brooklyn,

I wasn’t comparing Bonheoffer to De Monfort.

If you’d like, I can give you another example: I’ve noticed that a convert jumping right into some of the writings of Saint Escriva (The Way, the Furrow, and the Forge) can experience confusion and feel disheartened, because he was writing to particular persons in particular circumstances – and not necessarily to converts where they are at that moment.

VC

That’s fine, but then if you are going to discourage reading de Montfort, you should give something else in its place, not just leave the OP hanging with no way of understanding. I’m curious - have you ever read any of de Montfort’s books?

 

[Brooklyn]

You can become a very good Catholic without reading de Montfort.

That is not the point. You are getting off subject. We are not discussing “being a good Catholic.” The OP wants to understand Marian devotion. Many, including many popes, feel that de Montfort is the “go to” person for this. He is currently a candidate for doctor of the church.

 

[eternalrest]

To understand St. Louis de Montfort, think rotten apples on a golden platter. We are the rotten apples, Mary is the golden platter. If we go to Jesus directly, he sees our sins. If we go through Mary, he sees his Mother. Mary will always look better to Jesus than us. Humility.

My primary question regarding the Devotion is whether or not it is true? Isn’t it possible to pray too much rosaries and forget charity? How do you know if spending all your time in rosary is serving God or yourself?

 

[jwinch2]

To the OP:

One thing to consider is that you are not required to accept or use all of St. Louis’s take on Marian devotion beyond the extent which the Church universal takes it dogmatically. Private revelations and private devotions are not binding on the Church as a whole, to include the faithful. In addition, there are many terms thrown around (Mediatrix of all graces, co-redemptrix, etc.) which the Church uses from time to time, but has never defined. The Church has also gone so far as to state that use of those terms while dogmatically sound, can and do create some confusion because they are easily misunderstood. Cradle Catholics often do not understand how difficult it can be for converts to come to terms with Marian devotion at the level that some Catholics, including great saints, practice it.

I would suggest that jumping into Marian devotion at the level of St. Louis de Montfort might be VERY counter-productive for someone who is considering the Church or new to the Faith as a whole. Mary would never want herself to be a stumbling block or a barrier to those who are seeking her Son. She would most likely say that it is not supposed to be about her at all. With that in mind, I strongly suggest that you go back and seek an understanding of Mary as the Church Fathers understood her, and then allow your Marian devotion to develop more organically over time. It is important to remember that St. Louis de Montfort’s Mariology must be within the tradition of the Church as a whole. Starting at the beginning, might help you to understand this, and allow a significantly greater comfort level with it. I recommend this book as a good place to start. amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338221421&sr=1-12

Once you get more comfortable with the traditional approach to Mary as propagated by the Church Fathers, you might consider something like this book instead of diving back into Montfort: amazon.com/Mary-The-Church-at-Source/dp/158617018X/ref=pd_sim_b_2. This might be several years down the road and that is completely fine. I also second the recommendation of Archbishop Sheen’s book on Mary. It is an excellent introduction.

Finally, you may never get to the level of Marian devotion that St. Louis, St. Dominic, St. Bonaventure, the Little Flower, etc. had in their lives. That is OK. You are not required to as long as you do not reject Church doctrine in the process. I personally venerate Mary as the greatest of all saints who was without sin at any point in her live from conception to death, as the mother of God, and as a powerful advocate through her intercession with her Son, our Blessed Lord. I pray the rosary from time to time, but really don’t take it much beyond that. Perhaps someday I will. Guess what, that’s OK also. You will not hear or see me using the words: co-redemptrix, mediatrix, etc. I do not use words which have not been defined in a clear manner. I find that it leads to way, way, too much confusion and inaccuracy. This is our eternal soul we are talking about. Confusion is bad.

[RANT]

To cradle Catholics and/or those with a hefty Marian devotion:

Please, stop recommending saints like Monfort, the Little Flower, etc. to potential converts or those in RCIA. It all too often leads to confusion and doubt and while I know the attempt is to be helpful, more often then not, it isn’t. A better tactic would be to discuss Mary in the manner in which the Catechism does. In fact, the US Catechism is even more clear on her than the Universal Catechism, which I suppose makes sense since the Universal Catechism is designed for Bishops, etc. In my RCIA class we had approx. 25 people. 90% of us talked openly that Mary was one if not the, biggest stumbling blocks to our conversion to the Faith. If you doubt the veracity of my claims, check the number of threads started by new converts or potential converts on Mary. All too often, they discuss something very similar to what the OP did in this thread. In trying to be helpful and share the fullness of the Faith, many people are being hurt more than they are being helped.

[/RANT]

 

[Lifesong]

Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen is a great starting point for us converts- as a former Protestant pastor he “gets” our concerns and it really helped me embrace Mary as my Mom too

I am planning to start a different total consecration program which is new from Father Michael Gatley (Consoling the Heart of Jesus) called 33 Days to Morning Glory. It incorporates De Montfort with Maximillian Kolbe as well as Blessed John Paul II and Mother Theresa and seems easier to follow and understand for our generation. Anyone else do this one- I plan to start on June 13th so I end on the feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. I would love to hear from anyone who has tried it.

Blessings,

Val

 

[Brooklyn]

To understand St. Louis de Montfort, think rotten apples on a golden platter. We are the rotten apples, Mary is the golden platter. If we go to Jesus directly, he sees our sins. If we go through Mary, he sees his Mother. Mary will always look better to Jesus than us. Humility.

My primary question regarding the Devotion is whether or not it is true? Isn’t it possible to pray too much rosaries and forget charity? How do you know if spending all your time in rosary is serving God or yourself?

I think you answered your own question. Any devotion to Mary is actually directed to her Son. We are just giving it through her (not to her) because she will take it, clean it up and make it presentable to give to the King of all Creation. St. Augustine said any praise we give to Mary is little in comparison to what she deserves. Drawing close to Mary has one result - drawing closer to Christ. She will always lead us to him, without fail.

 

[TrueLight]

To the OP:

I would suggest that jumping into Marian devotion at the level of St. Louis de Montfort might be VERY counter-productive for someone who is considering the Church or new to the Faith as a whole. Mary would never want herself to be a stumbling block or a barrier to those who are seeking her Son. She would most likely say that it is not supposed to be about her at all. With that in mind, I strongly suggest that you go back and seek an understanding of Mary as the Church Fathers understood her, and then allow your Marian devotion to develop more organically over time. It is important to remember that St. Louis de Montfort’s Mariology must be within the tradition of the Church as a whole. Starting at the beginning, might help you to understand this, and allow a significantly greater comfort level with it.

To cradle Catholics and/or those with a hefty Marian devotion:

Please, stop recommending saints like Monfort, the Little Flower, etc. to potential converts or those in RCIA. It all too often leads to confusion and doubt and while I know the attempt is to be helpful, more often then not, it isn’t. A better tactic would be to discuss Mary in the manner in which the Catechism does. In fact, the US Catechism is even more clear on her than the Universal Catechism, which I suppose makes sense since the Universal Catechism is designed for Bishops, etc. In my RCIA class we had approx. 25 people. 90% of us talked openly that Mary was one if not the, biggest stumbling blocks to our conversion to the Faith. If you doubt the veracity of my claims, check the number of threads started by new converts or potential converts on Mary. All too often, they discuss something very similar to what the OP did in this thread. In trying to be helpful and share the fullness of the Faith, many people are being hurt more than they are being helped.

We have to meet people where they are. I am so thankful for the posters who PMed me in the early days and explained things to me where I was, in a way that I was able to understand.

 

[Brooklyn]

[RANT]

To cradle Catholics and/or those with a hefty Marian devotion:

Please, stop recommending saints like Monfort, the Little Flower, etc. to potential converts or those in RCIA. It all too often leads to confusion and doubt and while I know the attempt is to be helpful, more often then not, it isn’t. A better tactic would be to discuss Mary in the manner in which the Catechism does. In fact, the US Catechism is even more clear on her than the Universal Catechism, which I suppose makes sense since the Universal Catechism is designed for Bishops, etc. In my RCIA class we had approx. 25 people. 90% of us talked openly that Mary was one if not the, biggest stumbling blocks to our conversion to the Faith. If you doubt the veracity of my claims, check the number of threads started by new converts or potential converts on Mary. All too often, they discuss something very similar to what the OP did in this thread. In trying to be helpful and share the fullness of the Faith, many people are being hurt more than they are being helped.

[/RANT]

I’m curious as to why no one has commented on my first post in which I tried to explain Marian devotion to the OP. Instead, we are getting posts like this which tell us to just back off. Isn’t it better to try to explain this most important teaching of the Church? Wouldn’t that help in the “stumbling blocks?” Or did my post actually make it more unclear? I sincerely would like to know.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

That’s fine, but then if you are going to discourage reading de Montfort, you should give something else in its place, not just leave the OP hanging with no way of understanding. I’m curious - have you ever read any of de Montfort’s books?

You took what I said as discouraging people from reading Monfort? Why would I do that?

Yes, I have read him.

VC

 

[MJDorry]

Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen is a great starting point for us converts- as a former Protestant pastor he “gets” our concerns and it really helped me embrace Mary as my Mom too

I am planning to start a different total consecration program which is new from Father Michael Gatley (Consoling the Heart of Jesus) called 33 Days to Morning Glory. It incorporates De Montfort with Maximillian Kolbe as well as Blessed John Paul II and Mother Theresa and seems easier to follow and understand for our generation. Anyone else do this one- I plan to start on June 13th so I end on the feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. I would love to hear from anyone who has tried it.

Blessings,

Val

It’s a funny coincidence that you brought this up because my friend who lent me the book I think got it while at a shrine in Voorheesville, NY where a whole bunch of clergy were gathered and offering programs for 33 Days to Morning Glory.