St. Louie's Mariology

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I’m sure you’ll find the Cross/Christ on every Rosary. There would reside the goal. Any help along the way, I gladly accept. 👍

Mary is one the greatest mysteries in the Apostolic Churchs. While some would be inclined so say they disagee with the CC. Poor act of deception IMHO. For you see the difference is only in degree.

Scott Hahn is great, Mary Through the Centuries by Prof Jaroslav Pelikan is great and he wrote as a Lutheran. St Loius de Montfort is the far end of the spectrum I suppose one could say.

I believe understanding the actual history in the church brings solid understanding to the foundation of Mary.
 
You took what I said as discouraging people from reading Monfort? Why would I do that?

Yes, I have read him.

VC
This is what you originally posted:
I think De Monfort can often be the wrong book at the wrong time for people, especially who are just beginning their journey. It takes awhile to understand the language De Monfort uses, and what he means by it, and how it contextually fits into the life and history of the Church.
That certainly sounds like you’re telling the OP not to read de Montfort. My problem was you gave no alternatives, but just let the OP hanging.
 
Also, I appreciate everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut and attempts to answer my (rather complicated) question, especially converts who understand where I am coming from. I suppose it is unwise to read advanced trigonometry when one has yet to develop a foundational understanding of algebra.
 
That certainly sounds like you’re telling the OP not to read de Montfort. My problem was you gave no alternatives, but just let the OP hanging.
It doesn’t sound like that to me – I said it takes awhile to understand him.

I hope the OP doesn’t feel like I just left him hanging. I even hoped that other would shed some light on it for him.

Maybe my post just wasn’t your cup of tea!

VC
 
One of the beauties of Catholicism is that there are many saints, with many different paths to finding Christ and loving Him. The Franciscans live their life as Christ the Servant, serving the poorest of the poor to find their way to Him. The Missionaries of Mercy (The order founded by Mother Theresa) also found charity to be their path towards God. Dominicans teach, and this Christ as Teacher mentality is what is the heart of the charism of their order. Carmelites find God through learning to love Him and forming an intimate relationship with him through contemplative prayer. Those who follow the teaching of St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus are strong believers in accepting the providence of God and living a virtuous life as the simplest path of God.

Each of these particular ways of looking at God and paths to get to Him has a different way of seeing Mary. I have never read St. Louis de Montfort, and the few times I’ve tried, I’ve immediately set the book down. I think it’s the concept of being a slave to Mary that just doesn’t quite work for me and my spirituality right now. And that’s okay. I may read him someday and have a totally different relationship with Mary than I do now. But for now, that is not the book I need to read.

My relationship with Mary has been very largely formed by the words of St. Therese in “Story of a Soul.” Her Little Way is based in Christ’s teaching of coming to him as a little child. She sees herself as a small child, full of innocence and grace, completely dependent on the love of her Divine Sun (Christ), and she sees herself dependent on the love and protection of her Mother, Mary. Instead of being a servant of Mary, she truly sees Mary as anyone would see their mother - as a teacher, as a confident, as a protector, as someone who offers consolation and safety and love. When a child falls and skins their knee, the first thing they do is run to their mother. And this is how she approaches Mary, someone to turn to when she needs the loving attention of a mom. She approaches Mary as a little child would approach their own mother - with humble confidence that by simply asking with love, the mother will give all that she asks and more. She describes her relationship with Mary in relation to receiving the eucharist in the most beautiful way:
When I am preparing for Holy Communion, I picture my soul as a piece of land, and I beg the Blessed Virgin to remove from it any rubbish that would prevent it from being free; then I ask her to set up a huge tent worthy of heaven, adoring it with her own jewelry; finally, I invite all the angels and saints to come and conduct a magnificent concert there. It seems to me that when Jesus descends into my heart He is content to find Himself so well received, and I, too, am content.
She also sees Mary as one to console her when she is having difficulty in prayer:
However, I would not want you to believe, dear Mother, that I recite without devotion the prayers said in common in the choir or the hermitages. On the contrary, I love very much these prayers in common, for Jesus has promised to be in the midst of those who gather together in His name. I feel then that the fervor of my Sisters makes up for my lack of fervor; but when alone (I am ashamed to admit it) the recitation of the rosary is more difficult for me than the wearing of an instrument of penance. I feel I have said this so poorly! I force myself in vain to meditate on the mysteries of the rosary; I don’t succeed in fixing my mind on them. For a long time I was desolate about this lack of devotion which astonished me, for I love the Blessed Virgin so much that it should be easy for me to recite in her honor prayers which are so pleasing to her. Now I am less desolate; I think that the Queen of heaven, since she is my MOTHER, must see my good will and she is satisfied with it.
The Blessed Virgin never fails to protect me as soon as I invoke her. If some disturbance overtakes me, some embarrassment, I turn very quickly to her and as the most tender of Mothers she always takes care of my interests. How many times, when speaking to the novices, has it happend that I invoked her and felt the benefits of her motherly protection!
I view Mary as a protector, and as a guide to her Son. I see her as a perfect role model, and constantly work to hear the words of God and ponder them in my heart as she did. I wear my brown scapular every day in honor of Her, and as a reminder to live my life in the way that she lived hers.

I still struggle in “knowing” her, as I sometimes struggle with “knowing” Christ. But when I want to remember Christ’s humanity, and think of Mary’s influence on those around her regarding her son, I think of Christ at the wedding of Cana. Here they are, Christ, and his mom, and his friends, at a celebration. The libations run out, and his mother turns to him and says, “They have no wine.” Now that’s a woman of subtlety - I can only imagine the look on her face when she said it. He tested her by saying (and I’m paraphrasing him), “And that’s my business how?” But instead of being rebuffed, and knowing that he would do what she asks, she turns to the servants at the wedding and says, “Do whatever he tells you.” Just the mental image of Mary looking at him and very subtly suggesting to him to help with the social situation amuses me. But it’s also bittersweet, because in that moment, she knows that what she is doing is facilitating his ministry here on earth, the beginning of the end as it were.

I hope this helps in some way.
 
One of the beauties of Catholicism is that there are many saints, with many different paths to finding Christ and loving Him. The Franciscans live their life as Christ the Servant, serving the poorest of the poor to find their way to Him. The Missionaries of Mercy (The order founded by Mother Theresa) also found charity to be their path towards God. Dominicans teach, and this Christ as Teacher mentality is what is the heart of the charism of their order. Carmelites find God through learning to love Him and forming an intimate relationship with him through contemplative prayer. Those who follow the teaching of St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus are strong believers in accepting the providence of God and living a virtuous life as the simplest path of God.

Each of these particular ways of looking at God and paths to get to Him has a different way of seeing Mary. I have never read St. Louis de Montfort, and the few times I’ve tried, I’ve immediately set the book down. I think it’s the concept of being a slave to Mary that just doesn’t quite work for me and my spirituality right now. And that’s okay. I may read him someday and have a totally different relationship with Mary than I do now. But for now, that is not the book I need to read.

My relationship with Mary has been very largely formed by the words of St. Therese in “Story of a Soul.” Her Little Way is based in Christ’s teaching of coming to him as a little child. She sees herself as a small child, full of innocence and grace, completely dependent on the love of her Divine Sun (Christ), and she sees herself dependent on the love and protection of her Mother, Mary. Instead of being a servant of Mary, she truly sees Mary as anyone would see their mother - as a teacher, as a confident, as a protector, as someone who offers consolation and safety and love. When a child falls and skins their knee, the first thing they do is run to their mother. And this is how she approaches Mary, someone to turn to when she needs the loving attention of a mom. She approaches Mary as a little child would approach their own mother - with humble confidence that by simply asking with love, the mother will give all that she asks and more. She describes her relationship with Mary in relation to receiving the eucharist in the most beautiful way:

She also sees Mary as one to console her when she is having difficulty in prayer:

I view Mary as a protector, and as a guide to her Son. I see her as a perfect role model, and constantly work to hear the words of God and ponder them in my heart as she did. I wear my brown scapular every day in honor of Her, and as a reminder to live my life in the way that she lived hers.

I still struggle in “knowing” her, as I sometimes struggle with “knowing” Christ. But when I want to remember Christ’s humanity, and think of Mary’s influence on those around her regarding her son, I think of Christ at the wedding of Cana. Here they are, Christ, and his mom, and his friends, at a celebration. The libations run out, and his mother turns to him and says, “They have no wine.” Now that’s a woman of subtlety - I can only imagine the look on her face when she said it. He tested her by saying (and I’m paraphrasing him), “And that’s my business how?” But instead of being rebuffed, and knowing that he would do what she asks, she turns to the servants at the wedding and says, “Do whatever he tells you.” Just the mental image of Mary looking at him and very subtly suggesting to him to help with the social situation amuses me. But it’s also bittersweet, because in that moment, she knows that what she is doing is facilitating his ministry here on earth, the beginning of the end as it were.

I hope this helps in some way.
Beautiful post.
 
Also, to jwinch2, I always recommend St. Therese to anyone wishing to learn how to love God more. She’s perfect for those wanting to read more from writings of the saints, because her writings on the surface are very simple, and easy to digest (some would even say too syrupy at times). But on reflection and further study, her simplicity masks hidden gems that can bring so much clarity to different aspects on how to be virtuous.

Is she the only saint I recommend? No. But I know that when I became Catholic, I struggled very hard with the concept of Mary, and of how to relate to God. But her “Little Way” absolutely changed my life, and her concept of relating to Mary as a little child helped me grasp Mary’s love for me, and the kind of love I should have for Her. Every time I pick up “Story of a Soul”, I glean another little bit of knowledge about myself and about God that I needed to learn at that moment. Her story about the rosary, shared above, brought me such consolation in my own struggles with the Rosary. Her story about the daisy helped me to realize that being just what I am is enough to become sanctified, if I simply do what I do all for the love of God. St. John of the Cross is the master of teaching detachment, and yet she taught me so much more when telling the story of specifically choosing a chipped bowl and old wooden spoon as her diningware. St. Teresa talking of love of neighbor as love of God is classic spiritualism, but the story of Therese talking about going out of her way to help the crotchety old nun in her convent gave me an example of how to take those axioms and put them into action.
 
As a new Catholic this is something that I’m still trying to learn. I’ve asked one of my closest friends how do you meditate on the mysteries while saying something else. He really didn’t have an answer other than you do. I guess it comes with practice.

Welcome and please join us in the RCIA and Convert group.
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=1487
a great site to look at is holyspiritinteractive.net/prayers/therosary/sr_thejoyfulmysteries.asp

You will notince that all the HAIL MARY’s have a scriptural verse attached to it (except the 10th Hail Mary in the Glorious mysteries!) … I hope this helps you with praying the rosary… For the first while, yes, it will take time to practise it… It took me a VERY long time to get used to it… Now, I know both the scripture and the rosary off by heart! May God bless you and all of your loved ones!
 
“I still struggle in “knowing” her, as I sometimes struggle with “knowing” Christ. But when I want to remember Christ’s humanity, and think of Mary’s influence on those around her regarding her son, I think of Christ at the wedding of Cana. Here they are, Christ, and his mom, and his friends, at a celebration. The libations run out, and his mother turns to him and says, “They have no wine.” Now that’s a woman of subtlety - I can only imagine the look on her face when she said it. He tested her by saying (and I’m paraphrasing him), “And that’s my business how?” But instead of being rebuffed, and knowing that he would do what she asks, she turns to the servants at the wedding and says, “Do whatever he tells you.” Just the mental image of Mary looking at him and very subtly suggesting to him to help with the social situation amuses me. But it’s also bittersweet, because in that moment, she knows that what she is doing is facilitating his ministry here on earth, the beginning of the end as it were.”

Thank you for that beautiful post.
Your discussion of the ‘bittersweet’ aspect of the Miracle at Cana really struck a chord. I think of Mary as one who gave ‘all’ to God, fully consenting. Your discussion drove this home in a new immediate way for me. a wonderful meditiation. That some day I may attain such humility… Amen.
 
Also, to jwinch2, I always recommend St. Therese to anyone wishing to learn how to love God more. She’s perfect for those wanting to read more from writings of the saints, because her writings on the surface are very simple, and easy to digest (some would even say too syrupy at times). But on reflection and further study, her simplicity masks hidden gems that can bring so much clarity to different aspects on how to be virtuous.
I agree that St. Therese has much to offer. However, I still do not think she is a good choice for for beginners and new converts. In fact, I do not recommend the writings of any specific saint for new converts. Rather, books which compile things from various saints in a usable format and can put it in the correct context and within the tradition of the Church are better choices. Individual saints got things wrong from time to time and not everything they wrote has been accepted into the deposit of faith. In addition, taking quotes from saints out of context or without someone learned to properly interpret them can do far more harm than good. This is particularly important for a topic such as Mary.
 
Also, I appreciate everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut and attempts to answer my (rather complicated) question, especially converts who understand where I am coming from. I suppose it is unwise to read advanced trigonometry when one has yet to develop a foundational understanding of algebra.
MJ, as one who is consecrated to Mary according to the method of St. Louis de Montfort, I’m going to cut through the clutter and address you directly.

My suggestion is simple. Don’t try to understand. Pray instead that Jesus tells you all you need to know. Pray, earnestly ask for light and guidance, and then let it go.

That is what I did. I knelt in adoration, in the presence of Jesus, and said, “Lord, I am hearing many things about your mother which I don’t understand. If there is something that you want me to know about your mother which will benefit my soul and give glory to God, then please let me know.” I actually walked out of adoration that night and said, “Well, its out of my hands now.”

God may lead you to the place where I am, or he may lead to you a completely different place. Don’t worry about it. But the first place you should go, before reading anything, or before asking questions here, is prayer. St. Louis de Montfort’s writings are accepted by the Church and his methods to bring oneself closer to Jesus through Mary are orthodox. He wouldn’t be a saint if that wasn’t the case. It has brought me closer to God, but I realize that it is not for everyone.

Pray, ask, and let it go. If it is for you, God will be the one to let you know. If it is for you, then you won’t be able to stop it.

-Tim-
 
To cradle Catholics and/or those with a hefty Marian devotion:

Please, stop recommending saints like Monfort, the Little Flower, etc. to potential converts or those in RCIA. It all too often leads to confusion and doubt and while I know the attempt is to be helpful, more often then not, it isn’t. A better tactic would be to discuss Mary in the manner in which the Catechism does. In fact, the US Catechism is even more clear on her than the Universal Catechism, which I suppose makes sense since the Universal Catechism is designed for Bishops, etc. In my RCIA class we had approx. 25 people. 90% of us talked openly that Mary was one if not the, biggest stumbling blocks to our conversion to the Faith. If you doubt the veracity of my claims, check the number of threads started by new converts or potential converts on Mary. All too often, they discuss something very similar to what the OP did in this thread. In trying to be helpful and share the fullness of the Faith, many people are being hurt more than they are being helped.

[/RANT]

Thank you for posting this. As a recent convert I can only speak of my experience. I studied the CCC and I came to answer section of catholic.com of over a year to study and have my questions answered. I didn’t come to the forums. I knew that if I had, I would have gotten confused as to what was personal opinion vs personal revelation vs actual Church teaching. I’ so thankful that I didn’t come here or I may still be sitting in a Baptist church on Sunday morning. I have seen posts that have made me go :eek: I’ve read that Mary brings salvation and that she’s the only way. That if one doesn’t pray the Rosary they are going to hell. Had I seen either of those posts at the beginning of my journey I may have turned away and ran for the hills. I agree that people here want to be helpful. I also feel that a distinction needs to made regarding what Saint’s have written and what the Church has declared dogma. I did not attend RCIA. I had a long discussion with my Priest. At the end, my “final exam” was to pray the Hail Mary with him. I was able to do so with the fullness of heart.
 
At the end, my “final exam” was to pray the Hail Mary with him. I was able to do so with the fullness of heart.
Speaking of “final exams”. . . (and this relates to MJDorry’s original post) . . . I recall hearing from a priest that sometimes at the end of a Catholic’s life, on their death bed, when pain or dementia hampers memory, sometimes people are still able to pray the Hail Mary, because they prayed it so much during their lifetime.

The habit of praying the Hail Mary became like a chain (of the rosary) that linked them to Christ in their last moments. A sort of “final exam”.

VC
 
Speaking of “final exams”. . . (and this relates to MJDorry’s original post) . . . I recall hearing from a priest that sometimes at the end of a Catholic’s life, on their death bed, when pain or dementia hampers memory, sometimes people are still able to pray the Hail Mary, because they prayed it so much during their lifetime.

The habit of praying the Hail Mary became like a chain (of the rosary) that linked them to Christ in their last moments. A sort of “final exam”.

VC
I’ve heard about that happening as well. I also believe it could happen.
 
Speaking of “final exams”. . . (and this relates to MJDorry’s original post) . . . I recall hearing from a priest that sometimes at the end of a Catholic’s life, on their death bed, when pain or dementia hampers memory, sometimes people are still able to pray the Hail Mary, because they prayed it so much during their lifetime.

The habit of praying the Hail Mary became like a chain (of the rosary) that linked them to Christ in their last moments. A sort of “final exam”.

VC
Interesting:)
 
Hi MJ,

Welcome to the forums!

You have a very serious question, to which you’ve given much thought.

I’m afraid that I’m not able to speak directly on your question of how to incorporate De Monfort into your own life. But, I can offer a personal anecdote which might be useful for you.

When I first began to become serious about following Christ, knowing VERY little, I picked up and tried to read Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship”, a very well-loved Christian book by a universally well-regarded Lutheran author. I ran across this line very early in my reading:

and never could get past it.

Simply put, it was the wrong book at the wrong time. This happens sometimes. (And, sometimes in some cases a book might always be the wrong one for us.)

I think De Monfort can often be the wrong book at the wrong time for people, especially who are just beginning their journey. It takes awhile to understand the language De Monfort uses, and what he means by it, and how it contextually fits into the life and history of the Church.

I hope the other posters might shed some light on it for you. (And I hope take into account that not everyone needs to like De Monfort!)

Welcome again,
VC
Verbum Caro.

What a beautiful post. And oh how true. By the way, I love Bonhoeffer. Such a holy man.

MJ. I second those who say you don’t have to read nor like Montfort in order to be a good Catholic. I have been Catholic for 9 years and I am still not “ready” for Montfort. I can accept that some people love it, but I won’t use it as a devotion for I don’t feel comfortable with it, and I know the Church doesn’t ask anyone to take spiritualities or devotions based on private revelations, unless they freely choose to do this and it helps them.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom.
The Holy Spirit points us to Christ. Christ points us to his Father.
And if he sees it fit he also introduces us to Mary and shows us her beauty and motherly love. Thats a blessing, but its not supposed to become a stumblingblock.

So please do feel free. There are so many lovely devotions and ways to pray. Like simply meditating on the Word of God, the psalms, the Jesus prayer, the Rosary, the divine mercy chaplet and not to forget, silence prayer and speaking freely to our Lord with all your intentions, praise and thanks.

The Rosary is wonderful. As a convert I like it. Its Biblical and it gives me peace. However, I say you are right… most people cannot fully concentrate on two things at once. I also am only able to concentrate on the conversation with Mary during the Hail Marys etc, the mysteries come in flash like images. Thats why its important to pray other prayers too… especially free prayers. Thats also the example Jesus gave us. He gave us the Our Father when we asked… but the free example he gave was conversing freely, according to situation, with his Father in Heaven.

Hugs from another convert. 🙂
 
This is what you originally posted:

That certainly sounds like you’re telling the OP not to read de Montfort. My problem was you gave no alternatives, but just let the OP hanging.
No one is ever left hanging… You give Jesus too little credit. He is always there. And we have the Bible which is the only inspired writing we have, the highest of all writings in this world. There is so much nourishment in it. How can you say the OP was left hanging as though Montfort was remotely the only thing to help a new Catholic? I really don’t understand that.
 
Thank you for posting this.
You’re welcome. There are probably a dozen threads similar to this one regarding Marian devotion/doctrine started by recent or potential converts. In addition, we really do have to be careful at recommending the writings of saints to those who are not well grounded in the faith to begin with. Not everything they said is truthful or good for the soul. Even many of the things which are truthful require authoritative interpretation within the Tradition of the Faith to bring their truth to light.
 
In addition, we really do have to be careful at recommending the writings of saints to those who are not well grounded in the faith to begin with. Not everything they said is truthful or good for the soul. Even many of the things which are truthful require authoritative interpretation within the Tradition of the Faith to bring their truth to light.
Very true. Few are Doctors of the Church at that.
 
MJ, as one who is consecrated to Mary according to the method of St. Louis de Montfort, I’m going to cut through the clutter and address you directly.

My suggestion is simple. Don’t try to understand. Pray instead that Jesus tells you all you need to know. Pray, earnestly ask for light and guidance, and then let it go.

That is what I did. I knelt in adoration, in the presence of Jesus, and said, “Lord, I am hearing many things about your mother which I don’t understand. If there is something that you want me to know about your mother which will benefit my soul and give glory to God, then please let me know.” I actually walked out of adoration that night and said, “Well, its out of my hands now.”

God may lead you to the place where I am, or he may lead to you a completely different place. Don’t worry about it. But the first place you should go, before reading anything, or before asking questions here, is prayer. St. Louis de Montfort’s writings are accepted by the Church and his methods to bring oneself closer to Jesus through Mary are orthodox. He wouldn’t be a saint if that wasn’t the case. It has brought me closer to God, but I realize that it is not for everyone.

Pray, ask, and let it go. If it is for you, God will be the one to let you know. If it is for you, then you won’t be able to stop it.

-Tim-
Very good advice. This is what I did. I went to my priest and said, “I’m confused. I don’t know which Mary to pray to - do I pray to the Immaculate Conception (Our Lady of Grace on the Miraculous Medal), or Our Lady of Guadalupe or Our Lady of Good Counsel, or Our Lady at the foot of the cross, or Our Lady of the Immaculate Heart or … who exactly?” He said, “Pray to Mary at the foot of the cross that you will get to know her.” And I did. About a month after these prayers, I started reading “Story of a Soul” and got to know Our Lady of Mount Carmel, who is the perfect example of contemplation for the Carmelites. And that is “my” Mary now.

I feel confident that Christ let me to her because he had a specific path for me to take to get to know Him. But I also feel confident that there is a reason that there are so many different paths to Him, through her. All of our spirituality is slightly different, and as long as we do all for Love, God will gently draw us to Him.
 
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