St. Louie's Mariology

[De_Montfort]

No, they should be given the time to mature spiritually before expecting them to dive into something that even long time Catholics admit can be difficult. They should be able to approach the Faith in a manner which allows them to grow organically instead of being thrown into the deep end of the pool on their first day. Heck, the OP likened it to trying to learn advanced trig when they are still struggling with basic algebra. That ought to tell you and anyone else who is paying attention that they are not ready. That is all. Again, no one is telling them to ignore the teaching, people are simply telling them to take their time and reminding people who are brand new to the faith that such things are not required because all to often, private devotions such as this are presented as if they are essential to the Faith, and they are not.

De Montfort’s writings are some of the more challenging and nuanced, particularly for converts and potential converts. You might spend some time reading the forums and looking at other similar threads before responding in the manner that you have. If you do, you will see quickly that Marian devotion, particularly when taken to the level that de Montfort does, is one of the most commonly asked questions and sources of discomfort for those looking to come into the Church. Telling people who are in such circumstances that various popes have supported it or that you happen to like it does not alleviate their situation at all.

So I didn’t post to “your” standards? It doesnt change the fact that people should be informed!

And there is nothing wrong in showing it has been approved by Popes, that only shows it’s importance.

There is nothing wrong with trying to help someone understand! Just because someone doesn’t get off the bat, doesnt mean it should be thrown out the window.

 

[MJDorry]

De Montfort and Brooklyn, I appreciate what both of you have had to say and that you took the time to say anything at all. That said, however, I sincerely find your approaches to be a bit too bracing for a timid beginner and dabbler such as myself; and when it comes to recommendation, I ask only that you pray much for prudence in directing newcomers to the Catholic faith as there is much in St. Louis’s writings that converts–Especially those from protestantism, and gnostics–will find to be indigestible when starting out. Different paths to understanding must be prescribed to different minds as each of us is ailed and lacking in different ways.

To all others, again, I thank you too.

 

[GraceDK]

Kind of like thinking about two lines of inquiry at once isn’t it. Actually not. First of all, after saying the Hail Mary many times over the years, you kind of go on automatic pilot. Sometimes when I say the rosary, such as when driving, I really stay with the words so I stay in the here and now. If I am meditating on the mysteries, **I usually ask Mary to lead me **into better understanding, I say the mystery, the Our Father, then start the Hail Mary’s. The beads are kind of a trigger to start another one, but I focus or picture in my mind what is happening in the mystery at the time and just let my mind drift. ** I do not try to monitor my every word of the Hail Mary. **
:

How do you know you are not “babbling like the heathens” which Jesus told us explicitly not to do? Its an honest question I’ve been thinking about when people told me that my words should become back ground music…

 

[GraceDK]

No, they should be given the time to mature spiritually before expecting them to dive into something that even long time Catholics admit can be difficult. They should be able to approach the Faith in a manner which allows them to grow organically instead of being thrown into the deep end of the pool on their first day. Heck, the OP likened it to trying to learn advanced trig when they are still struggling with basic algebra. That ought to tell you and anyone else who is paying attention that they are not ready. That is all. Again, no one is telling them to ignore the teaching, people are simply telling them to take their time and reminding people who are brand new to the faith that such things are not required because all to often, private devotions such as this are presented as if they are essential to the Faith, and they are not.

De Montfort’s writings are some of the more challenging and nuanced, particularly for converts and potential converts. You might spend some time reading the forums and looking at other similar threads before responding in the manner that you have. If you do, you will see quickly that Marian devotion, particularly when taken to the level that de Montfort does, is one of the most commonly asked questions and sources of discomfort for those looking to come into the Church. Telling people who are in such circumstances that various popes have supported it or that you happen to like it does not alleviate their situation at all.

Finally, people are steering the OP to the Catechism, Fulton Sheen’s book, Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, or the book on the Church Fathers and Mary because they represent are more complete and dogmatic description of what one, as a Catholic, needs to believe and accept regarding Marian doctrine. The OP can come into the Church, be a completely faithful Catholic, and never read a shred of de Montfort.

Thanks for this post. You represent me well, and other people that I know, both cradle Catholics and convert Catholics ho are uneasy with some forms of marian devotion.

For me personally one of the things that has most damaged my path of getting to know Mary - and has even disturbed me in my peace as a Catholic - is the felt or imagined pressure from some people that I should engage in devotions to Mary that my heart is not in or that I am wary of.
My issue is not with the doctrine, nor the intention of those that pray the Montfort prayers, its with the form and wording in such prayers and songs.

In my oppinion it makes no sense at all to know Mary if one does not first and primarily know Christ. Yet some people speak of marian devotion as though its essential to salvation. It is not.

When I pray a prayer I want to be able to fully stand to my own words, and not take chances. The cost is way too high. I will stand alone infront of the Lord on day and give an account of every word. Not the Church nor Montfort will stand there in my place, but I alone.

What was for Montfort maybe a good kind of devotion could be for another a source of temptation if used wrongly, eg as though Mary was our hope instead of Christ, or Mary saved us, was a mediater between us and Christ, more merciful than him, and other such things which come through many private revelations. Its interesting that Luther precisely distanced himself from devotions to saints because he felt many of his comtemporaries “hoped for graces and gifts from saints instead of from God”. If we trust a creature to be more merciful and generous than Jesus Christ, then that cannot be in any way perfect.

 

[kmuestwin]

To the OP:

[RANT]

To cradle Catholics and/or those with a hefty Marian devotion:

Please, stop recommending saints like Monfort, the Little Flower, etc. to potential converts or those in RCIA. It all too often leads to confusion and doubt and while I know the attempt is to be helpful, more often then not, it isn’t. A better tactic would be to discuss Mary in the manner in which the Catechism does. In fact, the US Catechism is even more clear on her than the Universal Catechism, which I suppose makes sense since the Universal Catechism is designed for Bishops, etc. In my RCIA class we had approx. 25 people. 90% of us talked openly that Mary was one if not the, biggest stumbling blocks to our conversion to the Faith. If you doubt the veracity of my claims, check the number of threads started by new converts or potential converts on Mary. All too often, they discuss something very similar to what the OP did in this thread. In trying to be helpful and share the fullness of the Faith, many people are being hurt more than they are being helped.

[/RANT]

I disagree.

It’s all about how willing you as an instructor are to field one-on-one questions about Marian devotion. If you teach and talk to the person, it is fine. If you give them the book and then say “That’s all you need to read,” then you’ve only confused them. I always introduce it after we’ve gone through most of the catechism. After a person understands the concept of Marian devotion, it is important to help them put that practice into action.

I may be biased because I normally make rosaries for all our candidates (I didn’t this year because finals got to me first) and I believe that Mary is the greatest example a person can follow.

Does it take time and effort to explain? Of course. Is it worth it? Absolutely.

 

[Brooklyn]

De Montfort and Brooklyn, I appreciate what both of you have had to say and that you took the time to say anything at all. That said, however, I sincerely find your approaches to be a bit too bracing for a timid beginner and dabbler such as myself; and when it comes to recommendation, I ask only that you pray much for prudence in directing newcomers to the Catholic faith as there is much in St. Louis’s writings that converts–Especially those from protestantism, and gnostics–will find to be indigestible when starting out. Different paths to understanding must be prescribed to different minds as each of us is ailed and lacking in different ways.

To all others, again, I thank you too.

I sincerely apologize if I have offended you in any way. That most certainly was not my intention. I remember reading on another thread that veneration of Mary comes very naturally for those of us born in the Catholic faith, and I for one, I guess, don’t fully appreciate how daunting this concept can be for others. I do hope you will continue in your journey and come to the saving love of our Lord. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[Brooklyn]

Thanks for this post. You represent me well, and other people that I know, both cradle Catholics and convert Catholics ho are uneasy with some forms of marian devotion.

For me personally one of the things that has most damaged my path of getting to know Mary - and has even disturbed me in my peace as a Catholic - is the felt or imagined pressure from some people that I should engage in devotions to Mary that my heart is not in or that I am wary of.
My issue is not with the doctrine, nor the intention of those that pray the Montfort prayers, its with the form and wording in such prayers and songs.

In my oppinion it makes no sense at all to know Mary if one does not first and primarily know Christ. Yet some people speak of marian devotion as though its essential to salvation. It is not.

When I pray a prayer I want to be able to fully stand to my own words, and not take chances. The cost is way too high. I will stand alone infront of the Lord on day and give an account of every word. Not the Church nor Montfort will stand there in my place, but I alone.

What was for Montfort maybe a good kind of devotion could be for another a source of temptation if used wrongly, eg as though Mary was our hope instead of Christ, or Mary saved us, was a mediater between us and Christ, more merciful than him, and other such things which come through many private revelations. Its interesting that Luther precisely distanced himself from devotions to saints because he felt many of his comtemporaries “hoped for graces and gifts from saints instead of from God”. If we trust a creature to be more merciful and generous than Jesus Christ, then that cannot be in any way perfect.

The one comment I would like to make to this is that as a Protestant, I am sure you were familiar with the concept of intercessory prayer. As James 5:16 says, the prayer of a righteous man avails much. I am sure that you prayed for others and they prayed for you. Although I was baptized Catholic, I spent most of my adult life in the Protestant world, and I know that intercessory prayer was a very important concept for me.

Well, that is basically what veneration to Mary is all about. We ask Mary, as the Mother of God, to intercede for us before the throne of God. As the mother of Christ and as the most perfect creation of God, her prayer carries more weight and is more effective than any other prayer can be. All mercy and all graces come only from God, not from Mary or any other part of God’s creation. We trust Mary because her will is and always was in perfect aligment with our Lord because she was never stained by ain. That cannot be said of any other human being.

I am interested in your reaction to St. Louis de Montfort’s statement that all graces come through Mary (and please note the word “through”, which is very different than the word “from”). The reason de Monfort says this is because Jesus physically came to this earth through Mary, and therefore all his graces come through her. Again, Christ’s graces are not from Mary, but come to us through Mary. Does that make sense at all?

One other comment I would like to make is that I think it is a relatively new phenomenon in the Church that anyone born in the Catholic faith has trouble with the concept of veneration of Mary. I think some have always had stronger devotion to Mary than others, but as a child back in the 60’s, I don’t remember anyone in the Church ever questioning devotion to Mary.

 

[Brooklyn]

When I pray a prayer I want to be able to fully stand to my own words, and not take chances. The cost is way too high. I will stand alone infront of the Lord on day and give an account of every word. Not the Church nor Montfort will stand there in my place, but I alone.

I thought more about your post, and I wanted to make one more comment here. As Catholics, we believe that we must be completely perfect and totally without sin to enter into heaven. That is why we place so much emphasis on suffering, because suffering purges us of the sin that, as the Apostle Paul said, “so easily besets us.” I think Protestants have more of a view of their sin being covered by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That certainly is true while we are here on earth. But God is a God of complete perfection and beauty, and to be in His presence, we must be as perfect as He is, just as Christ told us in Matt. 5:48. Therein is the mercy of purgatory, a place for those of us who, while not separated from God by mortal sin, are still not entirely cleansed of sin and imperfection.

My point is that when you stand before God about to enter into heaven, you will at that point have nothing to answer for because it will have all been purged away, either by suffering on this earth or suffering in purgatory. Therefore, at that point, you will no longer need anyone to intercede for you, not even Jesus Christ, because you will no longer be infected by sin. You will hear only the words, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. The ones who will have to give account of themselves are those whose sins have not been purged, and they will not be allowed into the presence of God.

But right now, as sinners on this earth, we need all the help and all the intercession we can get. And that is where the Blessed Mother of God comes in, interceding for us before the throne of her Son.

 

[GraceDK]

The one comment I would like to make to this is that as a Protestant, I am sure you were familiar with the concept of intercessory prayer. As James 5:16 says, the prayer of a righteous man avails much.

** Hi Brooklyn. I agree. As I said I have no problem with binding Church teaching, dogma and doctrine on Mary. However, if you spent much time in Protestantism you will realize that Protestants never ask intercession from anyone who has passed on, they don’t use worship-like language for any creature, and they firmly believe in the fact that Jesus is the saviour of all and without him we are absolutely doomed. I sometimes explained to my Protestant friends the teachings on Mary. They saw them as making sense, but they had no motivation to start praying to her all the same, and frankly I didn’t think it was necessary for them. They often had so much faith in the love and power of Christ and he blessed their faith. To suggest that God might bless them more if not they, but someone better and more worthy would pray for them… well, I would be ashamed to utter such a thing. Jesus says: The one who has a faith the size of a mustard seed can cast a mountain into the sea… yet you wanna make it about level of holiness…? Sometimes I have to say, no wonder that many Catholics are so passive. They are being told they are not worthy to pray, not pure, not righteous … but the Bible says: God has no favourites (sorry if anyone was dissapointed **

Well, that is basically what veneration to Mary is all about. We ask Mary, as the Mother of God, to intercede for us before the throne of God.

**I have no problem with veneration to Mary. However, its not something that one needs to be pleasing to God. When we read the eye-witness accounts of the apostles we don’t see them asking for Mary’s intercession. Neither have I found it in the earliest church fathers. Its good and useful then, but not a must. **

As the mother of Christ and as the most perfect creation of God, her prayer carries more weight and is more effective than any other prayer can be.

Please understand that God wants a relationshipship with you personally. He has taken your sin and washed you white as snow. If you are in Christ HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS has become your own. Have you accepted that? Have you accepted the cleansing Blood of Christ which is a direct gift, given for you. Paul says: "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and** are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus**. ". Jesus wants a personal relationship with you… He has a seperate relationship with his Mother. He wishes you to come to Him. To trust Him for everything you need. Are you a father? Would you wish for your children’s mother to come and ask for blessings, or would it glorify you and exult your love more if they trusted to come to you directly?

All mercy and all graces come only from God, not from Mary or any other part of God’s creation.

Indeed.

We trust Mary because her will is and always was in perfect aligment with our Lord because she was never stained by ain. That cannot be said of any other human being.

True… But if you meet Protestants they will say: Mary was one of the great Biblical women… But they will then carry on with their prayer and worship to God. There is SO much to work on when it comes to getting to know the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Do you have a personal relationship with all 3 of them? Christ has become human in all things except for sin. He intimately knows you more than anyone in the entire universe because he has born your every sin up on the cross. Mary did not carry your sins. She is privileged for sure… But please dont think she is in any way as close to you as Jesus Christ.

I am interested in your reaction to St. Louis de Montfort’s statement that all graces come through Mary (and please note the word “through”, which is very different than the word “from”).

Its a manner of speaking… You can always ask what came first. Jesus made himself depend on the Jewish people, on Abraham, on Anna and Joachim, on Joseph and on Mary, but all graces come primarily from God. He created Mary and saved her from sin. She is a receiver of the gift of the Messiah and through Him alone did she become holy. So in order for clarity I prefer when such statements like that of Monfort do not stand alone. I think they can cause confusion.

One other comment I would like to make is that I think it is a relatively new phenomenon in the Church that anyone born in the Catholic faith has trouble with the concept of veneration of Mary. I think some have always had stronger devotion to Mary than others, but as a child back in the 60’s, I don’t remember anyone in the Church ever questioning devotion to Mary.

I wouldn’t know. I wasn’t born back then. However, as I said I have friends who also think it can become extreme, and these are raised Catholic. I heard a testimony from a priest who had fallen in the Spirit and seen the virgin Mary appear to him. She said: focus on my son and read the Bible. Why? The priest loved Mary ardently but had’nt got a relationship with the 3 Persons of the Trinity. Such people exist. Mary and the Saints are gifts and role models, but everything good they have comes from God, and if one starts to trust a saint more than Jesus, I think something went wrong.

 

[GraceDK]

I thought more about your post, and I wanted to make one more comment here. As Catholics, we believe that we must be completely perfect and totally without sin to enter into heaven. That is why we place so much emphasis on suffering, because suffering purges us of the sin that, as the Apostle Paul said, “so easily besets us.”

Whether you suffer or not, the only washing of sin comes through the suffering of Christ. This power of His death for your sins might be released in your life through your own obedient suffering… but its still his death that cleanses you from sin. Whether you live in peace and prosperity or in affliction and pain you Jesus Christ saves you if you believe in Him, get baptised and carry the fruit of repentance. Suffering in itself is not sanctifying… which you know if you see people who suffer. Often they are crippled and bitter, even at God. Its to our shame as Christian churches that we have too little faith and repentance to heal the most of the sick, like Jesus showed us through His example.

My point is that when you stand before God about to enter into heaven, you will at that point have nothing to answer for because it will have all been purged away, either by suffering on this earth or suffering in purgatory.

It seems you believe in a Gospel of personal suffering ? How is that. Do you read the Gospels on a regular basis?

Therefore, at that point, you will no longer need anyone to intercede for you, not even Jesus Christ, because you will no longer be infected by sin. You will hear only the words, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. The ones who will have to give account of themselves are those whose sins have not been purged, and they will not be allowed into the presence of God.
But right now, as sinners on this earth, we need all the help and all the intercession we can get. And that is where the Blessed Mother of God comes in, interceding for us before the throne of her Son.

Now we come to the core of the issue. You believe that I am dependant on Marian devotion to get into heaven? If you do, please just tell me. I do not believe in that. Neither do I believe you represent the Catholic stance. Christ promised: I am with you all the days of your life. Indeed, he is closer to you this very moment than your own breath, and the Spirit intercedes for your inside of you crying Abba Father. He is the vivifyer. Do you believe this, brother?

 

[GraceDK]

The one comment I would like to make to this is that as a Protestant, I am sure you were familiar with the concept of intercessory prayer. As James 5:16 says, the prayer of a righteous man avails much. I am sure that you prayed for others and they prayed for you. Although I was baptized Catholic, I spent most of my adult life in the Protestant world, and I know that intercessory prayer was a very important concept for me.

Well, that is basically what veneration to Mary is all about. We ask Mary, as the Mother of God, to intercede for us before the throne of God. As the mother of Christ and as the most perfect creation of God, her prayer carries more weight and is more effective than any other prayer can be. All mercy and all graces come only from God, not from Mary or any other part of God’s creation. We trust Mary because her will is and always was in perfect aligment with our Lord because she was never stained by ain. That cannot be said of any other human being.

I am interested in your reaction to St. Louis de Montfort’s statement that all graces come through Mary (and please note the word “through”, which is very different than the word “from”). The reason de Monfort says this is because Jesus physically came to this earth through Mary, and therefore all his graces come through her. Again, Christ’s graces are not from Mary, but come to us through Mary. Does that make sense at all?

One other comment I would like to make is that I think it is a relatively new phenomenon in the Church that anyone born in the Catholic faith has trouble with the concept of veneration of Mary. I think some have always had stronger devotion to Mary than others, but as a child back in the 60’s, I don’t remember anyone in the Church ever questioning devotion to Mary.

Hi Brooklyn, I have posted two thought through longer posts today to you about this topic on this thread. As I now came back from work, I see that they have been deleted for some reason, maybe due to technical errors. …

 

[jwinch2]

Thanks for this post. You represent me well, and other people that I know, both cradle Catholics and convert Catholics ho are uneasy with some forms of marian devotion.

You are welcome. Having gone through the same thing, I understand completely where you are coming from. I can only say that if you take things slowly and keep your heart and mind open, it does get easier and you will begin to see Mary in a different light. I again recommend the book I linked above on the Church Fathers and Mary as well as Archbishop Sheen’s excellent book. I also suggest that you find some writings on the role of the “queen mother” in the Davidic Kingdom of the Old Testament. That helped me greatly in seeing Mary’s role. The “Reader’s Digest” version is that the queen mother had no real power of her own, but because custom dictated that the king would not refuse any of her sincere requests, people would often seek her intercession or assistance when they wanted something from the king. If the request was worthy, she would then ask the king who would not refuse her. We can see Mary in the same way. She has only the power that is allotted to her by God. Christ, the true king and the true heir to the throne of David, is pleased to grant her requests. There is more to the story, but that might help a bit. At least I hope so.

In my oppinion it makes no sense at all to know Mary if one does not first and primarily know Christ. Yet some people speak of marian devotion as though its essential to salvation. It is not.

Agreed, to a point. In the Catholic Church, there is a certain amount of Marian doctrine that one must agree with to be within the Church. Having said that, the Church does not regulate private prayer so you are not forced to pray to or personally venerate Mary when at home, etc. However, she certainly should not be ignored. She is the greatest of all saints and a powerful intercessor and protector. She is the mother of God and the Queen of Heaven. She is the New Eve and the vessel that the Father chose to use in order to send his eternal Word into the world.

When I pray a prayer I want to be able to fully stand to my own words, and not take chances. The cost is way too high. I will stand alone infront of the Lord on day and give an account of every word. Not the Church nor Montfort will stand there in my place, but I alone.

We do have to remember that the Church was given the power to bind and loose by Christ personally. She will always stand with us, whether we are talking about the Church triumphant, militant, or penitent. Will we be judged? Of course, but we will also have the powerful prayers of the Church when we are. We will also have the communion of saints, to include Mary and even de Montfort on our side. We should not discount this.

What was for Montfort maybe a good kind of devotion could be for another a source of temptation if used wrongly, eg as though Mary was our hope instead of Christ, or Mary saved us, was a mediater between us and Christ, more merciful than him, and other such things which come through many private revelations. Its interesting that Luther precisely distanced himself from devotions to saints because he felt many of his comtemporaries “hoped for graces and gifts from saints instead of from God”. If we trust a creature to be more merciful and generous than Jesus Christ, then that cannot be in any way perfect.

When understood properly and with someone who is spiritually ready, de Montfort’s writings are completely sound and faithful to the Tradition of the Church. Luther did not distance himself from devotion to saints. In fact, even the earliest King James Bibles had all of the feast days of the saints included. The Communion of Saints is Church doctrine and thus, anyone who is going to be Catholic must accept this belief. Again, see the relationship between the Queen Mother and the King in the Davidic Kingdom of the Old Testament and you will get much clearer picture of Mary’s role in our world today.

Hopefully some of this is helpful and does not come across the wrong way (e.g. condescending, etc. )

Peace,

 

[GraceDK]

You are welcome. Having gone through the same thing

Through what exactly? What is it that you think I’m going through?

, I understand completely where you are coming from. I can only say that if you take things slowly and keep your heart and mind open, it does get easier and you will begin to see Mary in a different light.

A different light than what? I really don’t know what you mean.

I again recommend the book I linked above on the Church Fathers and Mary as well as Archbishop Sheen’s excellent book.

Im right now working on getting a more disciplined relationship with the Bible. Its the inspired word of God. I can give you some other titles too that inspires me to have a closer relationship with Christ. Could you give me some titles about the Father and The Holy Spirit… you see I always loved Jesus, He was always there, even when I was in my darkest hours, but I lack a lot when it comes to the two other Person’s in the Trinity.

I also suggest that you find some writings on the role of the “queen mother” in the Davidic Kingdom of the Old Testament. That helped me greatly in seeing Mary’s role. The “Reader’s Digest” version is that the queen mother had no real power of her own, but because custom dictated that the king would not refuse any of her sincere requests, people would often seek her intercession or assistance when they wanted something from the king. If the request was worthy, she would then ask the king who would not refuse her. We can see Mary in the same way. She has only the power that is allotted to her by God. Christ, the true king and the true heir to the throne of David, is pleased to grant her requests. There is more to the story, but that might help a bit. At least I hope so.

Jason, I have heard that symbol used many times about the queen mother etc. In the beginning I thought it was a grand parrallel. Now I don’t really anymore. I don’t see the big prophetic element in it anymore. The argument is rather thin…

Agreed, to a point. In the Catholic Church, there is a certain amount of Marian doctrine that one must agree with to be within the Church. Having said that, the Church does not regulate private prayer so you are not forced to pray to or personally venerate Mary when at home, etc. However, she certainly should not be ignored. She is the greatest of all saints and a powerful intercessor and protector. She is the mother of God and the Queen of Heaven. She is the New Eve and the vessel that the Father chose to use in order to send his eternal Word into the world.

Who ever talked about ignoring her? Thats not the issue here at all

We do have to remember that the Church was given the power to bind and loose by Christ personally. She will always stand with us, whether we are talking about the Church triumphant, militant, or penitent. Will we be judged? Of course, but we will also have the powerful prayers of the Church when we are. We will also have the communion of saints, to include Mary and even de Montfort on our side. We should not discount this.

**True but then the book of a saint is not the inspired word of God. There can be exaggerations or false statements in their books. What is more, they can be used ill. Like some people abuse the Bible although its the highest writing of all… so people can use the words of saints and actually start to worship creatures. How do you worship a creature? Well, you expect everything from them, you hope for salvation from them, you glorify them where you should have glorified God the true Giver of life. You bear offerings and sacrifices to that person or thing. Indeed if there is such a thing as idolatry, should we not be very careful that we never commit that sin? A Catholic friend of mine once told me:" I used to sit and cry to Mary: have mercy on me. The Lord showed me this was wrong and I repented from it." **

When understood properly and with someone who is spiritually ready, de Montfort’s writings are completely sound and faithful to the Tradition of the Church.

**I believe I and my friends are not lower on spiritual readiness than you because we might never feel at ease with that devotion… **

Luther did not distance himself from devotion to saints. In fact, even the earliest King James Bibles had all of the feast days of the saints included. The Communion of Saints is Church doctrine and thus, anyone who is going to be Catholic must accept this belief. Again, see the relationship between the Queen Mother and the King in the Davidic Kingdom of the Old Testament and you will get much clearer picture of Mary’s role in our world today.

**Luther did actually. I know that because I have actually read his writings instead of only listening to EWTN I used to be a Lutheran **

Hopefully some of this is helpful and does not come across the wrong way (e.g. condescending, etc. )

A bit condescending I think. But we all do our best. You think your way is most fantastic. I think another way is more fantastic, or I would do the things you say and read the books you recommend… But you see, I have read soo much apologetics in the past… and I also have the montfort book. Thank God we are part of the Catholic Church and there are room for different spriitualities as long as they, without competition, lead to the focus and worship of God .

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

GraceDK:
I’ve read Luther as well, just so you know. I spent a good deal of time looking into other faith traditions prior to becoming Catholic. Also, I don’t follow de Montfort’s practices at all, which I have been pretty clear about throughout this thread. As for the rest, I am not sure where you are coming from. You indicated you had some issue with de Montfort and Marian devotion in general, and you also stated that I captured your thoughts perfectly in another post. That is what I meant when I said that “i understood what you are going through”. I am in the same boat. Marian devotion when taken to the level of de Montfort makes me uncomfortable and I am in no way ready for it. If I misunderstood your statement, I apologize.

 

[TimothyH]

The Mother of the Lord, for us who have embraced her love without reservation, has led us, and continues to lead us to her Son. For us it is that simple.

Nobody hates anyone, or thinks that they are less of a Christian for it, or that they are stupid, or less mature in their faith, or less Catholic, or are not going to heaven.

We who have been led to Jesus by the Mother of Jesus simply testify to what we know, and what we have experienced, that after many struggles and much hardship, Mary was and is able to lead us to Jesus better than we are ourselves. To us, it is like having an experienced guide directing us every step.

It’s like anything else in the Christian life, you have to have faith in something which is invisible. You have to make a concious decision to believe in something that you will never be absolutely sure of until you act on that belief, until you have stepped out into a chasm of unknowing, like taking a step off a cliff, trusting that God will catch you.

We only wish you to experience what we have experienced. A mother’s love knows no limits, and we only wish for everyone to experience what we have. You don’t have to, but we would love it if you did.

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

GraceDK:
Grace,

I’m sure Jason does not in any way want or mean to be condescending.

I do see where you are going with this, and I think that your questions are good questions for the Apologetics forum, not for this one. I for one would love to hear more about your viewpoint, as I remember you were very helpful to me in the “old days”.

 

[Safia]

MJ, I beg of you to read The Life of Mary by Raphael Brown. Please, please, PLEASE read it. It will change your life, one, and it will make everything you have ever known or read about Mary crystallize into perfect understanding, two. Here’s the Amazon link.

God bless!

 

[GraceDK]

The Mother of the Lord, for us who have embraced her love without reservation, has led us, and continues to lead us to her Son. For us it is that simple.

Nobody hates anyone, or thinks that they are less of a Christian for it, or that they are stupid, or less mature in their faith, or less Catholic, or are not going to heaven.

We who have been led to Jesus by the Mother of Jesus simply testify to what we know, and what we have experienced, that after many struggles and much hardship, Mary was and is able to lead us to Jesus better than we are ourselves. To us, it is like having an experienced guide directing us every step.

It’s like anything else in the Christian life, you have to have faith in something which is invisible. You have to make a concious decision to believe in something that you will never be absolutely sure of until you act on that belief, until you have stepped out into a chasm of unknowing, like taking a step off a cliff, trusting that God will catch you.

We only wish you to experience what we have experienced. A mother’s love knows no limits, and we only wish for everyone to experience what we have. You don’t have to, but we would love it if you did.

-Tim-

Yet I can’t help but think I am more privileged because it was Jesus Christ himself that led me from the beginning and still does. He is the one to introduce me to other believers and things of this world. Jesus showed me His Mother after I had met Him. I am sure that meeting Mary without Jesus would have made little sense. Somehow I think Paul is right when he says that everything is nothing compared to knowing Christ.
Have you experienced the limitless love of Jesus? Have you experienced the limitless love of His Father? Have you experienced the limitless love of the Holy Spirit intimately? If you have that experience then I will envy you with a fiery holy envy. Im sorry to disappoint you if I say I don’t feel called at this moment to focus on other persons but God… indeed I would feel it was a distraction seeing as I do that I have come such a little way in getting to know the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, not to mention eating the Word of God in the Bible. There are many riches in the Kingdom, and surely Mary is one, but its the Holy Spirit who reveals Christ to us and convicts us of sin so we can repent, believe and have eternal life, as Scripture clearly tells us.

 

[GraceDK]

I’ve read Luther as well, just so you know. I spent a good deal of time looking into other faith traditions prior to becoming Catholic. Also, I don’t follow de Montfort’s practices at all, which I have been pretty clear about throughout this thread. As for the rest, I am not sure where you are coming from. You indicated you had some issue with de Montfort and Marian devotion in general, and you also stated that I captured your thoughts perfectly in another post. That is what I meant when I said that “i understood what you are going through”. I am in the same boat. Marian devotion when taken to the level of de Montfort makes me uncomfortable and I am in no way ready for it. If I misunderstood your statement, I apologize.

Good. He was a very talented theologian. I especially loved his meditations on Paul’s letter to the Romans. Did you read it? Maybe you read some of his earlier writings about saints, for what I read was very on the guard.
Im sorry if I misunderstood you. It just seemed that you implied Marian devotion was for those who had reached a higher level of holiness or that one had a closed mind if one was not into these devotions. I’m sorry if I put words into your mouth. You keep utilising the word “ready” when talking about these devotions though, as though you feel you should one day pray these prayers. Maybe I read too much into your words, but I am not longing for any readiness. I long to love Jesus more, to know him… to know his will for me, you see. If I come to visit the wisest man in the universe, the very essense of love, and Im shown into another room to speak with a servant of his, I will be disapointed. Maybe I lack humility.
The great philosopher said: Its a false love and humility that asks for the left hand, the true love and humility will demand the right. The same with a Father’s love. Nothing can replace or compare to it.

Friends?

 

[jwinch2]

Im sorry if I misunderstood you. It just seemed that you implied Marian devotion was for those who had reached a higher level of holiness or that one had a closed mind if one was not into these devotions. I’m sorry if I put words into your mouth. You keep utilising the word “ready” when talking about these devotions though, as though you feel you should one day pray these prayers.

No problem. Looking back at my words I can see how what I wrote could be interpreted that way easily. I should have been more clear. If you have seen anything I have written here on CAF in the past regarding Mary you would know that I get very uncomfortable with what I feel is excessive Marian devotion. Heck, I had someone accuse me of hating our Blessed Mother once because I disagreed with their interpretation of a Bonaventure quote stating that Mary was the doorway to Heaven, or something along those lines.

In using the term “ready”, I was trying to be sensitive to those who find the writings of de Montfort to speak to them and to be a path which they can follow to holiness. In addition, I was putting it into the context of the OP who seemed to feel that he/she had been thrust into de Montfort’s readings too soon. I guess when I said “ready” I did not mean more or less advanced spiritually, I mean having the level of understanding of Mary and feeling that you are called to that level of devotion to her. Frankly, I doubt I will ever be “ready” for that either using that criteria. I have seen several situations here on CAF where a brand new Catholic or a potential convert gets thrown into de Montfort or the Little Flower without being properly prepared, catechized, and comfortable with the Catholic faith and it really turns them off. I got the impression that you might have been in such a situation, and I guess I misunderstood.

Sorry again for not being more clear in my statements.

Peace, and God Bless.