St. Louie's Mariology

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MJDorry said:
Hello, I’m new here and will really only be on to ask questions regarding Catholic faith. I’m working my way slowly into Catholicism and trying to understand certain aspects of Catholic spirituality.

One that continues to trip me up even though I’ve been given good explanations is Marian devotion. I understand her significance as the mother of God (thus making her our mother too) and as a stainless human, and how it is beneficial to us to pray to her that she pray for us. That said, however, a friend of mine allowed me to borrow his copy of Louis De Montfort’s “The Secret of Mary” and reading it leaves me very confused and frustrated.

Louis, having been a primary influence, if not the primary influence, in the Church’s current Mariology, seems to take Marian devotion to an exceeding level and while he occasionally reminds the reader that this is really about communion with Christ, it seems to me that he really is strictly devoted to Mary and simply uses Christ as a means of not sounding heretical.

At least, that’s my current understanding. I am very uneducated in this area of Catholic spirituality and I was brought up to essentially always address Christ directly, as I strongly believe he is the medium and not that there is some medium between Him and us. I seems to me that Louis De Montfort very much treats Mary like she is the only true way to Christ that our lives ought to be about Mary all the time, but this seems to me to be very unsound.

If someone could clear this up for me and at the same time offer me a deeper understanding of how Marian devotion is truly an essential element in our spirituality, I would greatly appreciate it. I must honestly say that I wasn’t merely frustrated, but outright furious reading some parts of the book. But I don’t know who’s right, I have only how I’ve been raised and how I’ve reasoned my spirituality.

And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I’ve prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries
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I’m also quite new to Catholicism, only being a Catholic for less than a year now, and a Protestant for a year or so before that. So I can empathize in confusion over Marian devotion.

Lately I’ve been reading True Devotion to Mary, another book by St. Montfort. Late last year I read Secret of the Rosary by this same author and was very put off by many of his analogies and examples, and considered them to be unhealthy for me as a beginning Catholic since they often held what seemed like heretical points of view, although I took for granted that it wasn’t heretical since it carried the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, and I was just an infant needing milk and trying to chew on meat.

Now, after having a much clearer understanding of many essential Catholic teachings of salvation, I decided to try this book, True Devotion to Mary, because I see the merit in asking our Blessed Mother to pray for us, and honoring her as Jesus honored her and still does in Heaven. So far I’ve only read the first chapter of this book, which I struggled to find a copy somewhere online which you could read, to no avail. It’s very enlightening on the principles backing this idea of devotion to Mary. I’ll try to summarize a few of his points, which helped me to not take offense at this doctrine, as best as I can remember them.

First of all, because of Mary’s excellence in virtues, especially humility, along with some other reasons in that chapter which I’ve forgotten, God chose to reward her. And since she only ever wills what God wills, it was no danger to allow her reward to be one of a certain degree of freedom and control, such as dispensing graces. And since she had a superabundance of graces due to her complete sinlessness, it seemed fitting for God to grant her every grace in Heaven, and not only that but also to be the distributor of all God’s graces to anyone on earth. It’s as if God had said, “Mary, because of your profound humility, and because you only will what I will, I want you to distribute my graces to all humankind however you see fit; they will only pass through your humble hands.” There’s more in this first chapter alone that very much set my mind at ease and allowed me to take no more offense at Montfort’s doctrines on Mary, and I recommend reading it. In fact it’s inspired me to move on the the second chapter (I just finished the first chapter last night).

Edit: I found a copy online of what appears to be if not the entire book True Devotion to Mary then at least a significant portion of it.
 
MJDorry said:
Hello, I’m new here and will really only be on to ask questions regarding Catholic faith. I’m working my way slowly into Catholicism and trying to understand certain aspects of Catholic spirituality.

One that continues to trip me up even though I’ve been given good explanations is Marian devotion. I understand her significance as the mother of God (thus making her our mother too) and as a stainless human, and how it is beneficial to us to pray to her that she pray for us. That said, however, a friend of mine allowed me to borrow his copy of Louis De Montfort’s “The Secret of Mary” and reading it leaves me very confused and frustrated.

Louis, having been a primary influence, if not the primary influence, in the Church’s current Mariology, seems to take Marian devotion to an exceeding level and while he occasionally reminds the reader that this is really about communion with Christ, it seems to me that he really is strictly devoted to Mary and simply uses Christ as a means of not sounding heretical.

At least, that’s my current understanding. I am very uneducated in this area of Catholic spirituality and I was brought up to essentially always address Christ directly, as I strongly believe he is the medium and not that there is some medium between Him and us. I seems to me that Louis De Montfort very much treats Mary like she is the only true way to Christ that our lives ought to be about Mary all the time, but this seems to me to be very unsound.

If someone could clear this up for me and at the same time offer me a deeper understanding of how Marian devotion is truly an essential element in our spirituality, I would greatly appreciate it. I must honestly say that I wasn’t merely frustrated, but outright furious reading some parts of the book. But I don’t know who’s right, I have only how I’ve been raised and how I’ve reasoned my spirituality.

And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I’ve prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries
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Oops, I forgot to answer one of your basic questions in my reply to you just now:

As for devotion to Mary being a distraction from Jesus, I found that true at first but only because I was so hard-hearted. The more I think about it, the more I think of it like driving a nail through a wall. The nail is devotion, and the ultimate end is more security to God, and the more layers we drive the nail through, such as our guardian angel, our patron saints, other saints, Mary, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and finally the Father, the more secure our faith in God will be.

Whereas if we only had a devotion to the Trinity without any of the rest of the angels and saints through whom God grants us graces, not only would we be acting inconsiderate to God and His saints and angels, but we would not have as secure of a devotion to God, because being ignorant and ungrateful of all the parties involved in giving a gift to you never can lead to the fullness of love for the ultimate giver, because that same giver willed that these people be involved in the first place, and anything even slightly like contempt (including indifference or negligence) to them would be passed directly to the giver who would take offense.

In the same way, if I send my sister to give my friend a gift, and my friend told her to thank me but ignored her and gave her no thanks, my sister would feel mistreated and I would take offense. I think this is not a perfect analogy but at least the beginning of a deeper understanding which I hope we both come to.

However, I’m still struggling with this even within just the Trinity itself; often I find myself worshipping Jesus Christ the Son of God without thinking at all or paying any homage to God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. So to me this is incredibly tricky.
 
jwinch2 said:
I have seen several situations here on CAF where a brand new Catholic or a potential convert gets thrown into de Montfort or the Little Flower without being properly prepared, catechized, and comfortable with the Catholic faith and it really turns them off. I got the impression that you might have been in such a situation, and I guess I misunderstood.

Sorry again for not being more clear in my statements.

Peace, and God Bless.
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You are right… I have experienced some of that too. Maybe thats why I am a bit over-sensitive now. 😊

Please forgive me for that
 
GraceDK said:
Yet I can’t help but think I am more privileged because it was Jesus Christ himself that led me from the beginning and still does. He is the one to introduce me to other believers and things of this world. Jesus showed me His Mother after I had met Him. I am sure that meeting Mary without Jesus would have made little sense. Somehow I think Paul is right when he says that everything is nothing compared to knowing Christ.
Have you experienced the limitless love of Jesus? Have you experienced the limitless love of His Father? Have you experienced the limitless love of the Holy Spirit intimately? If you have that experience then I will envy you with a fiery holy envy. Im sorry to disappoint you if I say I don’t feel called at this moment to focus on other persons but God… indeed I would feel it was a distraction seeing as I do that I have come such a little way in getting to know the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, not to mention eating the Word of God in the Bible. There are many riches in the Kingdom, and surely Mary is one, but its the Holy Spirit who reveals Christ to us and convicts us of sin so we can repent, believe and have eternal life, as Scripture clearly tells us.
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The greatest love of my life is and will always be Jesus. You can rest assured of that.

The early desert fathers had a very different understnding of what it means to have “knowledge of God” and “Knowledge of Jesus Christ.” To them, knowledge was not book knowledge or intellectual knowledge as we use the word today, but gnosis, a knowledge that can only come through direct contact and intimate experience, like that of lovers.

I think Peter sums it up well

***His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him *who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:3-4)

Paul speaks of partaking. Hebrews speaks of those “who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit” and Peter again speaks of those who “have tasted the kindness of the Lord.”

I have tasted it myself, for extended periods of time, long before I came to know Mary. Yes, I have experienced it, gnosis, knowledge of God through direct and intimate contact, through experience. I am glad you have too. Sometimes like David, I sit before God and ask “How is it Lord, that you have done these things for me?”

The greatest love of my life will always be Jesus, and the second greatest love of my life is Mary, and Mary is never without Jesus. For me it is not a focus on Mary to the exclusion of Jesus, or a distraction. I understand that it might be for some, but for me Mary magnifies Jesus.

My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior;
(Luke 1:46-4)

I’m sorry if some have come across as if they are trying to convert you or force you into something. I can only speak for myself, that I am simply sharing what I have. I’m sorry if my posts make anyone angry. I’m simply sharing my faith.

-Tim-
 
sdegutis said:
Whereas if we only had a devotion to the Trinity without any of the rest of the angels and saints through whom God grants us graces, not only would we be acting inconsiderate to God and His saints and angels, but we would not have as secure of a devotion to God, because being ignorant and ungrateful of all the parties involved in giving a gift to you never can lead to the fullness of love for the ultimate giver, because that same giver willed that these people be involved in the first place, and anything even slightly like contempt (including indifference or negligence) to them would be passed directly to the giver who would take offense.

.
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Hmmm interesting line of thought. I fail to see how you get to your conclusions. When I read the New Testament I get the feeling that Christ in his example, and all his first followers were strictly focused on God. They didn’t talk about devotions to angels and saints. Paul even warns against too much focus on angels. The writer of the New Testament realise the saints exist, but there is no hint of devotion to saints at the time in the style we now know.
Yet these people were crucified and stoned for their faith. Are you sure they were really “insecure in their devotion to God”, inconsiderate to God, ignorant or ungrateful" or earning his “offense” because they were so centred on him and being part of an extremely monotheistic culture…? Whatever rocks your boat… but I think you are wrong.
 
GraceDK said:
Hmmm interesting line of thought. I fail to see how you get to your conclusions. When I read the New Testament I get the feeling that Christ in his example, and all his first followers were strictly focused on God. They didn’t talk about devotions to angels and saints. Paul even warns against too much focus on angels. The writer of the New Testament realise the saints exist, but there is no hint of devotion to saints at the time in the style we now know.
Yet these people were crucified and stoned for their faith. Are you sure they were really “insecure in their devotion to God”, inconsiderate to God, ignorant or ungrateful" or earning his “offense” because they were so centred on him and being part of an extremely monotheistic culture…? Whatever rocks your boat… but I think you are wrong.
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Those who were with Christ were sanctified by that very fact, as Jesus himself told us somewhere in the Book of John. Everything about the Apostles then were basically first-degree relics, which we read all throughout the book of Acts, and these facts helped the sanctification for those early Christians more than sufficiently. In our time though we are in more need of sanctification and reminders of our call to holiness than they were, and devotion is a perfectly great way to achieve this. Anyway this is only my uneducated opinion and I could be very wrong, but I do find the evidence for it convincing enough for now.
 
sdegutis said:
Edit: I found a copy online of what appears to be if not the entire book True Devotion to Mary then at least a significant portion of it.
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For anyone doing the full consecration, I would suggest the version of True Devotion to Mary published by Tan Books.

I am told that this translation is the most accurate and it contains all the prayers, meditations and readings from Imitation of Christ which are used in preparation.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
For anyone doing the full consecration, I would suggest the version of True Devotion to Mary published by Tan Books.

I am told that this translation is the most accurate and it contains all the prayers, meditations and readings from Imitation of Christ which are used in preparation.

-Tim-
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Ah yes, this TAN-Classics version is the one I have. I highly recommend it too.

Speaking of which, can anyone point me to where I can learn what exactly “full consecration” is in terms of obligations? I’m interested in it if it’s something I can do while remaining a husband and father, but some vocations (such as joining a religious order) are not available to me because of my current vocation.
 
MJDorry said:
And I should clarify that on a personal level, I have a hard time imagining being able to engage in Marian devotion and at the same time have my mind ultimately turned toward Christ. I've prayed the Rosary on a few occasions and even though I intended to contemplate the mysteries, I found it almost impossible while reciting the Hail Maries
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Maybe this will help.

Christ first came to Mary, then He came to us. Mary is directly connected to Christ (in the womb, literally). God literally connected to the world in the flesh via the flesh of Blessed Mary - she is the conduit through which He entered all of our lives, but He entered her life first. The center of the Hail Mary prayer is the word Jesus, just as He was centered in her womb, then comes outward from her who surrounds Him as the words of the Hail Mary surround thw word Jesus; He comes outward first to her then to us - then through her, to us. But He can only come to us because of her YES to God, else He couldn’t come to the world and hence He couldn’t come to us individually. Hence the angel says Hail Mary, and we hail Mary for her YES too, for without her and her YES we have no Christ, we have no salvation, we have no New Testament. All of that, all of the remaking of the universe through Christ, begins with Mary’s YES (which we give a name to -we call it Mary’s ‘Fiat’).

Sounds like you are praying the rosary incorrectly - it is not simple recitation - when we say the rosary we are supposed to contemplate, to reflect upon each mystery of the rosary and how it relates to Christ.

It might help to better understand how the rosary relates to Christ if you add words about the mystery you are reflecting on after saying ‘…fruit of they womb, Jesus…’

For example, when reflecting on the Joyful Mystery of the Annunciation add the words as follows: - ‘…fruit of thy womb, Jesus - announced to Mary and the world by the angel Gabriel.’ The next 14 mysteries could have these words added after the word Jesus:

Jesus - greeting cousin John and aunt Elizabeth from the womb

Jesus - born through Mary to the world

Jesus - presented in the Temple in accordance to the Law of Moses

Jesus - found in His Father’s house

Jesus - agonizing over our sins in the garden

Jesus - scourged for our sins

Jesus - crowned as our King with the painful thorns of our sins

Jesus - carrying the cross for our sins

Jesus - nailed to the cross and died for our sins

Jesus - risen from the dead in Glory

Jesus - ascended to His Father and our Father

Jesus - Who sent us the Holy Spirit to guide us in Truth

Jesus - Who took His mother Mary to heaven

Jesus - Who crowned His mother Queen

Hope this helps.

God bless you!
 
sdegutis said:
Speaking of which, can anyone point me to where I can learn what exactly “full consecration” is in terms of obligations? I’m interested in it if it’s something I can do while remaining a husband and father, but some vocations (such as joining a religious order) are not available to me because of my current vocation.
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You may want to ask the Monfort Spiritual Association (where you register once with Mary Queen of All Hearts):

26 South Saxon Avenue, Bay Shore, NY 11706

Phone: 631.665.0726 Fax: 631.665.4349

of try this site: saintbenedict.com/
 
maltmom said:
As a new Catholic this is something that I’m still trying to learn. I’ve asked one of my closest friends how do you meditate on the mysteries while saying something else. He really didn’t have an answer other than you do. I guess it comes with practice.
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youtube.com/playlist?list=PL784E4033C996322D&feature=plcp

I find that praying the Rosary using these videos allows me to let the words fade away and focus on the mysteries of Christ. The images related to each mystery seem to help a great deal.

I hope that you find some use in them.

Peace,
 
sdegutis said:
Sorry, I meant: I won’t go to that website because they aren’t in union with the See of Rome, which I strive to be.
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I understand completely. That fact makes me uncomfortable as well. Its just that Fisheaters tends to be one of those hot button issues which, if the right person were to see such a statement, would lead to a meltdown and this thread being locked.

No worries on my end.

Peace,
 
GraceDK said:
Sooo funny:rotfl:

Back to serious business:
You say:
"I find that praying the Rosary using these videos allows me to let the words fade away and focus on the mysteries of Christ."

How do you know you are not “babbling like the heathens” which Jesus warned us of, at the time where He gave us the short compact prayer called “The Our Father” ?
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Good question. I should have been more specific.

I allow the words to fade to the background during the Hail Mary. Fr. Timothy Radcliffe, who was the previous master of the Dominican Order talked about the Rosary as a form of contemplative prayer towards the end of his book “Sing a New Song.” Its been a while since I read it, but if I remember correctly, he discussed how the words can fade away during the Hail Mary allowing for true contemplation on the mysteries of Christ.

Does that make more sense than what I wrote originally?

We also have to understand the difference between conscious and subconscious thought. It is very possible to do both at the same time. Take for example an athlete who runs a specific play in his/her sport. Consciously, they are thinking about running that specific play. Sub-consciously they are thinking “OK, I need to run 10 steps this way, watch out for that guy over there, turn, don’t commit a penalty while doing this, catch the ball, etc…”. People will try to explain this phenomenon as muscle memory or something along those lines. That is incorrect. It is really a situation where someone highly skilled is able to do things without focusing directly on them and even while focusing directly on something else. When Tiger Woods steps up and hits a golf ball he is consciously thinking to himself “OK, I need to hit this ball this distance, with a slide fade, and a bit of spin to land the ball in the middle of the green and feed it towards the hole”. Sub-consciously, he is thinking about all of the biomechanical things which need to happen in order to execute the shot properly.

Or, you could look at someone singing along with the radio while they drive. If it is a song that they know by heart, they can sing without thinking consciously about the words, rhythm, melody, etc. while they are driving. At the same time they are both singing the song and driving, the music may trigger a trip down memory lane about something they did while listening to this song, a former girlfriend/boyfriend, etc. Now we have three things happening simultaneously all at varying levels of conscious versus sub-conscious thought.

Have you ever had an answer to a question you had been wondering about suddenly pop into your head out of the blue even though you were not focusing directly on it? That is an example of the same phenomenon.

Finally, take praying the Hail Mary while focusing on the mysteries of Christ. One can easily happen in background while the conscious mind is focusing on the other. This of course is predicated on someone having prayed the Hail Mary enough that they are able to separate things in a conscious and sub-conscious way. Just as unskilled athletes have a tendency to focus on their internal mechanics instead of the goal of the movement, people who are new to the Rosary will likely have difficulty praying the Hail Mary at the same time they are contemplating the mysteries of Christ.

I hope that helps to explain my comments above.

Peace,
 
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