St. Patrick - Non-Catholic

[Eden]

I found this site which has a good example of how the Protestant churches revise history to maintain the illusion of legitimacy. Apparently some Protestants question whether or not St. Patrick was “Catholic” despite the fact that Protestantism was not invented until 1100 years later:

EXCERPT: So what about that claim that St. Patrick was not Catholic? Well, the Catholic church clearly believes he was, but some Protestant commentators claim he was not. Among the reasons for these claims are statements from Patrick’s writings that indicate he practiced, and preached, a fairly simple version of Christianity in Ireland—seemingly not a fully Romanized version. There is also some doubt about his parents’ status in the Church, and a suggestion that only centuries after his death did Rome decide to absorb his story into official Church history. On the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Patrick was indeed ordained as a priest in the Roman church before beginning his missionary work. But the bottom line is that reliable written records from that period are few and far between. The true nature of St. Patrick’s religious convictions, like so much else about his life, will probably never be known with complete certainty.

itotd.com/index.alt?ArticleID=491

 

[severinus]

Since Patrick was sent to complete Palladius’s mission from Rome, I don’t see how anyone could argue against Patrick’s Catholicism.

There are many reasons for the distinctive character of Irish Christianity, and for the subsequent controversy over the date of Easter; it is clear, however, that Irish Christianity was Catholic from its foundation.

 

[Eden]

Since Patrick was sent to complete Palladius’s mission from Rome, I don’t see how anyone could argue against Patrick’s Catholicism.

I just found this in the Catholic Answers library:

ST. PADDY WASN’T A PROTESTANT

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703prof.asp

I wrote to the author of the site in my post #1 and gave him the link to Jimmy Akins’ article above.

That site is a good example, as I mentioned, of how Protestants rewrite our history to promote their own claims of legitimacy. There was only one Christian Church in the 4th century and it was Catholic. What could anyone who claims otherwise be thinking? :banghead:

 

[RobHom]

One has but to remember that… a protestant who does not criticise or condemn Catholics or the Catholic Church…has no reason to be anything but a Catholic. The basic justification for most non-Catholic so called christian religions…is the condemnation, hatemongering and bashing of Catholics and the Church.

Sorry to be so blunt… but its a reality.

If you can cast aspersions and cause doubt in minds…then you have no need to “prove” anything… and it works for many of them, at least with the gullible who buy the line without thinking and investigating…

 

[Wolseley]

I counsel that they read Patrick’s autobiography in his own words, and then decide whether he was a Catholic or not.

There is a very good translation by Bishop Joseph Duffy available for less than $20.00, and can be ordered anywhere.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1853905259/qid=1126039866/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-2570028-6421630?v=glance&s=books

 

[Eden]

RobHom:

If you can cast aspersions and cause doubt in minds…then you have no need to “prove” anything… and it works for many of them, at least with the gullible who buy the line without thinking and investigating…

Very true. Casting aspersions and causing doubt has been very effective throughout Protestant history, hasn’t it?

 

[allhers]

Eden:

I just found this in the Catholic Answers library:

ST. PADDY WASN’T A PROTESTANT

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703prof.asp

I wrote to the author of the site in my post #1 and gave him the link to Jimmy Akins’ article above.

That site is a good example, as I mentioned, of how Protestants rewrite our history to promote their own claims of legitimacy. There was only one Christian Church in the 4th century and it was Catholic. What could anyone who claims otherwise be thinking? :banghead:

Good for you, I also bought a book, written by a Presentation Sister, a few years ago, Titled: “Patrick The Pilgrim Apostle of Ireland”. by Maire B. de Paor PBVM(Presentation of Blessed Virgin Mary)

She is a Irish Religious Scholar and a native of County Waterford, Ireland, – she has degrees from University College Dublin, Maynooth, and a doctorate from University College Cork. Previously, she published three other books on Gaelic Christianity.
St. Patrick not a Catholic (snort)

 

[Contarini]

RobHom:

One has but to remember that… a protestant who does not criticise or condemn Catholics or the Catholic Church…has no reason to be anything but a Catholic. The basic justification for most non-Catholic so called christian religions…is the condemnation, hatemongering and bashing of Catholics and the Church.

Sorry to be so blunt… but its a reality.

It isn’t. I and many other Protestants are Protestants because of the positive things we have received from our heritage, which we are unable to give up. It’s not a question of criticizing or condemning everyone. Your statement is pure fantasy, as is the claim you often hear from Catholics that the fullness of everything good found in other churches exists in Catholicism (this may be true from your point of view, but we can’t see it).

We have much to learn from Catholicism. We have no reason to condemn it in order to establish our legitimacy. We simply cannot condemn and reject our own heritage.

Edwin

 

[Eden]

allhers:

Good for you, I also bought a book, written by a Presentation Sister, a few years ago, Titled: “Patrick The Pilgrim Apostle of Ireland”. by Maire B. de Paor PBVM(Presentation of Blessed Virgin Mary)

She is a Irish Religious Scholar and a native of County Waterford, Ireland, – she has degrees from University College Dublin, Maynooth, and a doctorate from University College Cork. Previously, she published three other books on Gaelic Christianity.
St. Patrick not a Catholic (snort)

I know the book you mean! Sr. Maire B. de Paor appears in a film about St. Patrick that is distributed by the same company that brought us the movie “John Paul II: Making of the Man”. Here’s a link to the website about the St. Patrick move:

patricktv.tv/

The scenery is beautiful in the film and the story is moving. I have a particular devotion to St. Patrick after reading through Sr. Maire’s book and watching this film since it is through my Irish ancestors that I am Catholic. Basically, I’m Catholic because St. Patrick converted Ireland. Many of us can say the same.

Make sure to click on the links at that site to watch the trailer and also click on the link for the video montage.

 

[STIOFAN]

It has been said over here many times, that the Protestants gave Patrick up once Catholics had anything do do with him, (such faithfulness)

He was and is Catholic to me, if others believe he wasn’t, too bad, I don’t, and that’s their problem.

 

[Mystophilus]

RobHom:

One has but to remember that… a protestant who does not criticise or condemn Catholics or the Catholic Church…has no reason to be anything but a Catholic.

This is only true inasmuch as anyone who does not have anything against the Catholic Church has no reason not to be Catholic, just as anyone* who does not have anything against Buddhism* has no reason not to be Buddhist.

Most people who are Protestants do not change to Catholicism because they have no particular reason to change. For some, this is because they believe in certain Protestant doctrines, such as sola scriptura. For a few, such as myself, this is because they cannot believe in certain Catholic doctrines, such as ecclesiastical infallibility. For others, it is because they grew up Protestant, and Protestantism is part of their self-identity. They could no more abandon that than their gender.

The basic justification for most non-Catholic so called christian religions…is the condemnation, hatemongering and bashing of Catholics and the Church.

Actually, the basic justification * for most Protestant denominations only references other Protestant denominations, and ignores the Catholic Church entirely. This justification is typically on a sola scriptura basis, and involves the claim that the other churches misinterpret Scripture and so a new church, which interprets Scripture correctly, must be formed.

Do not forget that Catholics are a minority in the English-speaking world, and that, for most people in those cultures, the idea of being Catholic simply never crosses their mind.*

 

[Shiann]

Mystophilus:

Do not forget that Catholics are a minority in the English-speaking world, and that, for most people in those cultures, the idea of being Catholic simply never crosses their mind.

Only if you group the non-Catholic religions together against Catholicism rather than each denomination against Catholicsm…

Let’s be clear…

 

[Eden]

Mystophilus:

This is only true inasmuch as anyone who does not have anything against the Catholic Church has no reason not to be Catholic, just as anyone* who does not have anything against Buddhism* has no reason not to be Buddhist.

Most people who are Protestants do not change to Catholicism because they have no particular reason to change. For some, this is because they believe in certain Protestant doctrines, such as sola scriptura. For a few, such as myself, this is because they cannot believe in certain Catholic doctrines, such as ecclesiastical infallibility. For others, it is because they grew up Protestant, and Protestantism is part of their self-identity. They could no more abandon that than their gender.

Actually, the basic justification * for most Protestant denominations only references other Protestant denominations, and ignores the Catholic Church entirely. This justification is typically on a sola scriptura* basis, and involves the claim that the other churches misinterpret Scripture and so a new church, which interprets Scripture correctly, must be formed.

Do not forget that Catholics are a minority in the English-speaking world, and that, for most people in those cultures, the idea of being Catholic simplynever crosses their mind.

If I could sum your statement up in one word it’s “ignorance” that guides most Protestants. In other words, they don’t know the origins of Protestantism or the origins of the Catholic Church. That’s not a good excuse. Is that what you intended to convey?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I thought this thread was about whether St. Patrick was a “reformed” bible-believing christian or a Catholic?

This issue comes up every year around St. Patrick’s Day in the USA. Last March I remember driving in my car and hearing Dr. James Kennedy (a bible believing christian with a radio ministry) give a talk about how St. Patrick was a forerunner of the reformation because he did not agree with certain “Roman Catholic” practices. It’s not clear what his sources were because of course he never cited any authority. But even me - who has only a passing understanding of the history of St. Patrick - could tell that what he was trying to sell to his audience was a bunch of “blarney.” It was so ridiculous that I almost wrecked my car - I was laughing so hard at his rather weak assertions.

Personally, I think the protestant preachers envy the Catholic feast days and are trying to carve out a piece of St. Pat’s Day for their own flocks. I have no problem sharing a pint or two with my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, but let’s be honest with ourselves and with history about St. Patrick’s Catholicity.

Here’s a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia description of the Saint.
St. Patrick History

Of particular note in the article from the Catholic Encyclopedia is the following…

Pope St. Celestine I, who rendered immortal service to the Church by the overthrow of the Pelagian and Nestorian heresies, and by the imperishable wreath of honour decreed to the Blessed Virgin in the General Council of Ephesus, crowned his pontificate by an act of the most far-reaching consequences for the spread of Christianity and civilization, when he entrusted St. Patrick with the mission of gathering the Irish race into the one fold of Christ.

 

[Eden]

Robert in SD:

Personally, I think the protestant preachers envy the Catholic feast days and are trying to carve out a piece of St. Pat’s Day for their own flocks. I have no problem sharing a pint or two with my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, but let’s be honest with ourselves and with history about St. Patrick’s Catholicity.

http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/17.gif

 

[allhers]

Eden,
Thank you for that link, I didn’t know about the movie, I definately want it now.
We meet Sister, three years ago, and she signed our book, she signed it Maire B. de Paor (Sr Deelan).
She was wonderful, and yes, that is her in the movie thread. It was great seeing her again. She was wonderful, and seemed so holy and humble and so very intelligent. It was awsome just meeting her and listening to her speak. (I also am of Irish Heritage and call upon St. Patrick often, as a matter of fact, I did recently and here you are with this thread!! Tells me God answered my prayer. Guess you are the messenger ) Thank you again, I can’t wait to see that movie.

 

[Eden]

allhers:

Eden,
Thank you for that link, I didn’t know about the movie, I definately want it now.
We meet Sister, three years ago, and she signed our book, she signed it Maire B. de Paor (Sr Deelan).
She was wonderful, and yes, that is her in the movie thread. It was great seeing her again. She was wonderful, and seemed so holy and humble and so very intelligent. It was awsome just meeting her and listening to her speak.

What an honor for you to have met her. I just got this movie last month and I’ve been wanting to tell everyone about it. I was so moved by it. You’ll love it (and wish it were longer - it’s only an hour.)

(I also am of Irish Heritage and call upon St. Patrick often, as a matter of fact, I did recently and here you are with this thread!! Tells me God answered my prayer. Guess you are the messenger ) Thank you again, I can’t wait to see that movie.

Wow. Thank you for telling me that. God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Mystophilus]

Shiann:

Only if you group the non-Catholic religions together against Catholicism rather than each denomination against Catholicsm…

Let’s be clear…

Lets.

Catholicism is a minority if you group the Protestants together, even without the Orthodox Christians and all of the non-Christians. Such an action would be entirely reasonable considering that the differences between the major Protestant denominations are slight enough to allow individuals to freely and easily pass between them, often without noticing any change whatsoever from one church to the next. The barriers to Catholicism, on the other hand, are high and wide.

Looking at the figures, the predominance of Protestantism is quite clear:
The USA: Protestant 56%, Catholic 28%.
The United Kingdom: 70% Protestant, 14% Catholic.
Canada: 45% Catholic, 20% Protestant.
Australia: 44% Protestant, 27% Catholic.
New Zealand: 47.5% Protestant, 13% Catholic.
Across these five nations, then, we have 54.5% Protestant, 27% Catholic. Protestant dominance throughout the history of England and its colonies from the C16th has had its expected cultural effect.

 

[Mystophilus]

Eden:

If I could sum your statement up in one word it’s “ignorance” that guides most Protestants. In other words, they don’t know the origins of Protestantism or the origins of the Catholic Church. That’s not a good excuse. Is that what you intended to convey?

Most Protestants don’t care about the origins of Protestantism. Just as in the general population, few have any interest in history.

What I intended to convey is, strangely enough, what I said: they are Protestant because they are Protestant. Becoming Catholic is not a possibility which many of them even consider for a moment.

I am afraid that you may be conflating the position of Protestant individuals with the position of the Protestant church rhetoric mentioned at the end of the post.

 

[allhers]

Eden:

…
Wow. Thank you for telling me that. God works in mysterious ways.

Wow, another thing that you said that hit home!! My mother always use to say…“God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to behold”, (I have also asked her intercession lately,… after her death, her Pastor said to me, (right before her funeral Mass) “How does it feel to have your own personal Saint to pray to?” She was a living Saint too, I’ll tell you, she was so much like the Blessed Mother.

Now Mystophilus, have you ever heard this? “Fear not, little flock, it has pleased the Father to give you the Kingdom.”