St. Patrick's Day

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I too must express dismay that somehow this great saint has come to be thought of as mythical. Without St. Patrick, the Irish monks of the early Middle Ages would never have done such great work all over the Continent, such that one reputable modern author could write a book sold in the secular History Book Club, called How the Irish Saved Civilization. It is sad enough that the West doesn’t seem to remember the Irish contribution to all the sciences as well as to the Church, but now even St. Patrick is categorized with Santa Claus.

The coming of Patrick to Ireland marks the greatest of Irish epochs.

Of all most momentous happenings in Irish history, this seemingly simple one had the most extraordinary, most far-reaching effect. It changed the face of the nation, and utterly changed the nation’s destiny. The coming of Patrick to Ireland may be said to have had sublime effect not on Ireland alone, but upon the world. It was a world event.

The man himself proved to be a world figure–one of the massive giants who tower distinct and sublime above the dense mists of dim antiquity–one, too, of whom it may truly be said that the more intimately you approach him and the nearer you view him, the greater he grows. He was one of the greatest of Celts, became one of the greatest of Irishmen, and one of the very great among men.

—The Story of the Irish Race, copyright 1921, by Seamus MacManus, Ch. 19, p. 109.

MacManus allows for either theory of his derivation as a Celt, being either from Dumbarton in Northern Britain, or from Brittany in France. MacManus seems to lean to the continental theory in light of the fact (as he calls it) that his mother was the niece of St. Martin of Tours.

Rory

 

[Malleus_01]

Malleus : Yes . they are. And they earned their stripes as Americans in the Civil War. The Famous Irish Brigade was one of the most Decorated and had some of the highest Casualty rates in the entire War. Yes , we are American and we earned that right in Blood.

Pax

 

[tomarin]

I did forget to mention that I do enjoy kimchi which is a Korean fermented cabbage dish. It took a little bit of courage to try at first but it tastes nothing like cabbage and doesn’t really resemble it much either so I’m ok with that. . . .

Cheers! I hate the stuff so it’s good to know that all that cabbage isn’t going to waste.

Kimchi is great. My wife (who is Japanese) likes to cut it up and put it into a pork stir fry, which spices it up deliciously.

I know what you mean about older generations being very mono-cultural when it comes to food. I never actually saw a real clove of garlic until I moved away to go to college. I still blame this partly on my mother’s Irish roots. (Sorry, Jharek.)

 

[tomarin]

Malleus : Yes . they are. And they earned their stripes as Americans in the Civil War. The Famous Irish Brigade was one of the most Decorated and had some of the highest Casualty rates in the entire War. Yes , we are American and we earned that right in Blood.

Pax

My Irish ancestors came later than that.

 

[Lamafacaja]

First off, St. Patrick was most definitely real!

I should say so!

Secondly, it seems that my American friends celebrate St. Patrick’s day more than anyone I know. It’s a huge event there. But again, I think that’s through the efforts of the breweries rather than any Catholic sentiment. Also, most say they are of Irish descent, though probably a few generations removed, I think.

Because of the New York Irish. They brought the parade to us. The Jews brought us the corned beef there, too.

Thirdly, corned beef and cabbage tastes awful.

Seriously, you haven’t had mine. Really good. Everyone comes over for it. My husband tells me to make extra.

 

[Malleus_01]

My Irish ancestors came later than that.

A lot of people forget that the Irish Immigrants in the Early 1800’s were disliked and persecuted. Denied jobs. Cartoons written about them in the Newspapers. Discriminated against. But when they fought in the Civil War and their fellow Countrymen saw their willingness to fight and die for their adopted country - they were accepted by their fellow soldiers and then by the country. Today - people seem to forget that chapter of american history preceding the civil war… So if your ancestors came later - then they probably benefitted from the suffering of the early immigrants.

pax

 

[Malleus_01]

And lets not forget WWII when the good old USA saved you folks from the Nazis.

 

[Onegin]

Kimchi is great. My wife (who is Japanese) likes to cut it up and put it into a pork stir fry, which spices it up deliciously.

I know what you mean about older generations being very mono-cultural when it comes to food. I never actually saw a real clove of garlic until I moved away to go to college. I still blame this partly on my mother’s Irish roots. (Sorry, Jharek.)

That sounds delicious! I wanted to have a go at making kimchi myself, but all the recipes I’ve found say you need something called a “napa cabbage” which I haven’t seen. Besides, cabbage shopping isn’t exactly something I spend most of my time doing anyway.

I should say so!

Because of the New York Irish. They brought the parade to us. The Jews brought us the corned beef there, too.

Seriously, you haven’t had mine. Really good. Everyone comes over for it. My husband tells me to make extra.

Ah yes, the parades. I was in New York for a St. Patrick’s Day parade a few years back and they had a DeLorian driving down the street trimmed in green.

Despite what my posts indicate, I’m not a picky eater! But when it comes to corned beef and cabbage, there’s little hope left, I’m afraid. Good work on being able to cook it well - I can’t say I’ve experienced that.

 

[Onegin]

Thanks! I think I was confused because the oriental supermarket near me doesn’t carry fresh produce, so I was just searching at the local supermarket and greengrocer, neither of whom had heard of a napa cabbage.

 

[Malleus_01]

Malleus: Yes , But the Soviets certainly didnt refuse Lend Lease and all the assistance they recieved , did they. And the Truth is hardly a reductionist view ,

pax

 

[Onegin]

That’s right in the heart of where all the culture is! We’ve seen a lot of changes up here, but still nowhere near the choices that there are in London. However, I’m happy that on any given day it’s easy to find the ingredients for a Thai, Indian, Italian, Korean, Polish or Chinese cuisine with little effort. Most of the chip shops will even make a basic curry or cantonese dish now too.

I wish they’d build a Whole Foods Market up here as I sometimes have to sneak down to London to visit them

 

[tedjohn09]

So great!!!
Thanks,(name removed by moderator).
Wish someday I get a chance to your country and take part in St. Patrick’s day.

 

[YankeeRC]

And BTW Corned Beef and Cabbage is an American Invention by Irish immigrants to the US in New England. But we make it every year anyway.

Pax

Aye, and I have no doubt we American Irish have our Jewish neighbors to thank for that wonderful culinary gift because in NY, American Jews have done miraculous things with corned beef

Thirdly, corned beef and cabbage tastes awful.

Heresy!

 

[Brenda_V]

I don’t think I even need to go into how real St. Patrick was!

For those of you who don’t like Corned Beef and Cabbage, all the more for me. I make a really good one, in my slow cooker no less, looking forward to Wednesday when I will be making it. I will make some Irish Soda bread tomorrow night as I work until 4 on Wednesday and will be too tired to do anything more than finish up the corned beef.

Napa Cabbage is also called Chinese Cabbage. I can get it at any of my local supermarkets as well as in a Super Wal-Mart. This type of cabbage looks more like romaine lettuce, think long and looser leafed than regular cabbage, tighter leaved than lettuce. I like stir-frying with either kind of cabbage but napa will almost always be sweet whereas regular green cabbage can be bitter. Wiki gives a pretty good description of it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napa_cabbage . There is a picture of some cut in half too.

Oh, and if you like kimchi have you ever tried saurkraut? I can’t believe no one mentioned that when talking about cabbage. Both kimchi and saurkraut are fermented cabbage!

 

[tomarin]

I don’t think I even need to go into how real St. Patrick was!

For those of you who don’t like Corned Beef and Cabbage, all the more for me. I make a really good one, in my slow cooker no less, looking forward to Wednesday when I will be making it. I will make some Irish Soda bread tomorrow night as I work until 4 on Wednesday and will be too tired to do anything more than finish up the corned beef.

If it’s no trouble, Brenda, could you pm me your slow cooker recipe? Thanks.

 

[Dempsey1919]

St. Patrick’s Day celebrations are more of an American phenomenon. Obviously, the Irish celebrate the feast day of their saint, but the Americans take it to another level.

I don’t know why, but a lot of Americans seem to have a deep emotional connection with Ireland. When I went to New York, I met a lot of people who called themselves Irish-American, even though they had never been to Ireland.

I have found that Americans value their heritage and family history far more than Europeans. In Europe, if you are born in Ireland you call yourself Irish. If you are born in England you call yourself English. I doesn’t matter where your ancestors lived. I never understand why some Americans call themselves Irish-American, or Italian-American, or African-American. Why can’t they be just “Americans?”

In New York, some of these so-called Irish Americans looked down on me for being English. They muttered something about the English having no right to Ireland etc etc. I ignored these comments, but was troubled by them. Why should these Americans look down on me for being English? I think Americans should realise that the real Ireland, and the real England are different to what they think. They have such strong opinions and feelings for a nation that they have never been apart of. Also, its ironic that I was mistreated by Americans for being English, when I probably have deeper Irish roots then they do - but these roots don’t form a huge part of my personal identity like they do to many Americans.

 

[Lamafacaja]

That sounds delicious! I wanted to have a go at making kimchi myself, but all the recipes I’ve found say you need something called a “napa cabbage” which I haven’t seen. Besides, cabbage shopping isn’t exactly something I spend most of my time doing anyway.

Ah yes, the parades. I was in New York for a St. Patrick’s Day parade a few years back and they had a DeLorian driving down the street trimmed in green.

Despite what my posts indicate, I’m not a picky eater! But when it comes to corned beef and cabbage, there’s little hope left, I’m afraid. Good work on being able to cook it well - I can’t say I’ve experienced that.

Given the chance, I bet I would convert you. Not to brag or anything. It’s just the truth.

My great grandfather was the chief of police in Brooklyn. My uncle John was a fireman, so they marched.

I don’t go to the NYC parade. Too busy with the corned beef. The steam from all the pots of boiling water will be dripping off the kitchen widows by like about 12:30, so I’ll catch the parade on the tv.

 

[tomarin]

St. Patrick’s Day celebrations are more of an American phenomenon. Obviously, the Irish celebrate the feast day of their saint, but the Americans take it to another level.

I don’t know why, but a lot of Americans seem to have a deep emotional connection with Ireland. When I went to New York, I met a lot of people who called themselves Irish-American, even though they had never been to Ireland.

It’s a little hard to explain if you’re not a member of “the tribe,” but my take on it is that for a long time there was an unquestioned solidarity among Irish people in America born out of the pressures of discrimination and living in close quarters and doing dirty, thankless, dangerous jobs for little money. I think all they had sometimes was their sense of Irishness and possibly alcohol and of course Catholicism. Those pressures eased of course as their children and grand-children assimilated and became successful and by the time of JFK’s election, Irish-Americans were really not all that different from other white Americans. However, some of that solidarity lingers on and is expressed in a heavily cliched form at least once a year in St. Patricks Day. I always felt somehow special for being of Irish heritage; I suppose in some ways it’s not that different from how some people feel special for being Jewish.

I have found that Americans value their heritage and family history far more than Europeans. In Europe, if you are born in Ireland you call yourself Irish. If you are born in England you call yourself English. I doesn’t matter where your ancestors lived. I never understand why some Americans call themselves Irish-American, or Italian-American, or African-American. Why can’t they be just “Americans?”

Interestingly, a lot of conservatives here would agree with you; they tend to decry the “hyphenization” of America. Still, it is and has always been a diverse country with people from different places, so to some extent it does describe a lived reality. My feeling is we shouldn’t let that get in the way of our shared loyalty to our country and sense of common purpose as Americans, so I guess I agree with you.

In New York, some of these so-called Irish Americans looked down on me for being English. They muttered something about the English having no right to Ireland etc etc. I ignored these comments, but was troubled by them. Why should these Americans look down on me for being English? I think Americans should realise that the real Ireland, and the real England are different to what they think. They have such strong opinions and feelings for a nation that they have never been apart of. Also, its ironic that I was mistreated by Americans for being English, when I probably have deeper Irish roots then they do - but these roots don’t form a huge part of my personal identity like they do to many Americans.

I’m sorry you had the misfortune to run into those people; I think I know the type. If I had been there I would have been mortified since I’m a big Anglophile as well as an Irish-American (go figure).

In the United States there used to be a long tradition of what was called “pulling the tail of the lion,” which was essentially politicians and newspapers appealing to populist, anti-British sentiment. I kind of think the boorish reception you received had more than a touch of that. Also, don’t forget New Yorkers … well, I better leave it at that.

 

[adstrinity]

Aye, we’re all wild geese.

Ummmm…hmmmmmm…

Thirdly, corned beef and cabbage tastes awful.

Amen! And, more importantly, as some have pointed out, it’s Jewish food…not that I’m opposed to eating Jewish food on Saint’s Feast’s Days…though, corned beef & cabbage makes me REAL appreciative I’m going meatless Wednesdays & Fridays.

 

[tomarin]

A lot of people forget that the Irish Immigrants in the Early 1800’s were disliked and persecuted. Denied jobs. Cartoons written about them in the Newspapers. Discriminated against. But when they fought in the Civil War and their fellow Countrymen saw their willingness to fight and die for their adopted country - they were accepted by their fellow soldiers and then by the country. Today - people seem to forget that chapter of american history preceding the civil war… So if your ancestors came later - then they probably benefitted from the suffering of the early immigrants.

pax

Those cartoons you mention were part of the scientific racism of the day; people believed that the Catholic Irish – and all Celts, actually – were a distinct sub-species of human that was genetically inferior to the English (and hence Anglo-Americans). The social hierarchy of races was thought to have a basis in biology. Phrenology, the science (ahem) of reading bumps on people’s heads, was supposed to confirm the inferiority of the Irish and their propensity to fight, steal, drink, and engage in other immoral behaviors.

(On a side note, it seems the case of the Scots, who were so inferior as to give the world the Scottish Enlightenment, would prove how ridiculous this theory was, but for whatever reason no one seems to have considered them, maybe simply because it was inconvenient to do so, or because it was thought that the smart Scots were actually of Germanic, not Celtic, stock.)

It was only later in the early twentieth century, I’d say, that Irish people were “promoted” from a race to a mere ethnicity.