St Patrick's Day

[Matthew_Holford]

OK so why a question on St Patrick’s Day at this time of year. I was looking at how various countries treat All Saints - holyday of obligation, no obligation, transfer to Sunday. I noted Ireland lists St Patrick’s Day as a holyday of obligation. I thought that, in addition to all Sundays, there are 10 holydays of obligation (assuming an Episcopal Conference’s right to remove the precept): Christmas, Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi, Mary Mother of God, Assumption, Immaculate Conception, St Joseph, Ss. Peter & Paul, and All Saints. Has Ireland been given an indult for this?

 

[ocleirbj]

St Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland and his feast day is also their national holiday. This is probably why it is a day of obligation there.

I once heard an entertaining interview with an Irish scholar of Celtic Studies living in Toronto, where the interviewer was doing a “Ho-ho-ho Jolly Old St Patrick” kind of thing. When asked what she usually did for St Patrick’s Day in Ireland, the professor responded thoughtfully that she would go to Mass, of course, and then if there was a good play on at the Abbey Theatre [Ireland’s national theatre] she might go see it. The interviewer was clearly confused at not getting the kind of response he wanted - green beer, singing and carousing, etc. Unfortunately, since then I have noticed that Ireland has started to import the North American-style “everyone’s Irish today” buffoonery on St Patrick’s Day, even painting cartoon leprechauns on pub windows. Alas.

 

[NE_Catholic]

St Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland and his feast day is also their national holiday. This is probably why it is a day of obligation there.

I once heard an entertaining interview with an Irish scholar of Celtic Studies living in Toronto, where the interviewer was doing a “Ho-ho-ho Jolly Old St Patrick” kind of thing. When asked what she usually did for St Patrick’s Day in Ireland, the professor responded thoughtfully that she would go to Mass, of course, and then if there was a good play on at the Abbey Theatre [Ireland’s national theatre] she might go see it. The interviewer was clearly confused at not getting the kind of response he wanted - green beer, singing and carousing, etc. Unfortunately, since then I have noticed that Ireland has started to import the North American-style “everyone’s Irish today” buffoonery on St Patrick’s Day, even painting cartoon leprechauns on pub windows. Alas.

Saint Patrick’s Day for me growing up was Mass only. I think Anheiser Bush et al marketed the drunk image

 

[Matthew_Holford]

St Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland and his feast day is also their national holiday. This is probably why it is a day of obligation there.

I’m not aware of any other country having a holyday of obligation on its patron saint’s day. St George’s Day in England, St. Andrew’s Day in Scotland, and St. David’s day are not holyday of obligation. I thought only the Holy See could make a day a holyday of obligation. Therefore, that’s why in my OP I enquired whether the Irish Bishop’s Conference had obtain an indult from the Holy See to make it a holyday of obligation.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

OK guys thanks for responding. Of course you’re all letting down the stereotypical Irishman

I’ve emailed the Irish Bishops’ Conference - might as well have the answer directly from source.

Matt

 

[newyorkcatholic]

I think Bishops Conferences can add/reduce HDOs but within reason (e.g. Christmas is always a HDO everywhere).

 

[Digitonomy]

Canon law is a bit hard to follow for the amateur canonist (me) on this issue:

Can. 1244 §1. It is only for the supreme ecclesiastical authority to establish, transfer, and suppress feast days and days of penance common to the universal Church, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1246, §2. [1246 §2 allows bishops’ conferences to transfer or suppress holy days, with prior approval of the Holy See.]

§2. Diocesan bishops can decree special feast days or days of penance for their dioceses or places, but only in individual instances.

I’d have to look at a commentary to get a better idea what is meant by “individual instances” - perhaps a bishop can decree such a day for this year, but not an automatically recurring day. I’m also guessing that a “special feast day” could be a holy day of obligation, but I’m not certain.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I think Bishops Conferences can add/reduce HDOs but within reason (e.g. Christmas is always a HDO everywhere).

Can’t remember the source, but yes Holy See prefers all episcopal conferences to retain Christmas Day as an HDO and one in honour of our Lady.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Canon law is a bit hard to follow for the amateur canonist (me) on this issue:
I’d have to look at a commentary to get a better idea what is meant by “individual instances” - perhaps a bishop can decree such a day for this year, but not an automatically recurring day. I’m also guessing that a “special feast day” could be a holy day of obligation, but I’m not certain.

Sheehy, et al. (p. 700) say: “The exclusive authority of the Holy See is clearly stated in §1: even the authority granted to Bishops’ Conferences in Can. 1246 §2 may be exercised only if it has the approval of the Holy See."

Cf. Can 1246 §2: “However, the Bishops’ Conference may, with the prior approval of the Apostolic See, suppress certain holydays of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday”. On this Sheehy et al. simply comment that episcopal conferences can transfer HDO to a Sunday or remove the precept.]

Reference
Sheehy, G., Brown, R., Kelly, D., and McGrath, A. (eds) (1995) The Canon Law Letter & Spirit. London: Geoffrey Chapman (ISBN 0-225-66702-9)

 

[Digitonomy]

Is that all it says about 1244? Unfortunately that’s really not much help at all, and raises a number of questions:

1. 
   ]Are they suggesting that any feast day or day of penance decreed by the bishop must receive prior approval from the Holy See?]Is there any difference in this regard between obligatory and non-obligatory feast days or days of penance?*]Once again, what is meant by “individual instances”? *]If my interpretation above of “individual instances” is correct, does that mean that even with Vatican approval a recurring local feast day or day of penance cannot be established?
   
   Edit: Reading through the canon law sections on feast days and days of penance, it appears that canonically these days are always obligatory. That answers my question #2.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Is that all it says about 1244?

No, my fault, I only dealt with §1.

Their commentary regarding §2 says Bishops can proclaim special holydays or days of penance. No mention of needing Rome’s approval, so hopefully that answers Q.1. You’ve answered Q.2. Regarding Q.3. “individual occasions” examples given are time of war, famine, seriously threatening weather conditions, etc*. or thanksgiving for deliverance from any of these events. It goes on to make it clear that such days can only be established by the bishop as one-off occasions - they cannot be established by him as permanent holydays or days of penance. Regarding Q.4. I would interpret the Canon together with Sheehy et al. commentary that a one-off wouldn’t need Rome’s approval but that the establishment of any new permanent holyday or penitential day would require such permission. I hope this helps but like you my interest in Canon Law is that of an amateur too, I just happen to have a commentary to hand.

*They use ‘etc.’ - not a case of me not giving all their examples.

 

[Digitonomy]

Thanks, that makes sense. It seems pretty clear that a bishop has wide latitude to decree a feast day, even if the authors of the commentary only envisioned or knew of the more singular types of occasions they listed. Thus a bishop or group of bishops in England could declare a feast day of St George in any given year. I also don’t see any obstacle to repeating such a decree the following year. This annual renewal of decrees may be what is occurring in Ireland, but I suspect a more permanent situation is in effect.

 

[Chatter163]

According to Wiki, in Germany, Easter Monday and St. Stephen’s are both holy days.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

According to Wiki, in Germany, Easter Monday and St. Stephen’s are both holy days.

May I clarify with you the use of the phrase “holy days”? All solemnities (e.g. Easter Monday), feasts (e.g. St Stephen) and memorials are holy days. The majority of holy days are not days of precept, i.e. holy days of obligation. Are you saying the Easter Monday and St Stephen are holy days of obligation in German? What search terms did you put in Wiki to obtain this information?

 

[SMHW]

May I clarify with you the use of the phrase “holy days”? All solemnities (e.g. Easter Monday), feasts (e.g. St Stephen) and memorials are holy days. The majority of holy days are not days of precept, i.e. holy days of obligation. Are you saying the Easter Monday and St Stephen are holy days of obligation in German? What search terms did you put in Wiki to obtain this information?

If you Google “Holy Day(s) of Obligation” you should find a wiki which lists the days observed by various nations. Germany and Ireland are the only countries listed which observe days in addition to the “standard” days.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

If you Google “Holy Day(s) of Obligation” you should find a wiki which lists the days observed by various nations. Germany and Ireland are the only countries listed which observe days in addition to the “standard” days.

Dear SMHW

Thank you for the information.

I followed your instructions. Unusually, Google only provided four pages of results and none of them had returned a Wiki. The following does however work. Type Wikipedia into Google and then in the Wikipedia search box type “Holydays of Obligation”, the first result I obtained was Holy Day of Obligation, which provides a list of holydays of obligation by country. You can convert the page to a PDF and save it on your PC, which is what I’ve done.

I trust you don’t mind me advising you that your suggestion did not work and this will help other posters find the information.

Best wishes

Matt

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I wouldn’t invest too much effort in teasing out the precise implications of the cited canons. For one, the creation of special feasts days says nothing about creating an obligation to attend Mass on them. More importantly, however, the pope can do whatever he wants. Certainly, he might need to follow certain forms in order for the validity of his acts to be recognizable, but he can, loosely speaking, create whatever holy day of obligation he pleases.

BTW, you do know of another country with a holy day of obligation for its patron(ess), although it’s a cheater - the United States is bound to attend Mass on the feast of its patroness, the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Digitonomy]

I wouldn’t invest too much effort in teasing out the precise implications of the cited canons. For one, the creation of special feasts days says nothing about creating an obligation to attend Mass on them.

As I noted, the sections of the CIC that deal with feast days and days of penance are exclusively about obligatory days. Canonically speaking, it appears that if it’s not obligatory, it’s not technically a feast day.
Andreas Hofer:

More importantly, however, the pope can do whatever he wants. Certainly, he might need to follow certain forms in order for the validity of his acts to be recognizable, but he can, loosely speaking, create whatever holy day of obligation he pleases.

Obviously the pope can do whatever he wants. The question was whether the pope had to step in and do what he wanted in Ireland, or if the Irish bishops could do what they wanted without requiring any action by the Holy See. That is still not clear.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

As I noted, the sections of the CIC that deal with feast days and days of penance are exclusively about obligatory days. Canonically speaking, it appears that if it’s not obligatory, it’s not technically a feast day.

The section on feast days surely gives the impression that it concerns only days of precept; the section on penitential days, however, does not. After all, it includes the season of Lent among the penitential times, and that season, apart from Ash Wednesday and its Fridays, imposes no penitential obligation whatsoever upon the faithful. Furthermore, if you look at the Latin text, the section on feast days does concern only feasts of precept (de praecepto), while the earlier canon granting the authority to proclaim special feasts in one’s own territory is not included in this section and, more importantly, does not contain the all important words de praecepto that are annexed to every mention of a feast in the subsequent section. Thus it would appear not to pertain specifically to days of precept.

Now, that is not a slam dunk case against the authority to establish an obligation to attend Mass - it may either be contained generically or found somewhere else in the code - but when one combines the non-obligatory nature of some of the days in the section on “Penitential Days” with the lack of any reference to bishops establishing special feast days of precept, we need to conclude that there is no explicit grant of authority to establish such an obligation in the canons that have been presented. We need further evidence.

BTW - the fact that the code does speak of feast days that are not feasts of precept goes against the assertion that, canonically speaking, there is no such thing as a feast day not of precept.

 

[Digitonomy]

Interesting! Thanks for that correction.