St Paul and Baptusm

[jcrichton]

Hi Jcrichton,

Your answer is very profound, and merits deep reflection.

But reading it am reminded of the saying “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.

I also consider that it was not heresy to hold as view that has been later condemned. Thus Thomas Aquinas would not have been considered a heretic if he denied the Immaculate Conception, and Paul (of Tarsus, not Samosata) would not be a heretic if he was an Adoptionist (cf. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=268245)

[This is not our topic, but I do see “ he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, (Phil. 2:8-9 NAB). do not want this considered now].

Also, as I wrote before, I do not want to get into an argument about the theology of baptism.

It used to be claimed that “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” i.e. no one not baptized can be saved. There are baptisms of water, blood and desire, so it may be considered that everyone gets at least baptism of desire. This may be so. But I am no theologian, just an ordinary Catholic, who wants to remain a member in good standing of the People of God. So many topics are beyond me.

I think the discussion can be ended, as views have been aired with charity and courtesy, even if I am still a bit confused.

Perhaps raising ‘circumcision’ as an issue is not helpful – “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6 NAB). Are we saved, as our Lutheran friend hold by faith alone?

I note you have “it is through Baptism that we gain access to God’s Saving Grace in Christ Jesus!”. This seems to show you hold that outside the Church there is no salvation “extra eccclesiam…”

The initial problem was Thus there seems a problem “For Paul are we made a Christian, a member of the People of God, by baptism or my accepting Christ by responding to prevenient grace?”

I think for Paul we become a Christian by prevenient grace, responding to God’s invitation, as shown by e.g. “For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus”. (Gal. 3:26 NAB). However, as can be seen, I am still a bit confused and need study and prayer.

…yes, in deed, we have come to the full circle; you continue to seek proof beyond reasonable doubt (while doubting every proof); hence, there’s little course left to take but the ole “aloha.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Jcrichton,
thanks for your reply. Paul may have kept some part of his past as a Pharisee after his conversion.
I note he was baptized immediately after his conversion (Acts).
Some may consider that for us baptism has replaced circumcision as a badge of membership of God’s people.
My concern is not about baptism per se, but about Paul’s view of baptism.

The problem, I believe, when reading Paul is that, because of the long argued Protestant position of Faith Alone, we no longer are able to see the true context.

For example, an alchoholic might say that it was his “faith” in AA which saved him. Well, that is true in the sense that THAT was the first step on the road to recovery. But he might just as easily say with truth that it was his adherence to the 12 steps, or that it was his never having another drink, or any number of other things which “saved” him. You have to understand that Paul very often hammers home the need for Faith, in order to fight the tendency the people had in thinking it was something like strict observance of the Mosaic Law which saved them. Therefore he always talks about that first step, which is Faith. Obviously it doesn’t end there for Paul. Baptism is understood as THE way Christians are Sanctified (reborn in Christ.) But Faith must come first (with adults)

So Paul’s understanding of Baptism is no different than ours.

Your question:

I asked “For Paul are we made a Christian, a member of the People of God, by baptism or my accepting Christ by responding to prevenient grace?”

Is easily answered when reading the Scriptures with the above in mind.

In one sense responding to grace by Faith IS the first step in becoming a Christian. However, until Baptism one has only made a decision, but not put it into action. It is STILL necessary (in Paul’s view) to put it into action by being Baptized. This is all understood by his contemporary readers, and therefore there is no need for him to belabor this point the way it seems to be today in the aftermath of the Protestant heresies.