St. Paul teaches that the Church at Rome is “full of goodness” and “filled with all knowledge.”

[raumzeitmc2]

The Reformers labeled her the “Whore of Babylon.” Yet, by doing so, they utterly contradicted the express teaching of the sacred writer who, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said of the Church at Rome:

“I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to admonish one another.” Rom. 15:14.

Note also that this statement of St. Paul’s is unique! It is said of *no other church *in the New Testament! We are told that only the Church at Rome is “full of goodness” and “filled with all knowledge.” Further, no other Christian church in 2000 year history of Christianity has ever dared apply such appellations to itself! Think of this!

Clearly then, the Holy Spirit, by inspiring the phrases “full of goodness” and “filled with all knowledge”, is teaching us something *extremely significant * here about the Roman Church.

And what do you suppose that to be?

 

[krew07]

well, last time looked, the Vatican was full of hypocritical power hungry lunatics. Who promote the spread of deadly disease and overpopulation by making condoms a sin…While at the same time having their employees rape and molest children on an unprecedented scale.,this also is the same church who once sold “get out of hell free” tickets for money,the price depending on the sin…and of course the horrific torture and murder of the inquisition…ALL THESE things keeps them in high esteem for some folks.

 

[Agape_Thom]

I believe that at the time Paul wrote this the church in Rome was a relatively small group of people. It probably numbered in the hundreds at that time and was composed mostly of what we would consider common lay people. It was not, in any way, the hierarchal system and organization that we call the “Church of Rome” today. In fact, it was simply a local group of Christian people. Also, don’t forget that we have only a few of the letters Paul may have written to various churches. It’s possible he had even higher and grander accolades for some other group of Christians. Speculation, I know, but well within the realm of possibility.

 

[Genesis315]

Notice he also says that their faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world.

Rom. 1: 8* First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

This is why St. Jerome, the great bliblical scholar of the fourth century appealed to the Church at Rome:
St. Jerome:

1. Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, woven from the top throughout, John 19:23 since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, Song of Songs 2:15 and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover the sealed fountain and the garden inclosed, Song of Songs 4:12 I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for the pearl of great price. Matthew 13:46 Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Matthew 24:28 Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact. The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold; but here the seed grain is choked in the furrows and nothing grows but darnel or oats. Matthew 13:22-23 In the West the Sun of righteousness Malachi 4:2 is even now rising; in the East, Lucifer, who fell from heaven, Luke 10:18 has once more set his throne above the stars. Isaiah 14:12 You are the light of the world, Matthew 5:14 you are the salt of the earth, Matthew 5:13 you are vessels of gold and of silver. Here are vessels of wood or of earth, 2 Timothy 2:20 which wait for the rod of iron, Revelation 2:27 and eternal fire.
2. Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! Matthew 16:18 This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. Exodus 12:22 This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.

newadvent.org/fathers/3001015.htm

 

[Genesis315]

well, last time looked, the Vatican was full of hypocritical power hungry lunatics.

lol, when was the last time you looked, the 12th century? (but even in that period simony was considered a mortal sin). Anyway, I’m not sure what power you ascribe to the folks their now. If one is a power hungry lunatic, it is better to run for public office, not making all the sacrifices of becoming a priest with the hope of one day being able to attain to the headaches of a bishopric.

Who promote the spread of deadly disease and overpopulation by making condoms a sin…

Of course, they don’t “make condoms a sin.” But if you want to use that terminology, they also “make” fornication and adultery sins–the folks who ignore “the power hungry lunatics” on those two issues are not going to all of a sudden respect them when it comes to condoms.

While at the same time having their employees rape and molest children on an unprecedented scale.,

While you are right to deplore these abominable actions, it is unfortunately not unprecedented, but rather is endemic to our time in all sectors–be it public school teachers, other religious leaders, and the general public.

,this also is the same church who once sold “get out of hell free” tickets for money,the price depending on the sin.

That’s just not true–I think you are confusing Hell with Purgatory. Likewise, the “power hungry lunatics” actually condemned this practice in Council at Trent back in the 1500s when some wayward clerics engaged in it.

.

…and of course the horrific torture and murder of the inquisition…

While this is generally a state action, and state use of the death penalty is not always unjustified, most of what popular imagination conjures up about the inquisitions are derived from the black legends, although there of course were failings and abuses, as there are in any justice system run by fallen human beings.

…ALL THESE things keeps them in high esteem for some folks.

I really don’t think the people who actually hold the erroneous views you do think they are positives.

Anyway, I think you should be a little more open minded and less pre-judgmental. There are definitely valid criticisms to be made, but a little more study in the spirit of charity will go a long way in helping you make those criticisms appropriately.

 

[Jon_Hus]

What about Paul’s good words for:

The Church in Corinth 1 Cor 1:2-9
The Church in Ephesis Eph 1:15-23
The Church in Phillippi Phi 1: 5-11
The Church in Colosse Col 1:3-8
The Church in Thessaloniki 1 Thess 1:4-10

Then there are John’s words to the 7 Churches in Asia Minor (6 if you don’t count the church in Ephesis mentioned by Paul above). Then there are Paul’s good words to other churches mentioned in Acts. Temper that with the fact that Paul is writing to individual believers in Rome, (many of whom were probably converted Jews BTW) and not about the organization as it existed in the mid-1st century (in my opinion based on a simple reading of Romans ch 1).

There are good and bad things mentioned of many churches in the NT. But to make the claim that Rome is special based on this passage in Romans in not an arguement that I would personally rush to defend. For numerous reasons, if I wanted to defend any single church as “special” (not something I think is possible), I would make the attempt to justify that claim to the Church in Jerusalem. Paul makes many loving comments to that Church during his travels as recorded by Dr. Luke.

take care,
Jon

 

[Nita]

I believe that at the time Paul wrote this the church in Rome was a relatively small group of people. It probably numbered in the hundreds at that time and was composed mostly of what we would consider common lay people. It was not, in any way, the hierarchal system and organization that we call the “Church of Rome” today. In fact, it was simply a local group of Christian people. Also, don’t forget that we have only a few of the letters Paul may have written to various churches. It’s possible he had even higher and grander accolades for some other group of Christians. Speculation, I know, but well within the realm of possibility.

If you’ve read Paul’s letters, then you know he did not write to the churches as just a peer – but as one who had authority over them. In other words, it was already hierarchical from the beginning. The successors of Paul and the other apostles are the bishops. Naturally the visible structure changed as numbers grew, churches got built, …

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

well, last time looked, the Vatican was full of hypocritical power hungry lunatics. Who promote the spread of deadly disease and overpopulation by making condoms a sin…While at the same time having their employees rape and molest children on an unprecedented scale.,this also is the same church who once sold “get out of hell free” tickets for money,the price depending on the sin…and of course the horrific torture and murder of the inquisition…ALL THESE things keeps them in high esteem for some folks.

I do not believe that your stay here with be long. But then again, I do tend to believe in miracles

God bless you

 

[Mark77]

well, last time looked, the Vatican was full of hypocritical power hungry lunatics. **Who promote the spread of deadly disease and overpopulation by making condoms a sin…**While at the same time having their employees rape and molest children on an unprecedented scale.,this also is the same church who once sold “get out of hell free” tickets for money,the price depending on the sin…and of course the horrific torture and murder of the inquisition…ALL THESE things keeps them in high esteem for some folks.

Wake up man! The Pope speaks the Truth, even if you won’t listen to facts!!!

Stop listening to the garbage FICTION put out by Ton Hanks and Ron Howard! (they just want to make money off fools like you and they admit their movies are fiction and are entertainment produced simply to make them millions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$)

If you want to hear verified scientific truth (i believe in science!), not garbage, read this article by Edward C. Green, PhD, Senior Research Scientist, Harvard School of Public Health, and Director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project, a liberal, non-Catholic.

To summarize, Dr. Green says the scientific data collected by government agencies and the UN confirms the teachings of Jesus Christ through His Catholic Church as expressed by the Pope! AIDS has increased in every country in Africa that promoted the use of condoms!!!

**Only one country, Uganda, has seen a decrease in AIDS because they promote what the Church teaches, sex in marriage only (or with one partner only, not Church teaching, but “zero grazing” makes sense for those who are not Catholic).

**(washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Departed_Light]

As I said in another thread that the OP asked me to come here and discuss:

Romans 15:14 proves that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith? How about some Official Church Teaching on that exegesis?

What about the very next verses?

Romans 15:15, 16 - But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Why would a Church that was just spoken of as having the fullness of the Truth have to be boldly reminded of anything?

Haydock has no remark on this verse.

Here (newadvent.org/fathers/210229.htm) is St. John Chrysostom’s Homily on that verse. St. John clearly points to this verse as speaking to the particular Christians in Rome at the time and has nothing to do with an overall prophetic message that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth.

From Sacra Pagina’s Interpretation of Rom 15:14 - (see attached thumbnail)

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6484&d=1251899497

If the Catholic Church points to this passage as Scriptural proof that the Catholic Church posses the fullness of the truth, I sure would like to see that.

On several occasions the non-Catholic posts Scriptures to back up their arguments the Catholic antagonist retort is that there is no private interpretation and the Church is the official interpreter of Scripture – then the Catholic when posting Scripture to prove their point must back it up by some sort Church document showing that the poster is using the verse in question correctly according to Catholic teaching.

There is no way this verse in Romans points to the Catholic Church having the fullness of the truth. Even a simpleton like me can see that.

 

[Departed_Light]

In continuation:

If the Catholic poster on these board chides the non-Catholic with the argument that the Church’s Magisterium provides the correct interpretation of Scripture, then the Catholic when using Scriptures must provide something from that Magisterium to show the non-Catholic that he is using Scripture in accordance with Catholic teachings and not his own personal interpretation.

In the previous post I quoted from only Catholic sources, though admittedly not from the Magisterium as far as I can tell, and these sources disagree with your interpretation of the Scripture in question.

How can a Catholic that relies on the Magisterium for Scriptural interpretation make this error and expect it to go unchallenged? Why even try? If the Magisterium has all the teaching one needs, why even read or attempt to apply Scripture to your life outside the Liturgy?

The idea that the Church in Rome at the time of Paul’s writing is anything like the Church of Rome today is simply laughable. The time, the circumstances, the culture, the ruling authorities are all vastly different. How can anyone attempt to make that comparison with a straight face?

The Magisterium says the Catholic Church’s teachings are infallible, and so the faithful Catholic accepts that on faith. That is the best example of circular reasoning there is.

Catholics that are quoting from St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas – Have St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas ever been Pope and are the quotes you are providing from when St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas were Pope and speaking ex cathedra? If not, then how can these quotes be pertinent to how a Catholic applies these Scriptures we’re discussing?

Since there is no document from the Magisterium that has the interpretation of all of Scripture how does the faithful Catholic even know what the correct interpretation is other than it has to line up with already establish Catholic teaching?

At a minimum has the Magisterium declared what the official correct interpretation of Romans 15:14 is? If so, let’s see it. Why discuss it if the Church has spoken on it?

And if the Church has not spoken on it – how can Catholics use their own private interpretation when, as we non-Catholics are told 15 times a day on these forums, that is a complete no-go for the Catholic faithful?

And just how many questions can I ask in a single post anyway?

 

[Harpazo]

What about Paul’s good words for:

The Church in Corinth 1 Cor 1:2-9
The Church in Ephesis Eph 1:15-23
The Church in Phillippi Phi 1: 5-11
The Church in Colosse Col 1:3-8
The Church in Thessaloniki 1 Thess 1:4-10

Most, if not all, of those Churches still exist to this day, believing what they believed at the time St. Paul wrote to them.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Reformers labeled her the “Whore of Babylon.” Yet, by doing so, they utterly contradicted the express teaching of the sacred writer who, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said of the Church at Rome:

“I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to admonish one another.” Rom. 15:14.

Note also that this statement of St. Paul’s is unique! It is said of *no other church *in the New Testament! We are told that only the Church at Rome is “full of goodness” and “filled with all knowledge.” Further, no other Christian church in 2000 year history of Christianity has ever dared apply such appellations to itself! Think of this!

Cadbury’s Milk Chocolate often advertised itself as “full of…goodness” - by your reasoning, a milk chocolate bar is therefore the Church of Christ. If it were made out of taxi-drivers, it would be “full of knowledge”. There are plenty of taxi-drivers in Rome now - maybe Paul was talking about them.​

A lot of people claim to be Jesus - the claim is so “dar[ing]”,that it must be true. By your reasoning - not mine, or anyone else’s. Making claims is not the same as their being true - you may claim to be able to make intelligent arguments, but no one has to believe you can, if you don’t make them. So far, you have not. You can insist that pigs have wings - there is no evidence for this. (And by “pigs” I don’t mean “police” - I mean highly intelligent four-legged animals with trotters that go “oink” & are the source of bacon & sausages: the police do not have trotters, even if they do tell porkies. They are probably not edible - apparently, humans are not: they have too many chemicals in them to be passed as fit for human consumption.

Clearly then, the Holy Spirit, by inspiring the phrases “full of goodness” and “filled with all knowledge”, is teaching us something *extremely significant *here about the Roman Church.
And what do you suppose that to be?

Let me guess…the HS is telling us to eats lots of milk chocolate ?​

That is as convincing as saying that the Emperor Nero rules in Rome. So he did - 1950 years ago. I know it’s very hard to believe, but we are no longer living under Nero, nor is Paul of Tarsus now alive: it’s not likely he would be, for he would be about 2,000 years old if he were. You may know of a way of living for 2,000 years - so please try to understand that, oddly enough, some of us don’t. (Of course, there are those who want us to live for ever (or for 2,000 years, which is pretty much for ever.) IOW, rather a lot of time has gone by since Paul wrote those words about that Church. Things happen, with the passing of time: what was true 1950 years ago is sometimes not true now. One of the things that has changed, is the moral character of the Church at Rome - it may then have been all Paul said it was then. It’s shown plenty of wickedness, cruelty, ambition, corruption and arrogance since - it was a mediaeval Catholic who called it “a sewer running with blood and filth” - but goodness ? Sometimes. The point is, that goodness is very far from being its only or most obvious feature. Violence, a persecuting spirit, pride & worldliness have been equally characteristic of it: & neither Paul nor Jesus himself had much liking for those things. Both are on record as having some extremely severe things to say about “religious people” with those faults.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What about Paul’s good words for:

The Church in Corinth 1 Cor 1:2-9
The Church in Ephesis Eph 1:15-23
The Church in Phillippi Phi 1: 5-11
The Church in Colosse Col 1:3-8
The Church in Thessaloniki 1 Thess 1:4-10

Then there are John’s words to the 7 Churches in Asia Minor (6 if you don’t count the church in Ephesis mentioned by Paul above). Then there are Paul’s good words to other churches mentioned in Acts. Temper that with the fact that Paul is writing to individual believers in Rome, (many of whom were probably converted Jews BTW) and not about the organization as it existed in the mid-1st century (in my opinion based on a simple reading of Romans ch 1).

There are good and bad things mentioned of many churches in the NT. But to make the claim that Rome is special based on this passage in Romans in not an arguement that I would personally rush to defend. For numerous reasons, if I wanted to defend any single church as “special” (not something I think is possible), I would make the attempt to justify that claim to the Church in Jerusalem. Paul makes many loving comments to that Church during his travels as recorded by Dr. Luke.

take care,
Jon

**The CC - and the Roman church - remind me of the churches in Revelation. If Jesus can threaten that at Laodicea that “[he] will spew it out of [his] mouth” if it does not repent, why should Rome be different ? If God destroyed His own Temple, city, & Davidic monarchy when he had promised unconditionally that it would remain for ever - why should the Church be spared ? **​

---

**And people seem to forget that privilege and responsibility go together: if Rome is all it’s cracked up to be, it will be judged all the more rigorously. Amos’ words say what needs to be said: **

** 1 Hear this word the LORD has spoken against you, O people of Israel—against the whole family I brought up out of Egypt: **
** 2 “You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your sins.”**

• [http://www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com)

 

[Nita]

**The CC - and the Roman church - remind me of the churches in Revelation. If Jesus can threaten that at Laodicea that “[he] will spew it out of [his] mouth” if it does not repent, why should Rome be different ? If God destroyed His own Temple, city, & Davidic monarchy when he had promised unconditionally that it would remain for ever - why should the Church be spared ? **​

---

**And people seem to forget that privilege and responsibility go together: if Rome is all it’s cracked up to be, it will be judged all the more rigorously. Amos’ words say what needs to be said: **

** 1 Hear this word the LORD has spoken against you, O people of Israel—against the whole family I brought up out of Egypt: **
** 2 “You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your sins.”**

• [http://www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com)

All of the Churches mentioned in Revelation were members of the Catholic Church. So it is not just the warnings to the Church in Laodicea that we Catholics need to remind ourselves of.

As I read the letters, there seem to be two components to the judgement: a judgement of the church as a congregation, and an individual judgement of the members within the congregation (some judged as faithful, other judged as sinful/heretical). The Laodicean Church seems to be particularly bad off – but even to them God leaves open the opportunity to change and return to His good graces. I agree that the Catholic Church in the U.S. went thru some pretty bad times subsequent to Vatican II, but I think things are improving; there is repentance and change taking place. Naturally, not by all – and that’s where the individual judgement will take place.

When you speak of the Church of Rome, or the CC, do you mean the Pope, bishops, and the total membership of the Catholic Church? Re the Pope, I would have to say that the Church has been blessed with exceptionally faithful and good popes throughout this whole trying period. Re bishops and priests, I don’t know percentagewise how many remained/remain faithful. Same with the total membership. Many in Europe and the US fell away from the truth, but there are far more countries with Catholics than just the more developed nations.

In the depravity of our current secular culture, I am proud to be a member of our Church. It is the only Church I know of that has not buckled in (either totally or in part) to the contraceptive, abortive, homosexual and other sexually immoral pressures. The Roman Catholic Church is the one religious institution that still upholds in its entirety, the moral teaching handed down through the centuries since Our Lord. Secular governments (laws) may have become depraved, but the Catholic Church (moral & doctrinal laws) has not.

 

[Nita]

How can a Catholic that relies on the Magisterium for Scriptural interpretation …

The Magisterium says the Catholic Church’s teachings are infallible, and so the faithful Catholic accepts that on faith. That is the best example of circular reasoning there is.

We don’t rely on the Magisterium to interpret Scripture – not in the sense you’re implying. We rely on the Magisterium to define doctrine. We read and interpret Scripture within the boundaries of those defined doctrines.

For example, the Magisterium has defined the doctrine of the Holy Trinity – three Persons in one God. So when we read Scripture we know it must be interpreted by us in a way that is in conformity with that doctrine. I’m sure you read Scripture in the same way if you are a Trinitarian Christian. You probably have many “doctrines” (Jesus is God; Savior;…) which guide your interpretation of Scripture. The only difference is that you rely on someone other than the Catholic Magisterium to decide what those doctrines are.

I am always surprised when non-Catholics think there is some sort official commentary of all the verses in the Bible which Catholics are compelled to accept. Where did such an idea come from?

 

[Justy90]

The Reformers labeled her the “Whore of Babylon.” Yet, by doing so, they utterly contradicted the express teaching of the sacred writer who, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said of the Church at Rome:

WRONG

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Sorry I haven’t responded sooner - been busy!

krew07 wrote:

well, last time looked, the Vatican was full of hypocritical power hungry lunatics.

Who’s “power hungry”???

As for the sexual scandals you mentioned, while the Church deplores such behavior in her bad members, this in no way detracts from the truths she holds and which she always and everywhere professes. Let us also be mindful of the following:

Regarding such criticism, St. Augustine says: “They close their eyes to the good and exaggerate only the evil, real or imagined.”

Luther too, in his Dictata super Psalterium (Dictations on the Psalter) * echoed similar sentiments: “Heretics cannot themselves appear good unless they depict the Church as evil, false, and mendacious. They alone wish to be esteemed as the good, but the Church must be made to appear evil in every respect.”
See, Luther and Lutherdom, 1917, 2009, Heinrich Denifle, Raymund Volz, ISBN 1112168176 ISBN: 978-1112168178, Introduction, p. 15.

• What Luther Says, p. 1590 where we read re the Dictations upon the Psalter: “This is Luther’s first major work. It was begun in the summer of 1513 and was concluded at the end of 1515.”

And a word of advice from Augustine: “My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church, by declaiming against the conduct of men whom the Church herself condemns, seeking daily to correct them as wicked children.”
Of the Morals of the Catholic Church, 34:76.

Agape Thom wrote:

I believe that at the time Paul wrote this the church in Rome was a relatively small group of people.

Actually, the Roman senator and historian Tacitus (ca. 56 – ca. 117), tells us that the city of Rome was quite overflowing with Christians at the time of Paul’s writing!

“… Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians … Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an IMMENSE MULTITUDE was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. …
Tacitus on Christ – Wikipedia.

See also search results for: Tacitus “multitudo ingens” (“immense multitude”):
google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=Tacitus+&as_epq=multitudo+ingens&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images
books.google.com/books?hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=Tacitus%20%20%22multitudo%20ingens%22&sa=N&tab=wp

It was not, in any way, the hierarchal system and organization that we call the “Church of Rome” today. In fact, it was simply a local group of Christian people.

Absolutely not true! The Church did indeed have a hierarchy from the beginning viz, Apostles, bishops, priests, deacons etc.

And let us be mindful of this crucial point: The Church in the first three centuries was persecuted! As a consequence, the Church (including the hierarchy) was forced underground. Naturally, therefore, we would not expect to see a highly visible hierarchy during these first centuries of persecution.

“As Prof. Vittorio Peri, a Catholic member of the Joint International Commission, discussed “The Role of the Bishop of Rome in Ecumenical Councils.” From the very beginning the Church had “a hierarchy of moral and organizational authority,” although centuries of persecution obscured that structure.”
Restoring Communion between East and West.

But once these persecutions stopped and the Church was free to emerge from the catacombs and into the light of day, what do we find? We find the Church at Rome still being universally acknowledged as the center of unity and the source of doctrinal purity! We know this to be true from the writings of the Fathers, who recognized Rome’s preeminence from apostolic times.

Jon Hus wrote:

What about Paul’s good words for [other churches]:
1 Cor 1:2-9
Eph 1:15-23
Phi 1: 5-11
Col 1:3-8
1 Thess 1:4-10

Yes, yes! But where are these local churches now?

Departed Light asks:

Why would a Church that was just spoken of as having the fullness of the Truth have to be boldly reminded of anything [in Rom. 15:15]?

Well, one might just as well ask, why do you yourself, for example, go to church? Is it not so as to hear the same gospel, the same truth, over and over and over again? Why should you need to be reminded of that truth which you already possess?

But to answer your question more directly:

Owing to the weakness of human nature, the depth of Sacred truth, and fierceness with which the gates of hell oppose it, the Church must absolutely have a constant reminder of her sacred “deposit of faith.”

This is why Christ promised the Holy Spirit – to guide and protect his One Church from error throughout all the ages of time. We see this protection of the Holy Spirit in history, in Sacred Tradition. And this is why the Church can be (and is) called the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

Further, DL said:

There is no way this verse in Romans points to the Catholic Church having the fullness of the truth. Even a simpleton like me can see that.

I see. Well, if not the Catholic Church, then which church, prey tell??

 

[raumzeitmc2]

In continuation:

If the Catholic poster on these board chides the non-Catholic with the argument that the Church’s Magisterium provides the correct interpretation of Scripture, then the Catholic when using Scriptures must provide something from that Magisterium to show the non-Catholic that he is using Scripture in accordance with Catholic teachings and not his own personal interpretation.

Augustine teaches that the Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ Letter 185:50) and the Catholic Church agrees with this.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the Head and Saviour of His body. Ephesians 5:23 Outside this body the Holy Spirit gives life to no one seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” Romans 5:5 but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity.

newadvent.org/fathers/1102185.htm

See this also
The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ by Fr. William G. Most

If the Magisterium has all the teaching one needs, why even read or attempt to apply Scripture to your life outside the Liturgy?

Well, for that matter, why even have a bible? I mean, why not just simply condense all the teachings of Christianity clearly and explicitly into a few pages and be done with it?

The idea that the Church in Rome at the time of Paul’s writing is anything like the Church of Rome today is simply laughable. The time, the circumstances, the culture, the ruling authorities are all vastly different. How can anyone attempt to make that comparison with a straight face?

I would think it far more “laughable” to follow the teachings of immoral so-called reformers (but that’s another topic)!

But the fact is, the Church is Christ, and therefore, like Christ, she does not change. Yet, who would not see that she grows and develops in her Mystical Body even as Christ in his human body grew and developed?

And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man. Luke 2:52

But if you want a real “bible church,” you’ll have to put yourself under the authority of the apostles, just as the early Christians had to do. And think of the advantages! Why, with a living apostle, all these disputes among Christians could be settled at a word! Who then wouldn’t prefer the authority (final and absolute) of a living apostle to just having a bible? And yet, I have never found a single Protestant who would prefer such authority to their own private interpretations! Most flee in horror at the very thought! And understandably, for then there could be no more Protest, and thus no more Protestantism! Ah, but since Satan was the first Protestant, there may still be an out! LOL!!!

The Magisterium says the Catholic Church’s teachings are infallible, and so the faithful Catholic accepts that on faith. That is the best example of circular reasoning there is.

Well, let’s take this one step at a time. Do you agree that the Scripture teaches that the Roman Church was infallible?

Since there is no document from the Magisterium that has the interpretation of all of Scripture how does the faithful Catholic even know what the correct interpretation is other than it has to line up with already establish Catholic teaching?

It is not the function of the Magisterium to define “all of Scripture.” It’s function is to safeguard Tradition and to define, when necessary, certain doctrines.

At a minimum has the Magisterium declared what the official correct interpretation of Romans 15:14 is? If so, let’s see it. Why discuss it if the Church has spoken on it?

And if the Church has not spoken on it – how can Catholics use their own private interpretation when, as we non-Catholics are told 15 times a day on these forums, that is a complete no-go for the Catholic faithful?

The Catholic Church has most certainly spoken of it by the very fact that she teaches that she, and she alone, is the One Church founded by Christ. Thus it is understood (by the Church) that, when Scripture speaks of “the Church,” it is in reference to this same Catholic Church, founded by Christ, and whose highest bishop is the bishop of the Rome.

And just how many questions can I ask in a single post anyway?

Ask away!

God bless.