St. Peter and St. Paul believed that God is the God of Jesus...how then can they have believed Jesus is God as well?

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VociMike said:
MH84, can you please clarify your position? Are you rejecting some Catholic teaching regarding the nature of Christ and/or the Trinity? If so, what is it exactly that you are rejecting?
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How does this answer my question? Are you trying to make me feel bad or something?

I have been Catholic all my life. Im just wanting to see the evidence that the early Christians believed that Jesus was God in the same way we do.

Your question is trying to isolate me. I just want the truth. If you look at some other threads relating to the divinity of Jesus you will see a lot of unanswered threads because a lot of us don’t know the answers. People’s questions are not being answered properly.

For example: a common rebuttal will be for someone to tell another person to llok at John 1:1 and John 8:58. And if the person is still not sure they should just accept the Church’s teaching. Two or three verses don’t make a doctrine.

There are more verses which imply the subordination of Jesus to God than there are of Jesus being called God. I agree that Jesus refers to Himself in the divine name in Jn 8:58, but nearly everywhere else Jesus is subordinate to the Father. Peter and Paul didn’t believe Jesus was equal to the Father.

Look at these verses:

Acts 2:36
Acts 10:38
1 Corinthians 15:27-28
Jesus refers to his Father as “My God” in the Gospels.
There are others.
 
John_Hiner said:
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

There are two issues raised here. But, neither should give much difficulty.

First is the question is Christ’s relationship to the Most Holy Trinity. In this context, Christ is One of Three.

The human metaphor is a man employed by a corporation as a member of the board of directors. He is a member of the entity, which is his employer. The man can easily be said to be both a representative of the committee and answerable to it. This metaphor is not perfect, but it points firmly in the direction of understanding how someone who is as much a member of the board as any other member might also address the board as his employer and act as its delegate to the world outside.

** But if someone is a director of a company, the other directors are not the directors of that **director.

Furthermore, where does the Holy Spirit fit into this? In these verses in the OP, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, only God and Jesus. Is the Holy Spirit the God of Jesus?

In some senses, the language used by and about Christ arises from this reality.

The second issue is the relationship between Christ and God the Father. They love each other absolutely. The Father gives all that He is and all that He has to the Son. The Son is the Father’s God. In turn, the Son loves the Father absolutely; He gives all that He is and all that He has to the Father. The Father is the Son’s God.

This sounds good but it doesnt mean that the Son is equal to God. Can we say that the Son is the God of the Father? I doubt it. No one would say this.

This absolute love is difficult for human’s to conceive, because it takes what we can taste of Christian love and challenges us to conceive of it in the divine absolute. In some sense, the language used by and about Christ arises from this reality as well.

** Ive heard this a few times. Its true, but it is used when someone doesnt know how to explain something. **

The combination of these relationships makes the phrases quoted perfectly correct. Further, it is in part the presence of such phrases in the Scripture that gives us a glimpse into the truth of these relationships within the Most Holy Trinity. These are truths to which we would have no access, but through the revelation given by Jesus Christ. It is not that the Apostles were struggling to come to understand. They were expressing something that mankind had not suspected and so their language challenges preconceptions.

** How can God have a God? Jesus is a divine Person, not a human Person (although he took on a human nature). After Jesus ascended into His glory, Sts. Peter and Paul still say God is the God of Jesus. Paul even says that Jesus will be eternally subject to God in 1 Corithians 15:27-28. How can Paul say this, but still think that Jesus was his Creator?**

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
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JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

MH84, I have a couple of questions for you:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Are you in doubts about this? If so, is there something or someone who has caused this?

** I do, but I have doubts. I have been having doubts over the past year or so. The truth of the Church is no longer clear to me. My faith is not the same anymore. Im confused and unsure. **

What forms of proof are you looking for? Do you think that is must be explicit in the Bible for it to be true? What do you think of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium? Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

** I want to see that the writers of the NT believed Jesus to clearly be God. But I don’t see this. If the early Christians believed this they would have been more clear. Catholics say that the believe in the Holy Trinity is the central aspect of the Faith, but its not clearly stated in the word of God. **

What is your goal here? What do you hope to accomplish in these threads? Are you trying to convince others or have others convince you?

** Whats the point of this? Can’t you answer the questions? I want to see the truth. There is conflicting messages about Jesus in the bible.

I hope all these questions you have asked me have a point other than to make me feel guilty. **
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JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

In regards to the question of this thread, look at this section from the Athanasian Creed, which the Catholic Church holds to be authoritative:

…Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ…
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This was written around 300 years after Christ and the NT was written. Do you see all of these passages in the Athanasian creed written in the scriptures?
 
MH84 said:
There are more verses which imply the subordination of Jesus to God than there are of Jesus being called God. I agree that Jesus refers to Himself in the divine name in Jn 8:58, but nearly everywhere else Jesus is subordinate to the Father. Peter and Paul didn’t believe Jesus was equal to the Father.
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Maybe I understand your position. To support your position that Jesus is not equal to the Father, you can also cite Math 14:28 which says, “…the Father is greater than I.”
But don’t get Peter and Paul wrong. St. Paul said, “Have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who though he was by nature God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to be clung to, but emptied himself taking the nature of a slave and being made like unto man.”

Humility would help understand the words of Jesus.
 
agangbern said:
Maybe I understand your position. To support your position that Jesus is not equal to the Father, you can also cite Math 14:28 which says, “…the Father is greater than I.”
But don’t get Peter and Paul wrong. St. Paul said, “Have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who though he was by nature God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to be clung to, but emptied himself taking the nature of a slave and being made like unto man.”

Humility would help understand the words of Jesus.
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Philippians 2 is not clear and there are different translations. The translation you bring up is too good to be true. Other translations say that Jesus was “in the form of God”. That seems to be more ambiguous.

This is a good proof for the divinity of Christ though.

Humility is important, you are right. I try to read the bible humbly but sometimes I read certain passages that makes me wonder about Christ, then I start losing hope.

Addition:
This is what the NJB says:

“Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped.”

Did not count equality with God something to be grasped (as opposed to “clung to”), seems slightly different, as if Jesus never had equality. But then, Im not sure. As far as Im concerned Philippians 2 does show some proof of His divinity.
 
MH84 said:
Philippians 2 is not clear and there are different translations. The translation you bring up is too good to be true. Other translations say that Jesus was “in the form of God”. That seems to be more ambiguous.

This is a good proof for the divinity of Christ though.

Humility is important, you are right. I try to read the bible humbly but sometimes I read certain passages that makes me wonder about Christ, then I start losing hope.
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Please don’t lost hope. Hope is one of the fruits of the Spirit, you know. Therefore, to lose hope would be a sin against the Holy Spirit.
That translation actually is from the Douay version. In the event that you get confused as to translations, just remember that it is the Church who decides which translation is to be followed. Not only that, it is the Church that decides what is the correct interpretation of a passage of the bible.
 
MH84 said:
How does this answer my question? Are you trying to make me feel bad or something?

I have been Catholic all my life. Im just wanting to see the evidence that the early Christians believed that Jesus was God in the same way we do.

Your question is trying to isolate me. I just want the truth. If you look at some other threads relating to the divinity of Jesus you will see a lot of unanswered threads because a lot of us don’t know the answers. People’s questions are not being answered properly.
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Whoa there! Nobody’s trying to isolate you, we’re just trying to understand what you’re asking, and what, if anything, you’re claiming. Can I gather from your reply then that you accept the teachings of the Church on Christ and the Trinity, and are simply asking an historical question?

What you seem to be doing, BTW, is approaching scripture in a Protestant manner. You seem to be assuming that doctrine comes from scripture, when in fact doctrine is the source of scripture. The teachings came first, and are reflected in greater or lesser clarity in scripture. Catholics don’t look to scripture for doctrine, only for confirmation of doctrine. But weak confirmation (as judged by one’s particular interpretation) does not therefore invalidate a doctrine.

Now, lest I be accused again of not answering your questions, my answer is I don’t know precisely what the early Christians believed about the nature of Christ. I do know that, like every doctrine of the Church, this doctrine was clarified over time.
 
Was Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel) were they not Israelities God’s choosen people they were not know at that time as Jews were they? Jesus called Abraham is Father and told us Sara was our mother for those who believe In God. Israel is the apple of God’s eye is he not? God fufilled the promise to Abraham through his son Jesus Christ did he not? Those who accept and believe now are saved because now we all come from the seed of Abraham to whom the promise was given.

Jesus was “one” with God. There is only “one God”, “one Kingdom” “one nation” “one Church” “one family”. We are all called to become “one in God” There is "only one thought and all move as “one”. Jesus said: As I am “one” in you ( God the Holy Father of all) and you are “one” in me, so I pray also that they will be “one” in me as I am “one” in you. We all seek to become “one in God” Like a husband and wife become “one body” so the same with all of God’s children. St. Paul said: this is the mystery of a man and woman who become “one”

A father and mother become “one” when a convent in marriage is promised. When the convent is broken the two are no longer “ONE”. When the convent is not broken,they are no longer two, but become “one body” Over and over it was not God who broke the convent, but we ourselves. But now that Jesus as come it was not broken. God’s promise was fulfilled, finally once and for all.Now the parents have a child. The child is “one” with the father and mother. For the child is of the Father and the child is of the mother. The child also is the son, separate yet the child is “one” with the parents. All are “one” But if the child is disobedient to the parents he no longer remain as “one” with them in “all things”.
But if he obeys and is faithful,the son remains as “ONE” with his parents in all things.

Yet the father is Head of His family and all are subject to the Father. That is the way God created, man first, woman came from man they became “ONE” and woman gives birth to man. Man and woman become subject to each other, they are “ONE” but man is the Head of his family that is the way God’s will and desired it to be!

Abraham is the Head of Jesus, Jesus is Head over the Church (us, his BRIDE) and the man, is Head of his family and God is Head over all. Yet all are “ONE”.

God said: Who set out to build a House and does not plan for all that is needed. God is a God of order over his House, his Kingdom. All are subject to God wanting only all that the Father desires and will’s for for his family.We have no thoughts, but only the thoughts of what God’s wills and desire and rejoice given all worship and praise to God, our Father.

All rejoice in God as “one” all move as “ONE” .God is all Holy so we also become “one in God” are to become all Holy. For what does good and evil have in common and a house divided cannot stand!

I know to some this will not be accepted for it seems very simple.

God Bless
 
planter654 said:
Was Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel) were they not Israelities God’s choosen people they were not know at that time as Jews were they? Jesus called Abraham is Father and told us Sara was our mother for those who believe In God. Israel is the apple of God’s eye is he not? God fufilled the promise to Abraham through his son Jesus Christ did he not? Those who accept and believe now are saved because now we all come from the seed of Abraham to whom the promise was given.

Jesus was “one” with God. There is only “one God”, “one Kingdom” “one nation” “one Church” “one family”. We are all called to become “one in God” There is "only one thought and all move as “one”. Jesus said: As I am “one” in you ( God the Holy Father of all) and you are “one” in me, so I pray also that they will be “one” in me as I am “one” in you. We all seek to become “one in God” Like a husband and wife become “one body” so the same with all of God’s children. St. Paul said: this is the mystery of a man and woman who become “one”

A father and mother become “one” when a convent in marriage is promised. When the convent is broken the two are no longer “ONE”. When the convent is not broken,they are no longer two, but become “one body” Over and over it was not God who broke the convent, but we ourselves. But now that Jesus as come it was not broken. God’s promise was fulfilled, finally once and for all.Now the parents have a child. The child is “one” with the father and mother. For the child is of the Father and the child is of the mother. The child also is the son, separate yet the child is “one” with the parents. All are “one” But if the child is disobedient to the parents he no longer remain as “one” with them in “all things”.
But if he obeys and is faithful,the son remains as “ONE” with his parents in all things.

Yet the father is Head of His family and all are subject to the Father. That is the way God created, man first, woman came from man they became “ONE” and woman gives birth to man. Man and woman become subject to each other, they are “ONE” but man is the Head of his family that is the way God’s will and desired it to be!

Abraham is the Head of Jesus, Jesus is Head over the Church (us, his BRIDE) and the man, is Head of his family and God is Head over all. Yet all are “ONE”.

God said: Who set out to build a House and does not plan for all that is needed. God is a God of order over his House, his Kingdom. All are subject to God wanting only all that the Father desires and will’s for for his family.We have no thoughts, but only the thoughts of what God’s wills and desire and rejoice given all worship and praise to God, our Father.

All rejoice in God as “one” all move as “ONE” .God is all Holy so we also become “one in God” are to become all Holy. For what does good and evil have in common and a house divided cannot stand!

Jesus came to pay the debts of our sins and also to reteach the laws for we were all under bondage. Jesus said: You are set free indeed, do you want to go back under bondage. Jesus reconciled us to God who accept the perfect unblemish gift. that do one could ever pay in full for the price was to High. It is finished once and for all!! God gave us his commandments laws, percepts, ordinances and statues. Obey God for he loves us all dearly.

God said: My yoke is not heavy. Serve or not serve etc. etc. I believe whether we believe or not believe we all are in the hands of God. Praise and Glory to God! Through God’s grace we did not earn we all have been set free from being underbondage and have been given hope, but repent, believe, obey for God holds the keys to eternal damnation. Jesus said: " oh death, oh death were art thou sting?

I know to some this will not be accepted for it seems very simple.

God Bless
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Beleive in God our Creator, his son Jesus Christ for Jesus did not suffer in vain. God forces no one to Love Him who wants that kind of Love. Accept or not accept Gods infinite mercy, for God does not want to lose one soul for whom he loves dearly. Repent with all your heart, soul, mind, strength in Loving God. For God is all Holy, all Scared.

Be obedient to our loving Holy Father. We are all called to become Holy. But sin no more. Serve one another as Jesus Christ served us and Christ was KING OF KINGS. Be subject to whom God has choosen, his elect. Take care of the widows, orphans, poor, hunger, for Jesus became poor for our sake. Love one another, serve one another. Love thy enemies as you love thy self. For Jesus came when we were all his enemies. Keep your conscience clear and your hands busy, Beware of idols…St. Paul

God Bless.
 
Be obedient to whom God has choosen. God’s elect, the Catholic Church. For God said “no one” is placed in that position except by the power of God to whom he has choosen.

God Bless.
 
Seek to become “ONE” in God,in the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. For God said; “you need not look far”. Talk to him. For all those who in truth believe, repent in faith through Jesus Christ, make up his church, his bride.

God Bless
 
planter654 said:
Abraham is the Head of Jesus, Jesus is Head over the Church (us, his BRIDE) and the man, is Head of his family and God is Head over all. Yet all are “ONE”.
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Hello, planter654! I find you cute! Please allow me to say “NO” to your statement that Abraham is the Head of Jesus. No. I cannot understand it, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham, I am.” Christ was already there even before Abraham was born. How is that?
 
agangbern said:
Hello, planter654! I find you cute! Please allow me to say “NO” to your statement that Abraham is the Head of Jesus. No. I cannot understand it, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham, I am.” Christ was already there even before Abraham was born. How is that?
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Yes so it is written in the Bible I will find it and give it to you ok.

God Bless
 
MH84 said:
  1. The Old Testament writer couldnt have thought that God had a God when this psalm was written.
  2. How do you know that “God, your God” is not referring to the same being. eg. *Father, my father *or Bobby, (my dear)Bobby, has returned?
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It is possible that the writer did not have the full grasp of what he was writing. But, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write not what he believes but what God wanted him to reveal of Himself in the form of writing. And, he may not even be aware that he was being inspired to write.
 
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MH84:
Pray to the Lord. Ask Him to grant you understanding and strengthen you faith.

No amount of intellectual wrestling can erase your doubts. Our sharing may help but will always be limited. Only God can ultimately help you.

Your doubt as it appears to me is bordering to total rejection of Christian Faith without which no one can be saved.

What do you want in life? Life without Jesus? But Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Him. I want to be saved and no else except Jesus promised eternal salvation for those who seek it. Believing in Jesus means believing in those whom He sent, the Apostles headed by St. Peter who, in turn, appointed successors, now the Bishops headed by the Pope, to teach all nations from generation to generation until the end of the world about Salvation in Jesus Christ. We have to trust in the Church as a trust to Christ who promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Why don’t you try to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church side by side with the Bible and Lives of the Saints? And avoid reading protestant and mundane books.
 
agangbern said:
OK. You can show me the passage that says, “Abraham is head of Christ.”
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Sorry you! I found this one thou, right here in Corinthians Chapter 11 verse 3 " But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

Christ is our confessor now.

Interesting

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the “firstfruits” of those who have fallen asleep. Our for fathers were taken up with him also? Since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.

God Bless
 
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