St Peter Nolasco

[laszlo]

In the Tridentine rite of the more modern times the Church celebrates St Peter Nolasco. He was a rich Frenchman in the 12th Century, who gave away everything even his personal freedom. Other saints left the world and got the warmth of a religious community, the constant availability of the sacraments. He, and the members of his order sold themselves to free others from the bondage of the moors. They lost the warmth of the Christian community, the availability of the Sacraments. They are the proof, that all those are not the end, all those (Church, Sacraments, Mass) are temporary, perishing part of the way; the only end is God.

One more thought about his feast. In time of St Pius V St Peter Nolasco had no feast, today St Agnes was celebrated second time, remembering that Constance the daughter of Emperor Constantine was miraculously cured by praying for her intercession. The new rite celebrates St Thomas Aquinas today. There is no such thing as eternal Liturgy, the liturgy is human, and like everything human is perishing. Only God and the new Earth and Heaven will be eternal.

 

[japhy]

They are the proof, that all those are not the end, all those (Church, Sacraments, Mass) are temporary, perishing part of the way; the only end is God.

I would agree that the Church, the sacraments, and the Mass are not “the end” – the end is God. But the Church is not “temporary” or “perishing”, any more than her members are “temporary” or “perishing” (except in a mortal and temporal sense). The Church is the Body of Christ, both in time and in eternity.

There is no such thing as eternal Liturgy, the liturgy is human, and like everything human is perishing. Only God and the new Earth and Heaven will be eternal.

Again, I think a distinction needs to be made: there is an eternal liturgy, which is perpetually celebrated in Heaven. The various forms of participation in that heavenly liturgy (and here I am speaking of the Catholic and Orthodox Rites) are man-made to some degree, but they all contain immutable divine elements. (I do not think the majority of the liturgical calendar counts as a divinely-established and immutable element!)

We too will be eternal. And Hell, too, if I’m not mistaken.

 

[laszlo]

I would agree that the Church, the sacraments, and the Mass are not “the end” – the end is God. But the Church is not “temporary” or “perishing”, any more than her members are “temporary” or “perishing” (except in a mortal and temporal sense). The Church is the Body of Christ, both in time and in eternity.

Naturaly I meant the Militant Church, and the visible connections

Again, I think a distinction needs to be made: there is an eternal liturgy, which is perpetually celebrated in Heaven. The various forms of participation in that heavenly liturgy (and here I am speaking of the Catholic and Orthodox Rites) are man-made to some degree, but they all contain immutable divine elements. (I do not think the majority of the liturgical calendar counts as a divinely-established and immutable element!)

We too will be eternal. And Hell, too, if I’m not mistaken.

I would call that immutabile part heavenly worship, not liturgy. We did not get revelation about about the last things but unlikely that we would need species instead of the real presence, and other religions also symbols instead of the real presence. The beatific vision will make it unnecessary to capture what is incomprehensible through visible things.

 

[japhy]

japhy:

Again, I think a distinction needs to be made: there is an eternal liturgy, which is perpetually celebrated in Heaven.

I would call that immutabile part heavenly worship, not liturgy.

I would call it the “Divine Liturgy”.

 

[laszlo]

I would call it the “Divine Liturgy”.

The gustibus and nominibus not est distuputandum. Regardless

Definition of LITURGY
1
often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2
: a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3
: a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

In any way, we can not say that the TLM is eternal, the new rite is not.

 

[japhy]

The gustibus and nominibus not est distuputandum. Regardless

Definition of LITURGY
1: often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2: a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3: a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

For what it’s worth, I was speaking from the perspective of Catechism 1069 and the book of Revelation.

In any way, we can not say that the TLM is eternal, the new rite is not.

Right you are. I think that sentiment is more commonly expressed in the Traditional Catholicism forum than in this one, though. But I do agree with you.