St. Peter's Grave, Tomb and Bones

[ParadiseLost]

I thought this might be of interest to this group as it falls within your guidelines “…examine historical controversies”.

I am an Atheist* and a Roman History buff (Rome the City).
And early Early Christianity has a big tie-in with Rome’s ancient history and so my interest.

I have visited the necropolis beneath St. Peter’s Basilica 4x and have seen the tomb and bones of St. Peter.

Being non-bias I personally believe that it is in fact St. Peter’s Grave and his later hidden tomb and those are his bones from the original earth grave.

I looked at all the evidence and to me it’s the only logical conclusion that can be reached with a very good degree of certainty.

I posted all this on a History/Archaeology Usenet Newsgroup if you are interested.

tinyurl.com/petermuzzy5

Also follow the thread as there is more info that comes-out during the debate.

If you have any problems with the URL’s I posted in that thread the original post out of thread is here;
tinyurl.com/petermuzzy44

And another fall-back is this Fodor’s messageboard link tinyurl.com/petermuzzy4 as a last resort as it’s not as detailed as the other.

*p.s. I’m not a raving card-carrying Atheist and I have no problems
with religion.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Excellent.

So, there is strong evidence to support the idea that Peter really is buried in the Necropolis. Does this suggest to you that other claims of early Christians (including those of Peter himself) might also be true?

 

[ParadiseLost]

Excellent.So, there is strong evidence to support the idea that Peter really is buried in the Necropolis. Does this suggest to you that other claims of early Christians (including those of Peter himself) might also be true?

Well I do believe in an Historical Jesus Christ and there is very good evidence that St. Paul as a Roman Citizen received a Roman death (beheading) and proper burial by Christians.His marked (shrine) grave was well-known and visited by the early Christians and the location was passed-on.In 384 a church is built over the grave and later another church is build and his remains are interred beneath the altar.(I also believe Constantine put something on the site?)IMO there is no reason to doubt that from the 60’sAD to the 384 Church his grave site was ever lost. A sarcophagus was found beneath the altar a few years ago and the bone fragments dated to that time frame.Josephus although his Jesus-Pilate passage was greatly embellished by later Christian writers many scholars believe it has an authentic core and he did record Jesus’ trial and crucifixion.Most scholars believe his ‘James’ (brother of Jesus?) passage is authentic.Plus I believe Pilate is mentioned 2 other times in a different context?So yes I do believe that many of the claims made by the early Christians are true.

 

[Loving_disciple]

Cool I love Roman history to

 

[ServantPD]

First of all, welcome to the CA Forums. I think it’s awesome that you came in to show this information, and I thank you for it.

I’ll be truly honest, I had my doubts if those bones really belonged to Peter, or that any remains of major figures like him and St. Paul were still around and accurately pointed at. Seeing what you wrote down about the subject makes me more sure about the authenticity of St. Peter’s grave. I was an atheist, and there are still some things that they directly link to historical points from 2,000 years ago, and I still keep a skeptical nerve on that matter. Your lack of a bias makes me more certain on what you’re honestly saying to us.

On another note, do you have any idea if the Church does really make the staffs of the bishops third-degree relics of Peter? Or, in layman’s terms, do they really go down to the necropolis to touch the staffs of the newly-elected bishops on the bones of St. Peter or something of the sort for them to be more linked with the Saint? Or do you simply have no idea about that subject? It just seems weird to me when a seminarian told me, and it could bring potential damage (not even if minimal) to the body.
I could go on and smash you with questions like this, like if the bones show wounds of crucifixion or something, but what you brought up is more than enough for me to be satisfied!

Josephus although his Jesus-Pilate passage was greatly embellished by later Christian writers many scholars believe it has an authentic core and he did record Jesus’ trial and crucifixion.Most scholars believe his ‘James’ (brother of Jesus?) passage is authentic.Plus I believe Pilate is mentioned 2 other times in a different context?So yes I do believe that many of the claims made by the early Christians are true.

Also things that I was highly interested to know, thanks! It’s usually argued that the passage in Josephus was completely forged, and that was with I was going with.
There’s a passage about a James? Well, there are three main ones. There’s James the Greater, one of the main apostles, and whose remains are reputedly in Santiago de Compostela in Galiccia. He died around the reign of Herod Antipas or Herod Agrippa, according to the New Testament, which leaves his martyrdom at around the 30’s or early 40’s AD. Then there’s James the Less, St. Matthew’s brother, but not much is known about him, so I don’t think it’d be much of a subject of interest for Josephus. And there’s James the Just, a half-brother or cousin of Jesus who, as far I’m concerned, was present in the Council of Jerusalem (placing his martyrdom after 50 AD) and killed by the Romans. I’m no expert in this, but I think you’re right about being James the Just.

Thanks again for your post, I really enjoyed it! :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well I do believe in an Historical Jesus Christ and there is very good evidence that St. Paul as a Roman Citizen received a Roman death (beheading) and proper burial by Christians.His marked (shrine) grave was well-known and visited by the early Christians and the location was passed-on.In 384 a church is built over the grave and later another church is build and his remains are interred beneath the altar.(I also believe Constantine put something on the site?)IMO there is no reason to doubt that from the 60’sAD to the 384 Church his grave site was ever lost. A sarcophagus was found beneath the altar a few years ago and the bone fragments dated to that time frame.Josephus although his Jesus-Pilate passage was greatly embellished by later Christian writers many scholars believe it has an authentic core and he did record Jesus’ trial and crucifixion.Most scholars believe his ‘James’ (brother of Jesus?) passage is authentic.Plus I believe Pilate is mentioned 2 other times in a different context?So yes I do believe that many of the claims made by the early Christians are true.

Good for you.

Keep reading!

 

[Randy_Carson]

BTW, anyone wanting to take a virtual tour of the Necropolis can do so here:

vatican.va/various/basiliche/necropoli/scavi_english.html

This is an amazing thing to watch.

 

[Peebo]

Paradise Lost…
You may call yourself an atheist but you sound like you believe more about Catholicism than many Catholics profess…I pray that one day our God will be your God…we need more good Catholics…

 

[KP3243]

Thanks for the post! I am glad to see Atheists on the message boards. I enjoy speaking with Atheists, I have a few friends who are atheist and they are super kind and respectful of my beliefs. I was really impressed with Penn Gillett when he was on Piers Morgan right after Pope Benedict announced he was stepping down, he absolutely destroys Piers Morgan who is a Catholic in the interview which I think surprised Morgan who I think was under the impression that Gillett was going to mock or have a lighthearted discussion about Benedict and religion, instead Gillette went the complete opposite direction and he was completely thoughtful, logical and 100% correct in his assessment of Catholic beliefs and was gracious about Pope Benedict. Gillett clearly spent time looking into what the Catholic faith was about.

Please share more if you find things!

 

[KP3243]

Paradise Lost…
You may call yourself an atheist but you sound like you believe more about Catholicism than many Catholics profess…I pray that one day our God will be your God…we need more good Catholics…

I don’t think this is that uncommon, I think a good number of Atheists do seek truth and don’t just assume since you cannot scientifically prove God that the argument is immediately over. My friend who is an atheist says the fact that you and so many other people I know are so radically in love with a person named Jesus gives me a reason to pause and at least take a look at what you believe. He says logically speaking something fake could never last 2,000 years and grow instead of decline. He still cannot wrap his head around faith but he knows a lot about Christianity and Catholicism probably more than a lot of Catholics I know.

 

[pablope]

I am not sure if you are aware…there is actually a book about the search for Peter’s grave…amazon.com/The-Bones-St-Peter-Fascinating/dp/0385150393

 

[marymary1975]

I don’t think this is that uncommon, I think a good number of Atheists do seek truth and don’t just assume since you cannot scientifically prove God that the argument is immediately over. My friend who is an atheist says the fact that you and so many other people I know are so radically in love with a person named Jesus gives me a reason to pause and at least take a look at what you believe. He says logically speaking something fake could never last 2,000 years and grow instead of decline. He still cannot wrap his head around faith but he knows a lot about Christianity and Catholicism probably more than a lot of Catholics I know.

Welcome to CAF, OP your links are very interesting.

Also with regard to the above quote, this is true, I have a good friend who is scientist and an atheist, very rational, who says that being objective, there is a good chance that historically all the claims made by .Christianity are right. I also have heard similar things to what the OP posted from an atheist archaeologist.

 

[ParadiseLost]

ServantPD; I don’t know yet how to selectively quote sections of a post so this must do for now.

Bishops’ Staffs; The bones are in a number of compartmented plexiglass boxes with 2 on display in the small hole in the ‘Graffiti Wall’ Tomb.
So it would be easy with a person assisting to avoid damage to the Wall to touch the staff to the plexiglass box.

Crucifixion bone damage; Remember all of both foot bones are missing which suggests the nailed ankles were just cut-off to remove the body.
The arms are always tied even if wrist/hand nails were used and they are only used for the pain factor.

And Josephus uses the ‘James the Brother of Jesus’ which is in the website below also.

For the authenticity of Josephus’ account of Jesus and Pilate read this; www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm

IMO The only conclusion that you can draw unless you are an extremist of the ‘Jesus never existed faction’ is that the core of the passage is authentic to Josephus.

This is the embellished Josephus’ passage written by later Christians.

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure.
He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.
He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.
And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.”

The majority of modern scholars who accept the “partial authenticity” theory (likely ~80%) believe at a “minimum” this is actually what Josephus wrote in 93AD;

“At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure.
And he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin.
And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so.
And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out.”

 

[ParadiseLost]

I am not sure if you are aware…there is actually a book about the search for Peter’s grave…amazon.com/The-Bones-St-Peter-Fascinating/dp/0385150393

Yes it’s online here and also the other book by the archaeologist who discovered the misplaced bone boxes and deciphered the graffiti on the ‘Graffiti Wall’ esp the very major ‘Peter is Within’ graffito.

www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/JW/TheBonesofStPeter-1.htm
—(OR)— tinyurl.com/tbosp

www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/MG/TheTombofStPeter-1.htm

—(OR)— tinyurl.com/bmoo3gj

 

[KP3243]

You might enjoy Dr. Taylor Marshall’s book The Eternal City

 

[JohnR77]

Yes it’s online here

Greetings.
Welcome to the forum.
When I use your link I get a warning about a virus.
However, when I use the link from my page below (without the “www” there is no warning.

defendingthebride.com/ss/peter/index.html

Thanks for the info.
John

 

[ServantPD]

This is super-awesome information, thanks again for sharing it.

The idea that St Peter’s ankle bones were simply cut off due to damage of the nailing may even reinforce the idea that his crucixion was really done upside-down. It feels to me that what I thought to be just legends are slowly gaining life. Not that I disbelieved them, and I did think that the existence of the Apostles and (at least some) of the events in the beggining of the Church as described in the Book of Acts were the only proper explanation to have such a sudden appearance of Christianity (it was indeed, one of the main reasons I eventually converted). But I thought their ways of being martyred and the fact that we knew where the bones were was a bit of an embellished touch. If both remains of Peter and Paul have reasons to be authentic (even though it can’t be proved 100%), I guess I could be a bit more open-minded on this matter.

And I’ve read a bit of the website you’ve pointed me out (I’m going to spend an entire day reading all of this you pointed out throughout the thread, I’m a fan of history! ), and it shows a way of analysis of historic documents I’ve never seen before. I’m pretty interested in seeing in more detail how you build your arguments in favour or against certain expressions of this Josephan passage. But for now, I think that if the authorities on this matter find it partially authentic, I can’t see why I couldn’t as well.

Thanks again for all of this, it’s really interesting to me!

 

[ParadiseLost]

The idea that St Peter’s ankle bones were simply cut off due to damage of the nailing may even reinforce the idea that his crucixion was really done upside-down.

I always try and put myself there at that moment in time for any historical event, human nature is human nature.

It’s the end of the day at Nero’s small Circus racetrack, everyone is gone and only the clean-up crew remains (slaves, Soldiers, employees?).

All the bodies must be removed, dragged away and buried likely in a big pit.

You have dead crucified bodies that must be taken down but their ankles are nailed and the nails must be saved and you just want to go home from this ****** job.

Imagine how hard it would be to pry the ankle nail out with no leverage?

So just cut-off the ankles, lift the crossbeam off and untie the victim and drag the body away.

Now it’s alot easier to get at the nails, wiggle it free or give it another chop on top cutting the ankle away and pull the nail free.

I’ve read of an instance where family members have bribed these underpaid people for their loved one’s body at an execution event like this before.

There is a pauper’s cemetery 100m away and they have a dead body, it’s getting dark and they are outside the Walls of Rome.

Plus it’s not like these early Christians are walking around with a Christian symbol on their clothes.
They are members of Rome’s Jewish community completely free to walk around the city and Romans see them daily.

It’s unlikely that every single Christian was rounded-up, so what we have is Christian Jews also burned-out of their homes with many living outside the Walls of Rome and Nero has opened-up his Villa Gardens to the refugees right next to this Circus.

So for a few Jews to be with the vast Mob watching this event and hanging around afterwards is nothing out of the ordinary.

It’s easy to imagine for a few coins to the poor burial/clean-up crew on the sly that they would give them a dead body… What do they care?

As far a Peter being crucified upside-down who knows?
It could be true or a later legend, IIRC the 1st record we have of it was over 100+yrs later.
Which doesn’t prove or disprove it.

I’m pretty interested in seeing in more detail how you build your arguments in favour or against certain expressions of this Josephan passage. But for now, I think that if the authorities on this matter find it partially authentic, I can’t see why I couldn’t as well.

For something like that I must go with the experts in that field with all those letters after their names, I look at the Pro and Con opinions.
If the majority is Pro I must except it as true or go out and get a PhD in that field?

An example I’ve often used is; Scientists tell us that light travels a 186,282 miles per second, how could I ever disprove that so I must accept it as fact.

 

[KP3243]

We will have to get you on the Shroud of Turin next! For whatever reason the Shroud photographs a better image than what it produces with the visible eye. The shroud behaves like a photo negative. In person you have to stand about 10 feet away to see anything but the photographs that were taken of are so much clearer and you can see a face. The theory the Church has is that the moment soul of Christ was reunited with His body after defeating death and releasing the holy souls in limbo, an insanely large force of light or something happened to produce this image, they also have just found out that it was repaired in the middle ages because the herringbone pattern shows signs of repair and the zig zags in certain spots are in different direction and we believe that is why the carbon dating has been so off, the Church I don’t believe has let anyone cut or take samples anywhere near the body only by the corners.

 

[ServantPD]

I always try and put myself there at that moment in time for any historical event, human nature is human nature.

It’s the end of the day at Nero’s small Circus racetrack, everyone is gone and only the clean-up crew remains (slaves, Soldiers, employees?).

All the bodies must be removed, dragged away and buried likely in a big pit.

You have dead crucified bodies that must be taken down but their ankles are nailed and the nails must be saved and you just want to go home from this ****** job.

Imagine how hard it would be to pry the ankle nail out with no leverage?

So just cut-off the ankles, lift the crossbeam off and untie the victim and drag the body away.

Now it’s alot easier to get at the nails, wiggle it free or give it another chop on top cutting the ankle away and pull the nail free.

I’ve read of an instance where family members have bribed these underpaid people for their loved one’s body at an execution event like this before.

There is a pauper’s cemetery 100m away and they have a dead body, it’s getting dark and they are outside the Walls of Rome.

Plus it’s not like these early Christians are walking around with a Christian symbol on their clothes.
They are members of Rome’s Jewish community completely free to walk around the city and Romans see them daily.

It’s unlikely that every single Christian was rounded-up, so what we have is Christian Jews also burned-out of their homes with many living outside the Walls of Rome and Nero has opened-up his Villa Gardens to the refugees right next to this Circus.

So for a few Jews to be with the vast Mob watching this event and hanging around afterwards is nothing out of the ordinary.

It’s easy to imagine for a few coins to the poor burial/clean-up crew on the sly that they would give them a dead body… What do they care?

As far a Peter being crucified upside-down who knows?
It could be true or a later legend, IIRC the 1st record we have of it was over 100+yrs later.
Which doesn’t prove or disprove it.

Yeah… Makes complete sense in your way of thinking about it. Another reasonable theory was that the body of Peter was known by some guard that eventually converted to Christianity by the time he was killed (I’m reminding myself that Christianity was growing at quite a rate, even to Gentiles) and retrieved the body to St. Linus and the rest of the newly-founded Church of Rome to have him buried. On the comment that I’ve seen that Peter was buried pretty close to his place of execution, the same thing happened to Jesus, in order for Him to have a tomb of His own just before dusk and the Sabbath started. I don’t know, they might have either wanted to do the burial quickly before anyone recognized the corpse of a leader of a group of criminals (I’m just a layman speculating ), or it was a Friday as well and they were rushing it by keeping Jewish traditions and not giving themselves away.

And given what you’ve pointed out on saving the nails by cutting the ankles open, that puts the upside-down crucifixion as a maybe-possible legend. Either way, if you know Peter as he was described in the New Testament, he’d have some crazy idea of that sort to differentiate himself as a servant of the Lord, and not worthy of dying the exact same way as He did. But hey, if I can come up with this possibility, 2nd century Christians would be more prone to do the same as well anyways. Not that they’d make up something like that, but out of respect they’d speculate it.

For something like that I must go with the experts in that field with all those letters after their names, I look at the Pro and Con opinions.
If the majority is Pro I must except it as true or go out and get a PhD in that field?

An example I’ve often used is; Scientists tell us that light travels a 186,282 miles per second, how could I ever disprove that so I must accept it as fact.

Yeah, makes sense. I’m getting that this passage of Jesus may not even be a pinnacle of your own personal interest either, but a small point that further proves that Jesus might have historically existed (after all, that’s the belief of most ancient historians as far as I’ve heard; not many mythicists in that area… ) and gives some ground on your personal assertion about this.

It’s already great the amount of information you’ve given us about this. This might’ve even been something I’d personally look up into doing if I hadn’t to choose between specalizing in science or humanities. Thanks for the time of writing this up, I’ve loved it, and I think I’ll add you on my contacts if I have anything to ask you in the Roman history side of things.