St. Robert Bellarmine and the Pope-Heretic Question

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I seems SFD agrees with you. Don’t worry. You are in great company, namely me. I, too, have been called stupid by sedevacantists here. For those that know me, it gives me one more thing to point at to show how wrong their opinions can be. Not that I know of any Catholics that give them any serious credence.
They called you stupid? How rude! I wonder why? Btw, how do relate them calling you stupid to their opinions being wrong? Where is the correlation?

I think you should get “out and about” a bit more dear chap, I know tons upon tons of Catholics who give Catholics who hold a sede vacante position, extremely serious credence. 🙂
 
They called you stupid? How rude! I wonder why? Btw, how do relate them calling you stupid to their opinions being wrong? Where is the correlation?

I think you should get “out and about” a bit more dear chap, I know tons upon tons of Catholics who give Catholics who hold a sede vacante position, extremely serious credence.
It was you who called the gentleman stupid.

But, that won’t happen any more.

The ‘tons of people’ you refer to are SV’s, extreme right wing ‘members’ of the Catholic Church.

SV attacks on the Papacy are against Canon Law, and tons of people will jump in here to protect the names of good and valid popes, from Pio Nono on down to the current day.

peace
 
SFD; [/QUOTE said:
Where does it say in Canon Law what the requirements are for someone to be elected Pope?

Quoting St. Robert Bellarmine is irrelevant. He lived at a time when we had a different Code.

And you keep referring to the 1917 Code, which has been abrogated.

Let’s get this discussion into the post Vatican II period.

We operate under the 1983 Code. It is available on line at the Vatican site.

peace
 
That’s because I don’t take you seriously. My time here is actually limited by other more pressing duties.

Maybe we can make a deal. If I would agree to point them out…would you agree to go away? 🙂

SFD
SFD,

"Maybe we can make a deal. If I would agree to point them out…would you agree to go away? 🙂 "

This sounds like a sterling idea!
 
It was you who called the gentleman stupid.

But, that won’t happen any more.

The ‘tons of people’ you refer to are SV’s, extreme right wing ‘members’ of the Catholic Church.

SV attacks on the Papacy are against Canon Law, and tons of people will jump in here to protect the names of good and valid popes, from Pio Nono on down to the current day.

peace
No. I don’t believe that I did ever call him stupid. Could you please cite the thread and post # where I (purportedly) did this?

I fully understand why you’d perceive them to be “extreme right wing ‘members’ of the Catholic Church.”, but then again we don’t live under your definitions. However, I’m glad that you acknowledge that there are “tons upons tons” of Catholics who hold the sede vacante position. 🙂 No, holding the SV position is entirely legitimate. I thought SFD explained this to you?

Pax
 
Four_Marks; [/QUOTE said:
SDV’s explanation was not valid and not accepted.

The position of daring to say that the election of various Roman Pontiffs was invalid is utter nonsense.

I don’t have to prove it. Saying so is contrary to current Church law. No respectable theologian is going to risk his teaching credentials by repeating such complete and utter nonsense.

peace
 
This is incorrect. You are confusing Book 4 of De Romano Pontifice with Chapter 4 of the Council. That is certain. Bp. Gasser is contrasting them in his relatio.
Bp. Gasser is refuting the objection “w**e wish to make the extreme opinion of a certain school of theology a dogma of Catholic faith.” He does this by asserting that Pighius’ opinion is not “extreme”, as his detractors assert, but shared by such a great authority as Bellarmine, and called certain.

He begins by referring to Bellarmine because the French clergy (incorrectly) cite Bellarmine as the authority for their dissenting views regarding the draft to Pastor Aeternus. He quickly dismisses the “things that are said about the opinion of Bellarmine,” by the French clergy as untenable.

Bp. Gasser then states, “As far as the doctrine set forth in the Draft goes, the Deputation is unjustly accused…” But why are they unjustly accused? At this point you expect him to cite the Draft of Pastor Aeternus to defend his case, but he doesn’t. What does he do instead? Instead of referring back to the words written in the Draft, he refers to the opinion of Pighius being affirmed by Bellarmine, showing that it was not an “extreme” opinion as the French clergy asserted.

Gasser explained, “*…the Deputation is unjustly accused…*For the opinion of Albert Pighius, which Bellarmine indeed calls pious and probable, was that the pope, as an individual person or a private teacher, was able to err from a type of ignorance but was never able to fall into heresy or teach heresy…this is clear from the very words of Bellarmine.” So the ONLY reason cited by Gasser for being unjustly accused was not something from the Draft, but that it was not an “extreme” opinon but what Bellarmine himself defended.

He has not mentioned anything about the teaching presented in the Draft of Pastor Aeternus in his defense. At this point he has ONLY refuted the notion that the opinion was “extreme.”

After citing the opinion of Bellarmine, Gasser drew his conclusion directly from Bellarmine’s teaching in bk. 4, ch. 6. This is clear from the beginning of his next sentence: “**From this, it appears…”

**Notice that he is now drawing his conclusion, not based upon citations from the Draft, but ONLY based upon Bellarmine’s teaching, thereby showing that it was not simply an “extreme” opinion, not JUST Pighius’, not JUST one theological school, but also the conclusion proved by Bellarmine himself in bk. 4, ch. 6.

Bp. Gasser’s conclusion in full is:
**From this *, it appears that the doctrine in the proposed chapter [of the Draft] is not that of Albert Pighius [ie. not singularly his] or the extreme opinion of any school, but rather that it * ** is one and the same which Bellarmine teaches in the place cited by the reverend speaker and which Bellarmine adduces in the fourth place and calls most certain and assured, or rather, correcting himself, **the most common and certain opinion.
**Is it your thesis that what Gasser means by stating "Bellermine adduces in the fourth place" is not referring to a text written by Bellarmine, but instead is the Draft of Pastor Aeternus?
To me it seems clear that whatever the “fourth place” means, it MUST be something that Bellarmine authored himself and where he “adduces” (ie. proves), and in that “fourth place,” as Gasser confirms, Bellaermine “correct himself.” It this fourth place is indeed referring to the fourth session of Vatican I, please explain how it is Bellarmine who “adduces” and how in the “fourth place” he “corrects himself.”’
Since Gasser prefaces the entire sentence with “From this…” I can only conclude that he is speaking about what immediately preceded it. If so, then what Bellarmine “adduces” (proves) in the “fourth place” must either be referring to a text of Bellarmines’ own making, either the one “cited by the reverend speaking” or the one cited by Gasser, De pontifice Romano, bk 4. ch. 6, as these were the only things spoken of immediately preceding Gasser’s preface, “From this…”
As I understand it, the bk 4 ch 6 of De pontifice romano is the place where Bellarmine “adduces” (proves) the opinion just referred to by Gasser, as is seen from the chapter title: “De pontifice ut* est particu*laris quaedam persona.”
 
No. I don’t believe that I did ever call him stupid. Could you please cite the thread and post # where I (purportedly) did this?

Pax
Yes, in the thread “Sedevacantism and Pius XI”, Post #171:

against pnewton, you said:
Quote:
GOOD GRIEF! Dealing with you is a complete and utter waste of time! Did you read my post on the “substance of a sacrament”? Did you understand it? Can’t you grasp that the “substance of a sacrament” is NOT the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Talk about the Novus Ordites and IGNORANCE of Catholicism

Quote
 
itsjustdaveQUOTE:
Thank you, Dave.

Maybe we could put to bed this whole nonsense about what the SV people, et al, for quoting St. Robert Bellarmine, and keeping this nonsensical theory going about the possibility of having an heretical pope.

These constant attacks on the Papacy are becoming too much.

peace
 
…I know tons upon tons of Catholics who give Catholics who hold a sede vacante position, extremely serious credence.
As a military guy, I’ve been around comparatively speaking. Yet, I have never met a sedevacantist apart from cyberspace. They simply don’t have much influence in my experience. In my current diocese (Colorado Springs), I know of only one small group (a monastery) who reside in the farm country east of Colorado Springs. Very small facility which not many people actually know about. Perhaps my diocese is exceptional. In Spokane (which I found to be a rather un-exceptional diocese), their facility (and I presume the number of adherents) is greater. But even then, not a large number of adherents, comparatively speaking.
 
SDV’s explanation was not valid and not accepted.

The position of daring to say that the election of various Roman Pontiffs was invalid is utter nonsense.

I don’t have to prove it. Saying so is contrary to current Church law. No respectable theologian is going to risk his teaching credentials by repeating such complete and utter nonsense.

peace
Ok. I see, no problem. Whereas that explanation may satisfy you personally, it is not going to render SFD’s (and the replies of others) replies invalid, nor will it cause readers to fail to see their erudition in these matters.

Similarly,
Pax
 
Ok. I see, no problem. Whereas that explanation may satisfy you personally, it is not going to render SFD’s (and the replies of others) replies invalid, nor will it cause readers to fail to see their erudition in these matters.

Similarly,
Pax
State your beliefs, and the Forum Administrator may deem them too contemptible of the Catholic Church, or the Roman Pontiff, and then let’s see what happens.

peace
 
Yes, in the thread “Sedevacantism and Pius XI”, Post #171:

against pnewton, you said:
Quote:
GOOD GRIEF! Dealing with you is a complete and utter waste of time! Did you read my post on the “substance of a sacrament”? Did you understand it? Can’t you grasp that the “substance of a sacrament” is NOT the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Talk about the Novus Ordites and IGNORANCE of Catholicism

Quote
Oh dear sir! I wish you had not posted that! It brings back bitter memories of deep frustration. However, note that I didn’t say he was stupid, but rather just ignorant. I’m sorry if he (and others) took an inference that he is stupid. Now, to put the comment in context. Dear pnewton and yourself had been viciously attacking fellow-Catholics on that thread, and my comment was born of frustration of the unjustified attacks as well as the obvious ignorance.

I presume you recall how another poster referred to you as “the rudest poster on this forum”?

My attitude towards the other adherents of BXVI is one of good will and understanding, as Catharina will attest (she seems lovely and devout). Please accept my apology for my above remark. It wont happen again — I now know how to deal with both yourself and dear pnewton.

Pax
 
itsjustdaveQUOTE:
Thank you, Dave.

Maybe we could put to bed this whole nonsense about what the SV people, et al, for quoting St. Robert Bellarmine, and keeping this nonsensical theory going about the possibility of having an heretical pope.

These constant attacks on the Papacy are becoming too much.

peace
Do you think you should retire for your health?

Pax
 
As a military guy, I’ve been around comparatively speaking. Yet, I have never met a sedevacantist apart from cyberspace. They simply don’t have much influence in my experience. In my current diocese (Colorado Springs), I know of only one small group (a monastery) who reside in the farm country east of Colorado Springs. Very small facility which not many people actually know about. Perhaps my diocese is exceptional. In Spokane (which I found to be a rather un-exceptional diocese), their facility (and I presume the number of adherents) is greater. But even then, not a large number of adherents, comparatively speaking.
Dear itsjustdave,

Yes, no doubt the numbers are relatively small. But it is a growing minority, if you will.

Regards,
Four_Marks
 
mgrfin;3210571:
Do you think you should retire for your health?

Pax
If you are referring to me, my health is just fine, thank God.

And you and all these right wingers, right of right, give me a whole new purpose for existing.

What you would like is not opposition, to present your false theses, unopposed.

Sorry, you are going to have to find a different web site for that. Maybe the protestants will accept you.

You give me more people to pray for and to love, thank God.
peace
 
Four_Marks;3210906:
If you are referring to me, my health is just fine, thank God.

And you and all these right wingers, right of right, give me a whole new purpose for existing.

What you would like is not opposition, to present your false theses, unopposed.

Sorry, you are going to have to find a different web site for that. Maybe the protestants will accept you.

You give me more people to pray for and to love, thank God.
peace
Dear sir,

I think that you subscribe to a different definition of “opposition” than I do. C’est la vie! Of course, your comments are always helpul!

I’m glad that you enjoy good health. Deo gratias!

See, we’re pals — I’ve got you praying for me.

Thank you so much!

Pax
 
how many threads are you running anyway?

Too much for one person.

And you don’t have anything more to say.

peace
I’m posting in two threads, and I have plenty yet to share!

Pax times a million! 🙂
 
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