St. Teresa of Avila-"God dwells in our souls" THE PRAYER OF RECOLLECTION

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I hadn’t followed the ‘centering prayer’ thread, but I do practice ‘meditative’ type prayer in seeking God’s presense, so I’m interested in the subject. I’m currently reading St Teresa of Avila’s book The Way of Perfection and just finished her chapter of ‘The prayer of recollection’ Here is an interesting paragragh that I just read yesterday:

Chapter XXIX
4) This is not what is called silence of the powers; it is a recollection of the powers within the soul itself. There are several ways of acquiring the haBit. Many books advise us to cast aside all other thoughts in order to approach God Who dwells in our souls; and they tell us that even in the midst of our occupations we should occasionally withdraw into ourselves, if only for a moment. It is always very profitable to remember Who resides within our hearts. All I desire is that we should realize to Whom our prayers are addressed, and should remain in His presence and not turn our back on Him, as we appear to do if, while we are speaking to God, we occupy our thoughts with a thousand vanities. All this evil comes from our not really understanding that God is near us, but imagining that He is far away—and how very far away, if we must go to heaven to find Him! And dost Thou art so near us? Unless the person we are speaking to looks at us, we think he is not listening; shall we then close our eyes so that we cannot see whether Thou dost attnd to us or not? How could we tell whether our words were heard?

She goes on to tell her nuns to learn to quiet their minds to hear God who is so near. I just love this book! 🙂 She advises in the book to acquire this habit of approaching God, who resides in our souls.
 
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WhiteDove:
I hadn’t followed the ‘centering prayer’ thread, but I do practice ‘meditative’ type prayer in seeking God’s presense, so I’m interested in the subject. I’m currently reading St Teresa of Avila’s book The Way of Perfection and just finished her chapter of ‘The prayer of recollection’ Here is an interesting paragragh that I just read yesterday:

Chapter XXIX
4) This is not what is called silence of the powers; it is a recollection of the powers within the soul itself. There are several ways of acquiring the haBit. Many books advise us to cast aside all other thoughts in order to approach God Who dwells in our souls; and they tell us that even in the midst of our occupations we should occasionally withdraw into ourselves, if only for a moment. It is always very profitable to remember Who resides within our hearts. All I desire is that we should realize to Whom our prayers are addressed, and should remain in His presence and not turn our back on Him, as we appear to do if, while we are speaking to God, we occupy our thoughts with a thousand vanities. All this evil comes from our not really understanding that God is near us, but imagining that He is far away—and how very far away, if we must go to heaven to find Him! And dost Thou art so near us? Unless the person we are speaking to looks at us, we think he is not listening; shall we then close our eyes so that we cannot see whether Thou dost attnd to us or not? How could we tell whether our words were heard?

She goes on to tell her nuns to learn to quiet their minds to hear God who is so near. I just love this book! 🙂 She advises in the book to acquire this habit of approaching God, who resides in our souls.
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Very nice,
Yes. Heaven is within us. I’ve read all her works. A truly great saint and mystic.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
Dear friend

Yes this is true, if we are not ‘still and know that I am God’ then we cannot have this kind of communion with Him, it is one of the many facets of God, also within the same charism, St Therese of Liseux, talks of communion with God in all the small things in life involved in worldly things being prayer.

It must always be remembered that contemplative prayer is a gift, a special gift and NOT every soul is granted this gift, it cannot be aspired to or learnt, it is a gift. All is gift in God, the willingness to be wrong and renounce pride, the willingness to be told we are wrong, the willingness to know when we are wrong and humbly apologise is gift, nothing we are granted is by our own volition. As such all prayer is, we can neither strive to achieve it, but accept it as pure gift.

St Teresa of Avila was given the gift of contemplation which is very different to meditation, it is a most beautiful prayer to God, one He alone leads the soul in. I am very cautious of the person who says they have this gift, it is a very high gift indeed, one most Saints were never blessed with, indeed it is for those God chooses and as such any claim by any person to have it must be rigorously tested. TRhis is very different from slowing down, putting thoughts aside and sitting in the quiet of God, this is very different from Contemplative prayer, this is purely a skill in listening to God, being quiet enough to hear Him speak to you, this is NOT the same a contemplative prayer.

In Meditative prayer we do not cast aside thoughts, we think of our lives and Christ’s, draw paralells and dwell upon the thoughts of how to be more Christ-like, what the Sacred Scriptures reveal as interpreted by the Majesterium under the power of the Holy Spirit and come to a deeper and ever deepening understanding of this, in constant return to our very beginnings in faith, the basics of faith discovered and re-discovered in our life by constant meditation on them. We must constantly re-examine the fundamentals of our faith, the basics, what we think we know we must keep returning to for constant deepening in them by the power of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the beginning by God and by the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ. The transference then of what is in the mind and knowledge understood, then transfers deeper into the heart by constant returning and meditation on these basics of faith. At this point then the indwelling of the Truine God blossoms in the heart and spirit. There is Scriptural reference for all I have said here, I defy any Scriptural theologian to state otherwise. If you think you know, go back again and relearn what you know, in this is a constant revelation of Sacred Scripture and Jesus Christ.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Teresa9:
Dear friend

Yes this is true, if we are not ‘still and know that I am God’ then we cannot have this kind of communion with Him, it is one of the many facets of God, also within the same charism, St Therese of Liseux, talks of communion with God in all the small things in life involved in worldly things being prayer.

It must always be remembered that contemplative prayer is a gift, a special gift and NOT every soul is granted this gift, it cannot be aspired to or learnt, it is a gift. All is gift in God, the willingness to be wrong and renounce pride, the willingness to be told we are wrong, the willingness to know when we are wrong and humbly apologise is gift, nothing we are granted is by our own volition. As such all prayer is, we can neither strive to achieve it, but accept it as pure gift.

St Teresa of Avila was given the gift of contemplation which is very different to meditation, it is a most beautiful prayer to God, one He alone leads the soul in. I am very cautious of the person who says they have this gift, it is a very high gift indeed, one most Saints were never blessed with, indeed it is for those God chooses and as such any claim by any person to have it must be rigorously tested. TRhis is very different from slowing down, putting thoughts aside and sitting in the quiet of God, this is very different from Contemplative prayer, this is purely a skill in listening to God, being quiet enough to hear Him speak to you, this is NOT the same a contemplative prayer.

In Meditative prayer we do not cast aside thoughts, we think of our lives and Christ’s, draw paralells and dwell upon the thoughts of how to be more Christ-like, what the Scared Scriptures reveal as interpreted by the Majesterium under the power of the Holy Spirit and come to a deeper and ever deepening understanding of this, in constant return to our very beginnings in faith, the basics of faith discovered and re-discovered in our life by constant meditation on them. We must constantly re-examine the fundamentals of our faith, the basics, what we think we know we must keep returning to for constant deepening in them by the power of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the beginning by God and by the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ. The transference then of what is in the mind and knowledge understood, then transfers deeper into the heart by constant returning and meditation on these basics of faith. At this point then the indwelling of the Truine God blossoms in the heart and spirit. There is Scriptural reference for all I have said here, I defy any Scriptural theologian to state otherwise. If you think you know, go back again and relearn what you know, in this is a constant revelation of Sacred Scripture and Jesus Christ.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
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Hi Teresa,
Well put.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif Not all souls are led by this path. St John of the Cross said , in his book, Dark night of the Soul, that many only progress so far on this path e.g. many souls will go through the night of sense. And few of them will go on to experience the dark night of the soul. If anyone does go through the latter night, then we can all praise God. Because, such a soul will do great things for the Church.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
John Russell Jr:
Hi Teresa,
Well put.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif Not all souls are led by this path. St John of the Cross said , in his book, Dark night of the Soul, that many only progress so far on this path e.g. many souls will go through the night of sense. And few of them will go on to experience the dark night of the soul. If anyone does go through the latter night, then we can all praise God. Because, such a soul will do great things for the Church.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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What is the dark night of the soul? I know that Padre Pio was tormented with evil spirits at night. Is that what you’re referring to?
Blessings,
Shannin
 
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shannin:
What is the dark night of the soul? I know that Padre Pio was tormented with evil spirits at night. Is that what you’re referring to?
Blessings,
Shannin
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No. It is also known as the night of the spirit. It is a purification of the spirit, that few experience. It consists of severe trials, and usually for several years, in which a soul is purified. It can include diabolical attacks. At the end you see a Saint. For a full explaination you can read - Dark night of the soul, by St John of the Cross.
 
Dear Teresa,

I am typing this away from my computer, and cannot use the copy/paste function. So I reference your second paragraph and bring the reader’s attention to the gift of contemplation that you described.

True, this is a gift of God, but there are varying degrees to which the soul can be gifted with this, which is according to their progress in prayer. I would say that many saints and even many christians do experience the initial infusions of this gift from God.

I am supposing that you are referring to the higher degrees, which I agree would not be experienced by very many. David wrote in the Psalms, “Taste, and see the goodness of the Lord.” I believe it is possible for most devout persons to experience this, and it would be called contemplative prayer, albeit in the lower levels.

There is also a form of contempation that some writers call “acquired” contemplation. This would be different from the infused prayer of contemplation that God grants as a gift of His presence. Brother Lawrence wrote about this acquired contemplation in his book, *Practice of the Presence of God. *It is also referred to by some authors as the prayer of simplicity, because the soul uses very few words, if any, and simply gazes upon the Lord present within.

Probably, it would help to differentiate these prayer forms so that our readers will not be confused as they come across the terms and misunderstand what we are saying.

Warm regards,
Carole
 
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Joysong:
Dear Teresa,

I am typing this away from my computer, and cannot use the copy/paste function. So I reference your second paragraph and bring the reader’s attention to the gift of contemplation that you described.

True, this is a gift of God, but there are varying degrees to which the soul can be gifted with this, which is according to their progress in prayer. I would say that many saints and even many christians do experience the initial infusions of this gift from God.

I am supposing that you are referring to the higher degrees, which I agree would not be experienced by very many. David wrote in the Psalms, “Taste, and see the goodness of the Lord.” I believe it is possible for most devout persons to experience this, and it would be called contemplative prayer, albeit in the lower levels.

There is also a form of contempation that some writers call “acquired” contemplation. This would be different from the infused prayer of contemplation that God grants as a gift of His presence. Brother Lawrence wrote about this acquired contemplation in his book, *Practice of the Presence of God. *It is also referred to by some authors as the prayer of simplicity, because the soul uses very few words, if any, and simply gazes upon the Lord present within.

Probably, it would help to differentiate these prayer forms so that our readers will not be confused as they come across the terms and misunderstand what we are saying.

Warm regards,
Carole
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Dear Carole

Thank you for your message and your thoughtful response. What you refer to is meditation which is not the same as ‘contemplation’ contemplation is a special gift . This has been greatly stressed by my Spiritual Director who is a Carmelite nun active order, when I discussed this very topic you are speaking of, with her.

I would say that many saints and even many christians do experience the initial infusions of this gift from God. (sorry I don’t know how to pull out pieces of quotes, if anyone can teach me I’d love to learn)

What you refer to here is a revelation within the heart that leads all souls of faith to ‘realise’ that there is God and that Christ Jesus is His Son and is also God, this is gift as we know, faith is gift, But this doesn’t pertain to contemplation as faith can be arrived at by watching another human being of faith or reading scripture, by a tragedy in life, by a lack of ‘finding’ happiness outside of the self in materialism etc etc …well that list is endless how God brings us to realisation of Him, but it is not the same as a union with Him in contemplative prayer, where God allows Himself to be revealed to the soul in this manner which He gifts Himself to them.

Then it is true a person ‘tastes’ God by spiritual formation in the faith, by the teachings of those around them and the Majesterium of the church, we constantly have revelations in faith that are illuminating and assist the transference of understanding to the heart so that we are able to deeper love our Triune God and come closer to being Christ-like, this again is not the same as contemplative prayer. Indeed when in prayer if these revelations happen to a soul in prayer, it is almost certainly always during reflection on some point, life, an event, Sacred Scripture, Christ Mary etc etc etc. and not in contemplation.

I am NOT saying that no other soul than St Teresa has /had this gift, God grants it to whom He chooses, but to say there are many who have this gift is a fallocy. It is an extremely rare and special gift.

I think we will have to agree to differ as no disrespect to yourself, but I will let my spiritual development and understanding of this and other Carmelite issues and charisms be led by my Spiritual Director and my Priest.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Carole

**There is also a form of contempation that some writers call “acquired” contemplation. This would be different from the infused prayer of contemplation that God grants as a gift of His presence. Brother Lawrence wrote about this acquired contemplation in his book, Practice of the Presence of God. It is also referred to by some authors as the prayer of simplicity, because the soul uses very few words, if any, and simply gazes upon the Lord present within.

P.s.

no-one can aquire contemplation, it is a gift that is not acquired, to me this is a strange term indeed. When a soul does this they are practicing a gift which not many are able to do either, as the mind wanders and some can be left feeling most un-productive in prayer, however some souls are blessed by God with the ability through frequent piousness to be able to sit totally quiet within themselves and listen to God, essentially prayer is a conversation and we speak, we should also allow God to speak and be quiet and listen, it’s a conversation not a running monologue from ourselves to God. This again is not contemplation.

In regard of the writings you have mentioned, to my mind just because someone writes something does not mean it is true, 😃 that could be said of what I have written here and also of what you have written. It would be a great mistake for souls to be believing themselves to be in a prayer of contemplation when they are not. However if a soul derives much progress and spiritual growth in prayer, then that prayer is good.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Hello Pilgrims,

Here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on “Contemplation”. Among other matters, it defines and describes many of the terms used in this thread.

newadvent.org/cathen/04324b.htm

I wish you all peace and God’s blessings!!
 
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Joysong:
Brother Lawrence wrote about this acquired contemplation in his book, *Practice of the Presence of God. *It is also referred to by some authors as the prayer of simplicity, because the soul uses very few words, if any, and simply gazes upon the Lord present within.
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This is an interesting comment . . . a different slant on Brother Lawrence than how I’ve come to view him.

When St. Teresa of Avila speaks of a soul in the 7th Mansion . . . Brother Lawrence is who I think of. I see his contemplation as very much infused, although not of the “ecstatic” type St. Teresa often speaks.
 
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Teresa9:
Dear Carole

There is also a form of contempation that some writers call “acquired” contemplation. This would be different from the infused prayer of contemplation that God grants as a gift of His presence. Brother Lawrence wrote about this acquired contemplation in his book, *Practice of the Presence of God. *It is also referred to by some authors as the prayer of simplicity, because the soul uses very few words, if any, and simply gazes upon the Lord present within.

P.s.

no-one can aquire contemplation, it is a gift that is not acquired, to me this is a strange term indeed. When a soul does this they are practicing a gift which not many are able to do either, as the mind wanders and some can be left feeling most un-productive in prayer, however some souls are blessed by God with the ability through frequent piousness to be able to sit totally quiet within themselves and listen to God, essentially prayer is a conversation and we speak, we should also allow God to speak and be quiet and listen, it’s a conversation not a running monologue from ourselves to God. This again is not contemplation.

In regard of the writings you have mentioned, to my mind just because someone writes something does not mean it is true, 😃 that could be said of what I have written here and also of what you have written. It would be a great mistake for souls to be believing themselves to be in a prayer of contemplation when they are not. However if a soul derives much progress and spiritual growth in prayer, then that prayer is good.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
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Hi Teresa,
To pull out pcs of threads from here or any web page. I left click on the top/ left ( depending if it is one line or more ) and keep my finger on the mouse button. And drag the cursor left and then down. This hilites the text etc to be copied. I let go of the mouse and hold down the control key and press c. Then in the reply/post place the cursor where you want the text started from. And hold down the control key and press v. This should work on your computer too I imagine. You can do the same with web addresses. Just hilite the address line and ctrl c , ctrl v.
Hope this helps.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
John Russell Jr:
Hi Teresa,
To pull out pcs of threads from here or any web page. I left click on the top/ left ( depending if it is one line or more ) and keep my finger on the mouse button. And drag the cursor left and then down. This hilites the text etc to be copied. I let go of the mouse and hold down the control key and press c. Then in the reply/post place the cursor where you want the text started from. And hold down the control key and press v. This should work on your computer too I imagine. You can do the same with web addresses. Just hilite the address line and ctrl c , ctrl v.
Hope this helps.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
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Dear John

Thank you for your kindness and taking the time to explain this to me, I think I have it and will do a bit of pracitising 😃

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
carmelite.com/im/head/main.gif carmelite.com/im/head/saints.gif [Return to Other Carmelite home]
http://www.carmelite.com/saints/other/p_Lectio.jpgLectio Divina and the Practice of Teresian Prayer

Sam Anthony Morello, OCD

(This article originally appeared in the Summer 1991 issue of Spiritual Life magazine.)

© Washington Province of Discalced Carmelites, 1991-2000 ICS Publications.
Permission is hereby granted for any non-commercial use, if this copyright notice is included. Introduction
Teresian Notions
Teresian Characteristics and Attitudes
Teresian Methods
Lectio Divina, Framework of Teresian Prayer
Injecting the Teresian Spirit into Lectio Divina
Conclusion
Questions for Study and Discussion
  • [Footnotes](http://www.carmelite.com/saints/other/more_9.htm) © Copyright 1991-2000 [ICS Publications](http://www.icspublications.org/). Permission is hereby granted for any non-commercial use, if this copyright notice is included.
    God Bless you and much love and peace to you

    Teresa
 
Dear Teresa,
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Teresa9:
No-one can aquire contemplation, it is a gift that is not acquired, to me this is a strange term indeed.

In regard of the writings you have mentioned, to my mind just because someone writes something does not mean it is true, 😃 that could be said of what I have written here and also of what you have written.
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I am sorry that I do not have the time or the resources with me to help out here, since I am away from home using a public library computer to respond, and it is difficult to keep on top of the thread daily. Be assured, my friend in Carmel, that I too was professed as a secular Carmelite in 1981. For the better part of 20 years, I have studied the works of our saints in Carmel, and have also practiced prayer, which is the main charism of the order, so I do understand fully what I write.

Perhaps this is not a good time to enter a discussion with you, since all of my material is in my home state and I cannot quote with references - only by experience. As I evaluate what you wrote, I can only conclude that you are fairly new to the order, or the nun has not understood the depth of Carmelite teachings in order to pass them to you correctly. Another possibility is that we are having a problem understanding one another’s phrasing and language, although we may both be expressing the truth. 🙂

Hopefully after the holidays, I will be able to spend more time and properly respond to this thread.

Carole
 
Teresa of Avila is one of my favorites…
I have read the Interior Castle and have a series of five talks on cassette by Ralph Martin called Union With God–Learning from Tersa of Avila which helped me better understand The Call to Holiness, the Mansions, Teresa’s Advice on Prayer and Obstacles to Union w/ God…these are the topics he covers. Annunciata:)
 
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Joysong:
Dear Teresa,

I am sorry that I do not have the time or the resources with me to help out here, since I am away from home using a public library computer to respond, and it is difficult to keep on top of the thread daily. Be assured, my friend in Carmel, that I too was professed as a secular Carmelite in 1981. For the better part of 20 years, I have studied the works of our saints in Carmel, and have also practiced prayer, which is the main charism of the order, so I do understand fully what I write.

Perhaps this is not a good time to enter a discussion with you, since all of my material is in my home state and I cannot quote with references - only by experience. As I evaluate what you wrote, I can only conclude that you are fairly new to the order, or the nun has not understood the depth of Carmelite teachings in order to pass them to you correctly. Another possibility is that we are having a problem understanding one another’s phrasing and language, although we may both be expressing the truth. 🙂

Hopefully after the holidays, I will be able to spend more time and properly respond to this thread.

Carole
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Dearest Carole

Thank you for your post and I can appreciate you cannot fully discuss this without points of reference. Yes I am new to the order, but my Spiritual Director is not and I trust her explanations fully without question. ( I am respectful of my need to be obedient to her)

I think after taking advice on your post from another member of the forums and after re-reading it several times, what maybe is not clear in your post is this: We should be open to contemplative prayer and pray in the spirit of this, but that contemplative prayer is a gift from God that cannot be achieved by human striving nor desire. We may pre-dispose ourselves to the possibility of this gift by certain pious practice in prayer which St Teresa descibes in the Interior castle, but that contemplative prayer is not achieveable by ourselves.

Like you say, probably different use of language caused a misunderstanding.

As a newbie to the Order, but not it’s charisms I would very much like to be able to discuss things with you if you have the time in future after the holidays and it would also be a wonderful thing to be able to share fellowship with other Third Order Carmelites.

Once again Carole, thankyou , Happy Thanksgiving

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Teresa9:
. . . it would also be a wonderful thing to be able to share fellowship with other Third Order Carmelites.
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Sounds like a great idea for a new thread 👍

I think there’s quite a few Secular Carmelites around here and many, many more who seem to have a great interest in the Carmelite saints. Carmelite spirituality seems to crop up on all sorts of threads!

Thanks WhiteDove for starting this one!
 
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DBT:
Sounds like a great idea for a new thread 👍

I think there’s quite a few Secular Carmelites around here and many, many more who seem to have a great interest in the Carmelite saints. Carmelite spirituality seems to crop up on all sorts of threads!

Thanks WhiteDove for starting this one!
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Dear DBT

Great idea!!! Excellent, please start the thread DBT!!😃

I’d also echo your thanks to WhiteDove she’s one of my favourite thread masters! Thanks WhiteDove and God Bless you

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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