St. Therese: did she say Hell is empty?

[stceolfrithtx]

St. Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church: did she say Hell is empty? If she did, why was she made a Doctor? I read this in a combox of a “catholic” website of ill-repute.

 

[Stylites]

St. Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church: did she say Hell is empty? If she did, why was she made a Doctor? I read this in a combox of a “catholic” website of ill-repute.

Not sure if your question is whether the Church erred in declaring a Saint to be a Doctor of the Church, or whether an ill-reputed “catholic” website has any validity.

.

 

[Monica4316]

it was probably something taken way out of context. To my knowledge St Therese never said anything like this.

 

[thistle]

St. Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church: did she say Hell is empty? If she did, why was she made a Doctor? I read this in a combox of a “catholic” website of ill-repute.

I doubt she said that because we know Hell is not empty. Although we do not know who goes to Hell, we do know that at the very least Satan and the other fallen angels are there.
Also Jesus himself said many will find their way there.

 

[MichaelK1313]

If she did, then i believe that she may have meant it more like an empty after-life, in the end we will gain nothing from Hell except for emptiness. Something along the lines of that.

 

[ready]

St. Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church: did she say Hell is empty? If she did, why was she made a Doctor? I read this in a combox of a “catholic” website of ill-repute.

St. Therese has NEVER said that “Hell is empty.” Such a statement is a heresy! People will try to make arguments that Hell is empty, but do not listen to them. They could NEVER even prove such a thing!

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have never read where she ever said that.

I know what she DID say is that everybody in hell is a knowing volunteer, and not just a volunteer in the sense of having committed a mortal sin. She believed that at some point in the “death process”, perhaps even right after it, Jesus shows us the true nature of every sin we ever committed, and it’s really horrible. He then offers His love and forgiveness, but to accept it we have to admit how deserving we are of punishment and how dependent on Him we are for salvation.

We then either swallow our pride, accept His love, and either enter heaven directly or take the alternative of purgatory, not feeling ourselves quite worthy to be in God’s presence.
Or, and knowing full well the consequences and being entirely able to choose, and being totally clear-minded, we wrap ourselves in ourselves and reject His forgiveness and Him. We choose to worship ourselves for all eternity and hate God, just as Satan did, and just as knowingly.

Now, given that, it’s hard to picture anybody volunteering for hell. But then, it’s sort of imaginable. Satan did it, after all.

So, in presenting that concept, did Ste Therese deserve to be called a Doctor of the Church? Well, it seems so to me, inasmuch as it clarifies much of what the Catholic Church teaches about God’s love for us and our freedom. Lots of people don’t seem to think we have that radical kind of freedom. Lots think going to hell can be virtually accidental, like stepping on a bear trap under the snow. Ste Therese didn’t think so.

She said another radical thing. She said even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, she wouldn’t fear hell. Why? Because she loved God and knew she did. Of course, she made a lifetime out of loving Him in her “little” but rather demanding way. She offered everything to Him, and usually through others. She saw the Face of Jesus in everybody in a way most of us only aspire to do, or sometimes even think about.

I love her parable about the rabbit. I have told this on CAF before, but I’ll do it again.

The king is out hunting. He picks up the trail of the rabbit. The rabbit, seeing he is pursued, runs, dodges, employs every rabbit trick there is, but the king still follows, and is gaining. At last, the rabbit runs up against a cliff. He cannot escape. So what does the rabbit do?

He leaps into the arms of the king. The king has pity, and the rabbit is saved.

That’s how she saw us and God.

 

[Shin]

‘Celine, during the SHORT MOMENTS that remain to us, let us not lose our time . . . let us save souls . . . souls are being lost like flakes of snow, and Jesus weeps, and we. . . we are thinking of our sorrow without consoling our Fiance . . . Oh Celeine, let us live for souls.’

St. Therese of Liseux

 

[Shin]

I have never read where she ever said that.

I know what she DID say is that everybody in hell is a knowing volunteer, and not just a volunteer in the sense of having committed a mortal sin.

I would like to see the source?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would like to see the source?

I believe it’s in her autobiography, though there are other writings about what she said, but I believe that’s the source and I greatly encourage you to read it from cover to cover.

 

[Jerok]

St. Therese has NEVER said that “Hell is empty.” Such a statement is a heresy! People will try to make arguments that Hell is empty, but do not listen to them. They could NEVER even prove such a thing!

I’m sorry, did you just say 'don’t listen to them because they can’t prove it?"

Do you realize this argument is circular, and is the very thing that makes people dislike religious people.

In other words, how do you know they can’t prove it if you don’t listen to them?

And can you prove that hell is NOT empty? Didn’t think so. Don’t be so uncharitable.

 

[Shin]

“That all Christians are to be saved.”

[Condemned in the letter “Cum sicut,” Nov. 14, 1459] [Pope Pius II]

'And Moses said:

"In this you shall know that our Lord hath sent me to do all things that you see, and that I have not forged them of my own mind: If they die the accustomed death of men, and if the plague, wherewith others also are wont to be visited, do visit them, our Lord did not send me: but if our Lord do a new thing, that the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, & all things that pertain to them, and they fall alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed our Lord.

Immediately therefore as he ceased to speak, the earth brake asunder under their feet: and opening her mouth, devoured them with their tabernacles & all their substance. And they went down into hell alive covered with the ground, and perished out of the midst of the multitude.

But all Israel, that stood round about, fled at the cry of them that perished, saying: Lest perhaps the earth swallow us also. But a fire also coming forth from our Lord, slew the two hundred fifty men, that offered the incense.’

Numbers 16:28-35

 

[ready]

I would like to mention that it is the consensus of the Church Fathers that most souls go to Hell. Several other saints have said that most souls to Hell.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would like to mention that it is the consensus of the Church Fathers that most souls go to Hell. Several other saints have said that most souls to Hell.

Maybe most people really are that bad. I guess I would prefer to think better of at least the majority of them than that. But I certainly don’t know, and don’t guess anybody really does.

 

[Shin]

Maybe most people really are that bad. I guess I would prefer to think better of at least the majority of them than that. But I certainly don’t know, and don’t guess anybody really does.

I heard a priest say once it wasn’t about people being bad, but not being sufficiently good.

Which sounds rather like what another priest whose sermons I often listen to often says, that unless you live a supernatural life, you cannot be saved. If you live simply a natural life that’s does not suffice.

‘Since their eternal happiness, consisting in the vision of God, exceeds the common state of nature, and especially in so far as this is deprived of grace through the corruption of original sin, those who are saved are in the minority. In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short.’

St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

 

[simple_soul]

I heard a priest say once it wasn’t about people being bad, but not being sufficiently good.

Which sounds rather like what another priest whose sermons I often listen to often says, that unless you live a supernatural life, you cannot be saved. If you live simply a natural life that’s does not suffice.

‘Since their eternal happiness, consisting in the vision of God, exceeds the common state of nature, and especially in so far as this is deprived of grace through the corruption of original sin, those who are saved are in the minority. **In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, **from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short.’

St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

Hi Shin.
In the part of Aquinas’ quote here that I emphasized is He saying that in God’s mercy He chooses who is saved?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I heard a priest say once it wasn’t about people being bad, but not being sufficiently good.

Yes, but that sounds just a bit to me like “earning heaven”, which we are incapable of doing. But I’m no theologian and have no pretense to being one. It’s just that I have always understood we can’t get it done on our own; that such is our sinfulness and so minimal are even our best acts, that we really are dependent on God’s grace now and his mercy in the end.

Not saying (like some protestants) that God’s mercy covers all, like a blanket. But I think there is an extreme on the other side that must also be avoided.

I think maybe that’s one of the reasons Ste Therese was so immensely popular at the turn of the 20th Century, and is seemingly enjoying a renewed popularity now. In talking about her large ambitions but little acts in the outcome, it’s pretty plain that “why” we do what we do is more important than “what” we do, when it comes to being “sufficiently good”. Compared to some fairly ordinary missionary, “what” Ste Therese did would not have loomed nearly as “sufficient”. Yet she was canonized and declared a Doctor of the Church whereas many and many a heroic missionary was not.

 

[Shin]

I believe it’s in her autobiography, though there are other writings about what she said, but I believe that’s the source and I greatly encourage you to read it from cover to cover.

No, I’m afraid it does not appear to be there. Do you have any other thoughts as to where what you are describing as from her might be?

 

[ready]

It is the consensus among the Church Fathers that MOST souls go to hell … and plenty of other saints have said the same thing. Clearly, it would be wrong to say that Hell is empty in light of this information. I do not have to read a bad book about theology or listen to a bad argument about theology to know it is a bad book or a bad argument. – I just have to know that it contradicts the truth – and what the Church Fathers and saints say is true. The Church Fathers and other saints say that MOST SOULS GO TO HELL and Jesus does not speak in any way that contradicts them. Remember what He said about few people finding and entering the narrow way which leads to eternal life and about the many who enter the broad way that leads to perdition? Remember what Jesus says about the sheep and the goats? We are not all sheep here on this earth!!! Jesus would not have spoken as He did if there were no goats to be put on His left.

I’m sorry, did you just say 'don’t listen to them because they can’t prove it?"

Do you realize this argument is circular, and is the very thing that makes people dislike religious people.

In other words, how do you know they can’t prove it if you don’t listen to them?

And can you prove that hell is NOT empty? Didn’t think so. Don’t be so uncharitable.

 

[ready]

For many quotes from popes and saints on the matter of the fewness of souls who are saved please read:

catholicquotations.blogspot.com/2008/07/greater-part-of-men-choose-to-be-damned.html