St. Therese: did she say Hell is empty?

[Shin]

Hi Shin.
In the part of Aquinas’ quote here that I emphasized is He saying that in God’s mercy He chooses who is saved?

It sounds perhaps like a reference to predestination.

 

[ready]

For more quotes on the fewness of the saved:

saintsquotes.net/selection%20-%20fewness.html

One can go online and find even more quotes.

 

[Jerok]

It is the consensus among the Church Fathers that MOST souls go to hell … and plenty of other saints have said the same thing. Clearly, it would be wrong to say that Hell is empty in light of this information. I do not have to read a bad book about theology or listen to a bad argument about theology to know it is a bad book or a bad argument. – I just have to know that it contradicts the truth – and what the Church Fathers and saints say is true. The Church Fathers and other saints say that MOST SOULS GO TO HELL and Jesus does not speak in any way that contradicts them. Remember what He said about few people finding and entering the narrow way which leads to eternal life and about the many who enter the broad way that leads to perdition? Remember what Jesus says about the sheep and the goats? We are not all sheep here on this earth!!! Jesus would not have spoken as He did if there were no goats to be put on His left.

Imagine if the church lasts for 2 billion years before Christ comes, and only the saints in the first 2000 years of the church believed that most people go to hell.

Augustine believed sex with your wife was a venial sin. I don’t believe that. Just because the saints of the church believed something, does NOT mean I have to believe it too. Even if all of them do. Nope. These saints were people with theological opinions that contradict each other all the time.

Jesus could have been warning us to do good to avoid the pain of purgatory. He has been known to slightly bend the truth (John 7: 8-10) in order to fulfill God’s plan.

 

[dailey]

St. Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church: did she say Hell is empty? If she did, why was she made a Doctor? I read this in a combox of a “catholic” website of ill-repute.

I heard that too. From my understanding, the reason it was said was because all the damned were busying roaming the earth trying to snatch souls. Not because no one actually went to hell. Also, doesn’t revelations say something about the devil not going to “hell” until the end of time?

 

[dailey]

Imagine if the church lasts for 2 billion years before Christ comes, and only the saints in the first 2000 years of the church believed that most people go to hell.

Augustine believed sex with your wife was a venial sin. I don’t believe that. Just because the saints of the church believed something, does NOT mean I have to believe it too. Even if all of them do. Nope. These saints were people with theological opinions that contradict each other all the time.

Jesus could have been warning us to do good to avoid the pain of purgatory. He has been known to slightly bend the truth (John 7: 8-10) in order to fulfill God’s plan.

But don’t forget that saints are a gift from God to us. We would be wise to listen to them. Sooo many people make the mistake of thinking that just because they are a “good” person, they will not go to hell. I don’t believe that. Saints are known to have strict views that most people can’t relate to. But like another poster stated, Jesus said “few” will enter. How can you argue with that? Too many people look the other way because the narrow path is just too difficult and quite frankly, not fun.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

I have never read where she ever said that.

I know what she DID say is that everybody in hell is a knowing volunteer, and not just a volunteer in the sense of having committed a mortal sin. She believed that at some point in the “death process”, perhaps even right after it, Jesus shows us the true nature of every sin we ever committed, and it’s really horrible. He then offers His love and forgiveness, but to accept it we have to admit how deserving we are of punishment and how dependent on Him we are for salvation.

We then either swallow our pride, accept His love, and either enter heaven directly or take the alternative of purgatory, not feeling ourselves quite worthy to be in God’s presence.
Or, and knowing full well the consequences and being entirely able to choose, and being totally clear-minded, we wrap ourselves in ourselves and reject His forgiveness and Him. We choose to worship ourselves for all eternity and hate God, just as Satan did, and just as knowingly.

Now, given that, it’s hard to picture anybody volunteering for hell. But then, it’s sort of imaginable. Satan did it, after all.

So, in presenting that concept, did Ste Therese deserve to be called a Doctor of the Church? Well, it seems so to me, inasmuch as it clarifies much of what the Catholic Church teaches about God’s love for us and our freedom. Lots of people don’t seem to think we have that radical kind of freedom. Lots think going to hell can be virtually accidental, like stepping on a bear trap under the snow. Ste Therese didn’t think so.

She said another radical thing. She said even if she had committed every sin there was to commit, she wouldn’t fear hell. Why? Because she loved God and knew she did. Of course, she made a lifetime out of loving Him in her “little” but rather demanding way. She offered everything to Him, and usually through others. She saw the Face of Jesus in everybody in a way most of us only aspire to do, or sometimes even think about.

I love her parable about the rabbit. I have told this on CAF before, but I’ll do it again.

The king is out hunting. He picks up the trail of the rabbit. The rabbit, seeing he is pursued, runs, dodges, employs every rabbit trick there is, but the king still follows, and is gaining. At last, the rabbit runs up against a cliff. He cannot escape. So what does the rabbit do?

He leaps into the arms of the king. The king has pity, and the rabbit is saved.

That’s how she saw us and God.

If she did say that, that strikes me as contradictory tochurch teaching, i.e. “there is no repentance for man after death”.

And I also sense a tinge of presumption in that, unless of course Im reading something in a wrong way.

 

[BluesPicker]

St. Therese has NEVER said that “Hell is empty.” Such a statement is a heresy! People will try to make arguments that Hell is empty, but do not listen to them. They could NEVER even prove such a thing!

Amen!

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

I would say to remember Matt 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I say to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Sounds to me like a lot of people won’t be saved - even those who, apparently, would have no reason to think otherwise.

I’d also remember Luke:

12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Likewise Proverbs

1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

Myself - I’m not taking anything for granted. I know where I should end up, and it is up to Him whether or not I get what I deserve, or end up in heaven.

 

[ready]

“That all Christians are to be saved.”

[Condemned in the letter “Cum sicut,” Nov. 14, 1459] [Pope Pius II]

'And Moses said:

"In this you shall know that our Lord hath sent me to do all things that you see, and that I have not forged them of my own mind: If they die the accustomed death of men, and if the plague, wherewith others also are wont to be visited, do visit them, our Lord did not send me: but if our Lord do a new thing, that the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, & all things that pertain to them, and they fall alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed our Lord.

Immediately therefore as he ceased to speak, the earth brake asunder under their feet: and opening her mouth, devoured them with their tabernacles & all their substance. And they went down into hell alive covered with the ground, and perished out of the midst of the multitude.

But all Israel, that stood round about, fled at the cry of them that perished, saying: Lest perhaps the earth swallow us also. But a fire also coming forth from our Lord, slew the two hundred fifty men, that offered the incense.’

Numbers 16:28-35

I was hoping to come across this Bible passage to prove to our friends here on this forum that hell is not empty – I just couldn’t remember where it was found in the OT. Thanks so much, Shin, for posting it!!

 

[josemandez]

If she did say that, that strikes me as contradictory tochurch teaching, i.e. “there is no repentance for man after death”.

And I also sense a tinge of presumption in that, unless of course Im reading something in a wrong way.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”

Thus, it doesn’t seem contrary to Catholic teaching to posit that God gives people a “last chance” that they then reject: “By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance.” This last chance need not even be after death, but might somehow precede it. The Catechism also expresses hope that there is a means by which unbaptized infants can be saved.

Though I remain Protestant myself, it seems to me that these teachings aren’t heterodox per se from the Catholic standpoint as I understand it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I do not see why we want to argue one way or the other given that none of us really know. It may be that a number of “reputable” saints have argued that many will go to hell, but we must ask why they think that way. Are they just taking an educated guess, or is it based on divine revelation.

Even if it’s based on divine revelation, we should still call their view into question given that many Jews believe otherwise, and some great and well respected mystics, such as Julian of Norwich, say otherwise based of their revelations. I also know that many will question whether the Jewish perspective should even be considered, but I will remind the readers here that Christianity is an off growth of Judaism, and that its views should not be ignored.

Again, I honestly do not know, but the rationale put forth by Julian of Norwich in her revelations sound plausible.

LOVE!

 

[mdgspencer]

I have read all her books, most more than once, and her autobiography a number of times, because of its important role in my spiritual development. I never saw her say this, and I would have well remembered this if she did.
Nor if she said this would she have been canonized, which is a rigorous process going over the person’s life with a fine-tooth comb.

 

[Shin]

**'Celine, during the SHORT MOMENTS that remain to us, let us not lose our time . . . let us save souls . . . souls are being lost like flakes of snow, and Jesus weeps, and we. . . we are thinking of our sorrow without consoling our Fiance . . . ’

St. Therese of Liseux [General Correspondence 1877-1890]**

It is such joy to think that for each pain cheerfully borne we shall love God more through eternity. Happy should I be if at the hour of my death I could offer Jesus a single soul. There would be one soul less in hell, and one more to bless God in Heaven.

St. Thérèse of the Child Jesus

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

I wish it were empty, at least of souls. The thought that many will find their way there scares me, and makes me wonder what the very least is that could send someone to hell.

 

[powerofk]

Yes, but that sounds just a bit to me like “earning heaven”, which we are incapable of doing. But I’m no theologian and have no pretense to being one. It’s just that I have always understood we can’t get it done on our own; that such is our sinfulness and so minimal are even our best acts, that we really are dependent on God’s grace now and his mercy in the end.

Not saying (like some protestants) that God’s mercy covers all, like a blanket. But I think there is an extreme on the other side that must also be avoided.

I think maybe that’s one of the reasons Ste Therese was so immensely popular at the turn of the 20th Century, and is seemingly enjoying a renewed popularity now. In talking about her large ambitions but little acts in the outcome, it’s pretty plain that “why” we do what we do is more important than “what” we do, when it comes to being “sufficiently good”. Compared to some fairly ordinary missionary, “what” Ste Therese did would not have loomed nearly as “sufficient”. Yet she was canonized and declared a Doctor of the Church whereas many and many a heroic missionary was not.

It’s actually a case of most sins that we have are actually not sins of COMMISION, but instead sins of OMISSION. Remember the passages on the Last Judgment (in Matthew) and about Lazarus an the rich man (in Luke). As far as we know, the condemned in the Last Judgment and the rich man were not aware of any serious sins of commision. The sins that they were condemned for? Ignoring the physical (and spiritual) needs of others. And notice that the rich man didn’t need to go out of his way to help - Lazarus was literally on his doorstep. How many people in our own communities in need do we simply ignore - trying to pretend they don’t exist?

 

[Robert_Sock]

In praying The Chaplet of Divine Mercy I get a strong sense of a plea for all of mankind being saved.

LOVE!

 

[CrossofChrist]

As far as I know she didn’t. Great saint, I love her!

OTOH, we don’t know for sure who if anyone is in hell. Obviously demons and the devil, but we don’t know about humanity (don’t we pray that all might be saved? lex orandi, lex credendi). Not that we have good hope though (per Syllabus of errors)…

 

[ready]

St. Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church: did she say Hell is empty? If she did, why was she made a Doctor? I read this in a combox of a “catholic” website of ill-repute.

No, she has never said that hell is empty. Of this I am absolutely certain. God bless you.