St. Thomas Aquinas and the Eternity of the World

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ChristIsTheWay said:
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/aquinas-eternity.asp

How can St. Thomas hold that the world is created eternal when the Church teaches the world had a beginning in time? I’ve read Thomas on the subject but I am not sure I understand him at all. Too much for my small mind, I suppose.
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The concept of eternal is not the same as infinite. God is infinite - no beginning, no end. Eternal is no end; but not necessarily no beginning.

God Bless.
 
St. Thomas did *not *say the world was created eternal. He said that God could have created an eternal world, i.e., the concept does not involve a contradiction.

So what, you say? Well, in evangelizing atheists, you can’t use proofs from the authority of Scripture, because they don’t take Scripture to be God’s word. So you have to start with arguments from reason. Some people (such as St. Bonaventure) would say that the world’s creation in time is provable not just from Scripture but from reason alone. Such an argument, if sound, could be used to reach atheists. But St. Thomas argued that it can’t be proved from reason alone, you have to appeal to faith. On the other hand, an eternal world would still require a Creator . . .
 
Ad_Orientem said:
St. Thomas did *not *say the world was created eternal. He said that God could have created an eternal world, i.e., the concept does not involve a contradiction.
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How so? Would an orthodox Catholic be free to affirm a created eternal world?
 
Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to read the article you referenced but I can point you out to the point in the Summa where St. Thomas talks about the Creation. He definitely believes in Creation Ex Nihilo, that is from nothing. This is pretty heavy stuff, hope it helps.

First Part, Question 45, Article 1: Whether to create is to make something from nothing?

On the contrary, On the text of Genesis 1, “In the beginning God created,” etc., the gloss has, “To create is to make something from nothing.”

I answer that, As said above (Question 44, Article 2), we must consider not only the emanation of a particular being from a particular agent, but also the emanation of all being from the universal cause, which is God; and this emanation we designate by the name of creation. Now what proceeds by particular emanation, is not presupposed to that emanation; as when a man is generated, he was not before, but man is made from “not-man,” and white from “not-white.” Hence if the emanation of the whole universal being from the first principle be considered, it is impossible that any being should be presupposed before this emanation. For nothing is the same as no being. Therefore as the generation of a man is from the “not-being” which is “not-man,” so creation, which is the emanation of all being, is from the “not-being” which is “nothing.”
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/aquinas-eternity.asp

How can St. Thomas hold that the world is created eternal when the Church teaches the world had a beginning in time? I’ve read Thomas on the subject but I am not sure I understand him at all. Too much for my small mind, I suppose.
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Seems to me that I answerd this same question earlier today. Post #6 above is Thomas’ view. I think you may be confused on two points.
  1. Because Thomas was arguing against pagans who did in fact believe in an eternal world he formed his arguments proving the existence of God on the assumption that the world had always and will always exist. This was to show that the existence of God could be proven even in this case. He did however hold on faith that the universe had a beginning in time. He was a Saint after all.
  2. He did hold that the world, at least as far as its matter, had no built in ontological reason not to exist forever once it had been given its own existence in creation. And this is not contrary to Church teaching if interpreted correctly.
To conclude. The point is the Church teaches Definitively that God created the entire universe from nothing at the beginning of time. That is what Catholics have to hold onto - no matter what philosopher or scientiest or anyone else says, period. Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Seems to me that I answerd this same question earlier today. Post #6 above is Thomas’ view. I think you may be confused on two points.
  1. Because Thomas was arguing against pagans who did in fact believe in an eternal world he formed his arguments proving the existence of God on the assumption that the world had always and will always exist. This was to show that the existence of God could be proven even in this case. He did however hold on faith that the universe had a beginning in time. He was a Saint after all.
  2. He did hold that the world, at least as far as its matter, had no built in ontological reason not to exist forever once it had been given its own existence in creation. And this is not contrary to Church teaching if interpreted correctly.
To conclude. The point is the Church teaches Definitively that God created the entire universe from nothing at the beginning of time. That is what Catholics have to hold onto - no matter what philosopher or scientiest or anyone else says, period. Linus2nd
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That’s all well and fine but Thomas says the following: “Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world had a beginning in time. The question still arises whether the world could have always existed,…” How is this is so? Can an orthodox Catholic hold to a created eternal universe or not? Sorry to be so troublesome but I am just trying to understand all this. Thanks.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
That’s all well and fine but Thomas says the following: “Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world had a beginning in time. The question still arises whether the world could have always existed,…” How is this is so? Can an orthodox Catholic hold to a created eternal universe or not? Sorry to be so troublesome but I am just trying to understand all this. Thanks.
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Saint Thomas was writing prior to the First Vatican Council.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
That’s all well and fine but Thomas says the following: “Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world had a beginning in time. The question still arises whether the world could have always existed,…” How is this is so? Can an orthodox Catholic hold to a created eternal universe or not? Sorry to be so troublesome but I am just trying to understand all this. Thanks.
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You have missinterpreted my posts.
  1. St. Thomas held as a matter of faith that God created the heavens and the earth from nothing at the beginning of time.
  2. As a matter of pure reason he did not think you could prove this doctrine, that it had to be held strictly as an article of faith. So when he argued philosophically , he took the position that the world was eternal. There is a distinction here between what can be proven and what can be known only from faith. Other examples of this would be the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the existence of Angels, the Immaculate Conception, etc.
  • And as I pointed out, Thomas did teach that after the creation the world would exist eternally, as far as its matter was concerned. And this is not contrdicted by any teaching of the Church.
I hope this clears up your understanding of what Thomas said, taught, as opposed to what he believed as a matter of faith. Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
You have missinterpreted my posts.
  1. St. Thomas held as a matter of faith that God created the heavens and the earth from nothing at the beginning of time.
  2. As a matter of pure reason he did not think you could prove this doctrine, that it had to be held strictly as an article of faith. So when he argued philosophically , he took the position that the world was eternal. There is a distinction here between what can be proven and what can be known only from faith. Other examples of this would be the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the existence of Angels, the Immaculate Conception, etc.
  • And as I pointed out, Thomas did teach that after the creation the world would exist eternally, as far as its matter was concerned. And this is not contrdicted by any teaching of the Church.
I hope this clears up your understanding of what Thomas said, taught, as opposed to what he believed as a matter of faith. Linus2nd
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I get the distinction you are making but that is not how I am reading Aquinas. Here is a longer quote of his:

“Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world had a beginning in time. The question still arises whether the world could have always existed, and to explain the truth of this matter, we should first distinguish where we agree with our opponents from where we disagree with them. If someone holds that something besides God could have always existed, in the sense that there could be something always existing and yet not made by God, then we differ with him: such an abominable error is contrary not only to the faith but also to the teachings of the philosophers, who confess and prove that everything that in any way exists cannot exist unless it be caused by him who supremely and most truly has existence. However, someone may hold that there has always existed something that, nevertheless, had been wholly caused by God, and thus we ought to determine whether this position is tenable.”

I understand he believed the world had a beginning in time yet he seems to say that it is still possible for the universe to be eternal. I know I must be missing something but his quote states he will determine whether it is possible for something to be wholly caused by God to exist forever. He ends his argument, as far as I can tell, in the affirmative. Not just as a philosophical position, which it seems odd for him to hold if he did not believe it.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I get the distinction you are making but that is not how I am reading Aquinas. Here is a longer quote of his:

“Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world had a beginning in time. The question still arises whether the world could have always existed, and to explain the truth of this matter, we should first distinguish where we agree with our opponents from where we disagree with them. If someone holds that something besides God could have always existed, in the sense that there could be something always existing and yet not made by God, then we differ with him: such an abominable error is contrary not only to the faith but also to the teachings of the philosophers, who confess and prove that everything that in any way exists cannot exist unless it be caused by him who supremely and most truly has existence. However, someone may hold that there has always existed something that, nevertheless, had been wholly caused by God, and thus we ought to determine whether this position is tenable.”

I understand he believed the world had a beginning in time yet he seems to say that it is still possible for the universe to be eternal. I know I must be missing something but his quote states he will determine whether it is possible for something to be wholly caused by God to exist forever. He ends his argument, as far as I can tell, in the affirmative. Not just as a philosophical position, which it seems odd for him to hold if he did not believe it.
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This quotation is not found in the S.T., Part 1 Ques 46 where Thomas is discussing whether the world had a beginning in time at the creation. Every thing he says in Ques 46 agrees with what I have given.

Pleas give the exact source of your quote as I have given above. If you cannot do that I must assume you have it from a secondary source and that it is therefore to be dismissed. Linus2ned
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I get the distinction you are making but that is not how I am reading Aquinas. Here is a longer quote of his:

“Let us assume, in accordance with the Catholic faith, that the world had a beginning in time. The question still arises whether the world could have always existed, and to explain the truth of this matter, we should first distinguish where we agree with our opponents from where we disagree with them. If someone holds that something besides God could have always existed, in the sense that there could be something always existing and yet not made by God, then we differ with him: such an abominable error is contrary not only to the faith but also to the teachings of the philosophers, who confess and prove that everything that in any way exists cannot exist unless it be caused by him who supremely and most truly has existence. However, someone may hold that there has always existed something that, nevertheless, had been wholly caused by God, and thus we ought to determine whether this position is tenable.”
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First of all this appears to be a paraphrase someone has made from S.T., Part 1, ques 46, and possibley Art 1 and/or 2. I will need to see your exact citation.

Lacking that I will say that in Ques 46, Thomas is discussing whether or not the creation of the world, in time, from nothing, can be demonstrated. The short answer is no, so he goes to ask if that would imply that God did not cause an eternal world. He says that even if the world existed eternally, God was Wholly the cause of its entire existence. He is not implying that Catholics may hold this position or that he does, he absolutely denies that - this will be clear to you if you read Ques 46.

I will need your citation before I can go on because I need to read it in its entire context.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
First of all this appears to be a paraphrase someone has made from S.T., Part 1, ques 46, and possibley Art 1 and/or 2. I will need to see your exact citation.

Lacking that I will say that in Ques 46, Thomas is discussing whether or not the creation of the world, in time, from nothing, can be demonstrated. The short answer is no, so he goes to ask if that would imply that God did not cause an eternal world. He says that even if the world existed eternally, God was Wholly the cause of its entire existence. He is not implying that Catholics may hold this position or that he does, he absolutely denies that - this will be clear to you if you read Ques 46.

I will need your citation before I can go on because I need to read it in its entire context.

Linus2nd
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Here it is again: fordham.edu/halsall/basis/aquinas-eternity.asp I find nothing in St. Thomas’s article that indicates a faithful Catholic can’t affirm a created eternal universe. Perhaps you will and can correct me. Thank you.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Here it is again: fordham.edu/halsall/basis/aquinas-eternity.asp I find nothing in St. Thomas’s article that indicates a faithful Catholic can’t affirm a created eternal universe. Perhaps you will and can correct me. Thank you.
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First of all let’s begin by stating categorically that a Catholic must hold and believe that " All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. ( De fide, Vatican Council 1 )

Secondly, all Catholics must believe and hold that " …The world had a beginning in time.(De fide , Both the 4th Lateran Council, 1215 and the Vatican Council 1 declared that " …together, in the beginning of time God ] founded out of nothing the double order of creatures, spiritual and corporal…"

So no Catholic, in good standing, can hold that the world always existed. They must hold, with the Church, that there was a moment before which, the universe did not exist in any form; before which, there was no physical matter of any kind - no matter how subtlely it may be imagined or defined; that there was a moment before which, nothing existed except God.

And Thomas did not teach anything else. Unfortunately the link you gave does not allow one to see the entire piece in context.

But it sounds much like what Thomas is discussing in S.T., Part 1, Ques 46. There he makes it absolutely clear what Catholics believe, what he believes. But his main object is to show that even if the world had always existed, from a philosophical point of view, it could only have done so if God had been eternally creating it. He wanted to make that point because even if one held, like the Greeks, that the world had always existed, one would still have to believe in God or one could not say that an eternal world ( as some proposed today ) was self sufficient and did not require a God creator.

That is about all I can say. Linus2nd
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/aquinas-eternity.asp

How can St. Thomas hold that the world is created eternal when the Church teaches the world had a beginning in time? I’ve read Thomas on the subject but I am not sure I understand him at all. Too much for my small mind, I suppose.
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St. Thomas did not believe the world was eternal; he believed as the Church teaches that it had a beginning in time. All he was saying was that it could not be proved philosophically that the world had a beginning in time. In other words, he thought it theoretically possible that the world was eternal, even though we know from the teaching of the Church that it isn’t. Others, like St. Bonaventure for instance, thought it could certainly be proved philosophically that the world had a beginning in time. I think St. Bonaventure is correct in this regard.
 
awatkins69 said:
St. Thomas did not believe the world was eternal; he believed as the Church teaches that it had a beginning in time. All he was saying was that it could not be proved philosophically that the world had a beginning in time. In other words, he thought it theoretically possible that the world was eternal, even though we know from the teaching of the Church that it isn’t. Others, like St. Bonaventure for instance, thought it could certainly be proved philosophically that the world had a beginning in time. I think St. Bonaventure is correct in this regard.
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If Thomas was right, the universe is eternal.
 
belorg said:
If Thomas was right, the universe is eternal.
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Come on Belorg, you know that isn’t true. Thomas never taught the world always existed, he said that, as an intellecutual exercise, it could not be demonstrated that it had an absolute beginning in time. As a matter of faith, he held that the world had an actual beginning in time, in which it was created from nothing.

But Thomas did teach that, given its creation in time, the universe, as far as its matter is concerned, was inherently eternal. This does not preclude the general destruction of the world at the end of time. It just means that the existing eternal matter would become the substrait of the " …New heaven and the New earth…" Or perhaps the general destruction of the world at the end of time is much less universal than once supposed.

The Church has remained silent on this issue. So until it speaks with authority, we may hold that the universe, once created, will continue to exist in some form. Linus2nd
 
belorg said:
If Thomas was right, the universe is eternal.
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No, that doesn’t follow. From the fact that it cannot be proved philosophically that the world is temporally finite it does not follow that the world is not temporally finite. The non-verifiability of P does not entail not-P. And it doesn’t matter because I don’t think he was right.
 
Oh no! Not this again.

Every few months somebody “finds” that Aquinas article, misunderstands what it says, and then starts a thread on it.
We refute what the OP says. We’ve done this several times.
But a few months later somebody “finds” that Aquinas article, misunderstands what it says, and then starts a thread on it.

I’m not going to analyze that article again because in a few months somebody will “find” it and start a new confused thread.

Instead, I’ll give you this link to the Summa Theologica where Aquinas pounds the last nail in the coffin of the eternal world idea:
newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article1

I answer that, Nothing except God can be eternal.
 
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