St. Thomas Aquinas...Help me understand the 5 proofs

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5 proofs make sense to me, but I lack an understanding of these 5 ways so I can defend the reason I believe in the existence of God.

Can anyone help me explain the 5 ways better and would greatly appreciate the counter arguments to the common objections/misunderstandings?

Thank you brothers & sisters in Christ! 🙂
 
I hope this makes sense.

The five proofs are being used to increase our understanding of God, theology, and philosophy (which would include all areas of human knowledge).

We must first believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God! We must totally entrust our life to the Person of Jesus Christ.

Human reasoning has always been able to see the “reason” or “word” or “logos” in the created world. The Greek scientists (philosophers of ancient Greece) called it “logos.”

St. Thomas uses their ideas and says we believe and then we can use their ideas, but it is not their idea that make us believe. We believe then we can make use of those ideas.

So, they said that there was a “logos” and then Jesus Christ comes to us and says He is more than a “logos.” He is God’s Loving Word Incarnate.

There are the idealist who do not care to study physical science. They are looking to what clearly thought all of this into existence. The idealist philosophers know that all of this is thought into existence. They do not believe in Jesus Christ. They do know that there is “logos.” They do not know He loves and cares for His creation.
 
Here’s the shortcut: 😃

The universe could not have existed through an infinite past. Every turn of the hour hand on a clock happened a finite time ago. Every spin of an atomic particle happened a finite time ago.

Therefore the universe began.

But it could not begin itself.

Therefore God began it.

That sums it all up.
Atheists try to fight this argument but they can’t succeed.
🤷
 
The universe could not have existed through an infinite past.
Why not? We suspect that it didn’t have an “infinite past” due to the Big Bang Theory, but we really didn’t know that on an a priori basis. That is to say, there is nothing inherently contradictory about a universe with no beginning.
 
The universe could not have existed through an infinite past. Every turn of the hour hand on a clock happened a finite time ago. Every spin of an atomic particle happened a finite time ago.

Therefore the universe began.

But it could not begin itself.

Therefore God began it.
empther, I have no idea why you are always attributing this weaker cosmological argument to Aquinas, who said:
I answer that, By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity (32, 1).
For Aquinas, creation of the universe in time is an article of faith. That is not what the Five Ways deal with. (And if it were, then it would seem that you have caught Aquinas in an explicit contradiction of believing that it can and cannot be proved that the universe began in time.) That interpretation completely ignores Aquinas’s distinction between causal series per se and per accidens. Take Aquinas’s Second Way, for instance:
The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
Why would he say “to take away the cause is to take away the effect” if he were talking about series in time? It is patently false that, for example, when a parent dies, the child dies. That is not the sort of thing that Aquinas is arguing, and we shouldn’t attribute it to him.

It’s also worth pointing out that the principle of proportionate causality clearly doesn’t apply to causal series per accidens. But Aquinas uses it to derive some of the divine attributes. To attribute the impossibility of an infinite past to Aquinas undermines his whole theology.

To the OP, I would recommend Edward Feser’s book Aquinas for a good, readable introduction to the Five Ways and Aquinas’s philosophy in general. He handles a lot of serious critics and the popular misconceptions.
 
Thanks everyone for your answers so far. I really appreciate it 🙂
 
Here’s the shortcut: 😃
Hi Empther,
The universe could not have existed through an infinite past. Every turn of the hour hand on a clock happened a finite time ago. Every spin of an atomic particle happened a finite time ago.
I’m afraid there you’ve betrayed a lack of understanding of the concept of infinity. An infinite regress does not entail an event which happened an infinite time ago.

If you struggle with this one, consider numbers. There are an infinite number of numbers, but ANY two numbers you pick will only be a finite distance from each other. Same thing works with time, or any other sort of sequence. Therefore an infinite regress is at least theoretically possible.
Therefore the universe began.
A fair assumption based on current evidence.
But it could not begin itself.
How would we establish this to be true?
Therefore God began it.
And how did you get here? You seem to have jumped over several steps in your argument here. You’ll need to fill them in if you want this to have any weight (would also help if you defined “God” incidentally).
 
Some of Aquinas’s other comments on the topic of the beginning of the world are appropriate:
Hence that the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.
 
I’m getting the usual half-baked arguments about infinite numbers, object of faith, all all that, all of which I’ve discussed in detail many times on these forums.

It’s sad that no progress in understanding is ever made. 😦
 
I’m getting the usual half-baked arguments about infinite numbers, object of faith, all all that, all of which I’ve discussed in detail many times on these forums.

It’s sad that no progress in understanding is ever made. 😦
Would you mind pointing me to where you have discussed them?

Even if you think the argument you have presented in this thread is a strong argument, it is manifestly not an argument made or endorsed by Aquinas. But the OP was asking for an explication of the Five Ways.
 
… Take Aquinas’s Second Way, for instance:
The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
The parent child example is a bit weak and not directly relevent to the point I think you are making. (To take away the cause is to take away the effect would be more generously exemplified by saying that to kill a man before he procreates is to kill his progeny. And that is quite reasonable an example of what Aquinas’s phrase may mean too).
Even the usual example given of what Aquinas meant (a locomotive jolting a train of tightly coupled carriages all the way to the rear caboose) is not instantaneous in the real world. All matter has some elasticity, even iron.

Also, like it or not, it seems time is intrinsic to the definition of sensible change and therefore of efficient causality even if it wasn’t what Aquinas was primarily saying. All worldly change, by definition, requires some duration of prior time to be associated with the instrumental causes. The word “change” may be problematic as below.

The problem I see here is that there is no consistency of definitions.
(a) While Aquinas is not really talking about time series that is clearly the sort of “sense world” examples he presents to the reader to start with. He even speaks about multiple efficient causes. But if he is not also talking about temporal time/causality why does he say this. For if he is really talking about ontological “sustaining” causality (causal series per se) then how can there be multiple efficient causes? There cannot. Only a god (who is existence) is capable of a “sustaining” efficient causality when we speak of being “per se”. Not even angels can assist there. So there can only be one such efficient cause anyway :eek:. So its a case of I know what Aquinas meant but I heard what he said. Much analogy is at work in this 2nd Way.

(b) We only define/understand efficient causality by way of the senses. ie, by examples of temporal/material change. But the sort of efficient causality Aquinas really seems to be speaking of is about creation ex nihilo and “sustaining” of created things in existence. But we have no experience of such a “change” and strictly speaking we cannot assume this is an example of the same “change” or efficient causality as we know it. We cannot assume it works the same way. We can only speak by analogy not univocally.
Therefore logical defintions breakdown. It is especially hard to see how time is involved in such “change” or “efficient causality.”

I find it interesting that the Catholic Church never uses the word “change” when speaking of transubstantiation - presumably in acknowledgement of exactly the same limitation. We speak of “transforming” or passively “it will become for us…” - at least in the latin.
 
The parent child example is a bit weak and not directly relevent to the point I think you are making. (To take away the cause is to take away the effect would be more generously exemplified by saying that to kill a man before he procreates is to kill his progeny. And that is quite reasonable an example of what Aquinas’s phrase may mean too).
I would argue that it is not possible to refer to something which does not yet exist. There is no progeny to speak of, so there is no effect to be taken away. But some concrete, existing, referable effect is necessary for the proof to get started.

In any case, impossibility of a temporal regress is, I think, definitively ruled out by Aquinas’s other comments on that topic, regardless of what ambiguities you can find in the text of the Second Way.
Even the usual example given of what Aquinas meant (a locomotive jolting a train of tightly coupled carriages all the way to the rear caboose) is not instantaneous in the real world. All matter has some elasticity, even iron.

Also, like it or not, it seems time is intrinsic to the definition of sensible change and therefore of efficient causality even if it wasn’t what Aquinas was primarily saying. All worldly change, by definition, requires some duration of prior time to be associated with the instrumental causes. The word “change” may be problematic as below.
Well, here is the problem. Aquinas’s account of change and efficient causality is not instantaneous, but simultaneous, which is not the same thing. A cause (per se) is simultaneous to its effect, which is consistent with its occurring over a period of time.
The problem I see here is that there is no consistency of definitions.
(a) While Aquinas is not really talking about time series that is clearly the sort of “sense world” examples he presents to the reader to start with. He even speaks about multiple efficient causes. But if he is not also talking about temporal time/causality why does he say this. For if he is really talking about ontological “sustaining” causality (causal series per se) then how can there be multiple efficient causes? There cannot. Only a god (who is existence) is capable of a “sustaining” efficient causality when we speak of being “per se”. Not even angels can assist there. So there can only be one such efficient cause anyway :eek:. So its a case of I know what Aquinas meant but I heard what he said. Much analogy is at work in this 2nd Way.
I think he is talking about ontological sustaining causality. That is, I think, why he says “whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one.”

I’d agree that the text of the Second Way is not clear at all. The question obviously arises as to how one should interpret it, in what sense it differs from the First Way, why (if it is to be read in terms of divine sustaining causality) Aquinas had so much to say about a regress, etc. I am in agreement with Ed Feser’s reading of it as basically the argument from De Ente et Essentia.

Or, if one can develop a sufficiently robust analysis of existence, as Barry Miller has, I think it motivates an argument to the effect that there is “a hidden contradiction in claiming both that, say, Fido [a contingent being composed of an instance of existence and an essence] exists and that God does not.”

Neither way is an entirely straightforward way of reading the Second Way. But I think they are promising possibilities to develop.
(b) We only define/understand efficient causality by way of the senses. ie, by examples of temporal/material change. But the sort of efficient causality Aquinas really seems to be speaking of is about creation ex nihilo and “sustaining” of created things in existence. But we have no experience of such a “change” and strictly speaking we cannot assume this is an example of the same “change” or efficient causality as we know it. We cannot assume it works the same way. We can only speak by analogy not univocally.
Therefore logical defintions breakdown. It is especially hard to see how time is involved in such “change” or “efficient causality.”
I don’t think Aquinas is probing intuitions from accidental change, here. But I agree that a substantial metaphysical apparatus has to be developed in order to defend the ontological sustaining cause reading.

But again, I don’t think it gets its source from accidental instances of efficient causality in nature. The reason is what I mentioned before: that the principle of proportionate causality very clearly doesn’t apply to accidental cases, so Aquinas can’t be read as extrapolating the principle of proportionate causality from the per accidens case to the per se case. Obviously he has a lot of work to do, but I don’t think he’s open to your Kantian concerns here.
 
I’m getting the usual half-baked arguments about infinite numbers, object of faith, all all that, all of which I’ve discussed in detail many times on these forums.

It’s sad that no progress in understanding is ever made. 😦
Interesting, so which part do you disagree with? Do you

a). think that there are only a finite set of integers (numbers)? (If so what do you believe is the highest number?)

OR

b). do you believe that there are two integers which are separated by an infinite number of integers? (If so, please could you specify what these integers are so I can check the maths for myself).

Or have you got some other objection?

Thanks
 
To the OP,
I would recommend Ed Feser’s book Aquinas. The material is too complex to be dealt with here. Furthermore, you don’t want to just be accepting the opinions of random people on the internet. Get something scholarly.

As regards the claim (post #3) that the 5 ways are not meant as proofs, this could potentially be partially correct. If you look at the Summa Contra Gentiles, you will see that Aquinas will knowingly present arguments that are not demonstrative (I, 9, 2)
[2] Now, to make the first kind of divine truth known, we must proceed through demonstrative arguments, by which our adversary may become convinced. However, since such arguments are not available for the second kind of divine truth, our intention should not be to convince our adversary by arguments: it should be to answer his arguments against the truth; for, as we have shown, the natural reason cannot be contrary to the truth of faith.
The sole way to overcome an adversary of divine truth is from the authority of Scripture—an authority divinely confirmed by miracles. For that which is above the human reason we believe only because God has revealed it.
Nevertheless, there are certain likely arguments that should be brought forth in order to make divine truth known. This should be done for the training and consolation of the faithful, and not with any idea of refuting those who are adversaries. For the very inadequacy of the arguments would rather strengthen them in their error, since they would imagine that our acceptance of the truth of faith was based on such weak arguments.
And in (I, 3, 2) Aquinas writes:
[2] There is a twofold mode of truth in what we profess about God. Some truths about God exceed all the ability of the human reason. Such is the truth that God is triune. But there are some truths which the natural reason also is able to reach. Such are that God exists, that He is one, and the like. In fact, such truths about God have been proved demonstratively by the philosophers, guided by the light of the natural reason.
Thus Aquinas claims that it is possible to demonstrate not merely suggest, that God exists.

As regards infinite regress. Aquinas distinguishes between causal series ordered per se and causal series ordered per accidens. Summa Theologiae (I, 46, 2 ad7):
In efficient causes it is impossible to proceed to infinity “per se”—thus, there cannot be an infinite number of causes that are “per se” required for a certain effect; for instance, that a stone be moved by a stick, the stick by the hand, and so on to infinity. But it is not impossible to proceed to infinity “accidentally” as regards efficient causes; for instance, if all the causes thus infinitely multiplied should have the order of only one cause, their multiplication being accidental, as an artificer acts by means of many hammers accidentally, because one after the other may be broken. It is accidental, therefore, that one particular hammer acts after the action of another; and likewise it is accidental to this particular man as generator to be generated by another man; for he generates as a man, and not as the son of another man. For all men generating hold one grade in efficient causes—viz. the grade of a particular generator. Hence it is not impossible for a man to be generated by man to infinity; but such a thing would be impossible if the generation of this man depended upon this man, and on an elementary body, and on the sun, and so on to infinity.
The confusion on this thread just goes to show what I said earlier. Get a scholarly source. I recommend Feser as an easy read, but you could also try Msgr. Wipple, or Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange.
 
Well, here is the problem. Aquinas’s account of change and efficient causality is not instantaneous, but simultaneous, which is not the same thing. A cause (per se) is simultaneous to its effect, which is consistent with its occurring over a period of time.
This is prob at the heart of the matter.
You may be describing a principle that is not internally contradictory (a unicorn is not essentially contradictory) but that doesn’t make it real.
Nor does it make it what most people (including Aristotle the “inventor” of the concept of “efficient causality”) “efficient causality”.

As I say, Aquinas’s “logic” appears to be trading on confused definitions of “efficient causality” that are ultimately irreconcilable.

In the sensible world, from which we gain our definition/understanding of “instrumental causality” and “efficient causality”, cause/effect changes, by definition, do not seem to be simultaneous.

Can you provide a real-world example of instrumental causality you believe to be instantaneous?

The examples I have seen are always ambiguous or no more than the “unicorn”
variety (e.g. a locomotive and its caboose where the coupling is tight and the iron perfectly inelastic. No such thing actually exists).
I would argue that it is not possible to refer to something which does not yet exist.
Why not. Aquinas himself does so all the time.
For example the knowledge that God (and possibly the angels) has of the sensible world.
We know only by effects, but God knows all time (even before things come to be) by his complete knowledge of all “current” causes. Hence He knows all consequences - be they spiritual or material, be they universal or singular. An interesting take on the definition of “existence”. In this understanding your limited concept of “existence” as not applicable to (what appears you) as a future contingency (ie only to known effects) breaks down.

Its not very different from saying “All Men have sinned in Adam”.

If an effect is certain, then for all intents and purposes time makes no difference and the effect does “exist”.

The problem here of course is that Aquinas assumes an objective “God point of view” in
his “metaphysics.” Human philosophers don’t have that knowledge. Ours is only a “perceptive point of view” based in time consequent to effects.
 
To the OP,
I would recommend Ed Feser’s book Aquinas. The material is too complex to be dealt with here. Furthermore, you don’t want to just be accepting the opinions of random people on the internet. Get something scholarly.

As regards the claim (post #3) that the 5 ways are not meant as proofs, this could potentially be partially correct. If you look at the Summa Contra Gentiles, you will see that Aquinas will knowingly present arguments that are not demonstrative (I, 9, 2)

And in (I, 3, 2) Aquinas writes:

Thus Aquinas claims that it is possible to demonstrate not merely suggest, that God exists.

As regards infinite regress. Aquinas distinguishes between causal series ordered per se and causal series ordered per accidens. Summa Theologiae (I, 46, 2 ad7):

The confusion on this thread just goes to show what I said earlier. Get a scholarly source. I recommend Feser as an easy read, but you could also try Msgr. Wipple, or Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange.
Very good. You will find some interesting things on the thread " The First Way Explained, " pg 4 of this forum ( still incomplete ).

Linus2nd
 
As I say, Aquinas’s “logic” appears to be trading on confused definitions of “efficient causality” that are ultimately irreconcilable.
Doesn’t seem plausible to me. As I’ve pointed out twice now (without response), Aquinas can’t be getting his divine sustaining efficient cause by unreflectively extending the concept of accidental efficient causes, since accidental efficient causes do not adhere to the principle of proportionate causality.
In the sensible world, from which we gain our definition/understanding of “instrumental causality” and “efficient causality”, cause/effect changes, by definition, do not seem to be simultaneous.
I don’t think this is true. (I’ll give my example of a simultaneous cause/effect relation below.) All that is absolutely necessary to the significations of “cause” and “effect” is that there is a priority to cause and some sense of dependence of the effect on the cause. There does not seem to be a prima facie case against excluding logical priority.
Can you provide a real-world example of instrumental causality you believe to be instantaneous?
I take you to mean “simultaneous” here. And yes: the shaping of a clay pot on a pottery wheel.
Why not. Aquinas himself does so all the time.
For example the knowledge that God (and possibly the angels) has of the sensible world.
We know only by effects, but God knows all time (even before things come to be) by his complete knowledge of all “current” causes. Hence He knows all consequences - be they spiritual or material, be they universal or singular.
God is simultaneous to all times. (Though simultaneity relations are, of course, not transitive in general, just as they are not transitive in general relativity.) So what God is aware of qua future contingent actually exists to him from eternity.

When Aquinas talks about God’s knowledge of future contingents, Aquinas is not referencing particular future contingents. He is conceiving of possible entities, but those entities are conceptual.

Also, I do not think that the bolded statement is true. God knows all time because he is simultaneous to all of time, not because he knows the state of the universe currently and extrapolates based on laws (or something of the sort). Since Aquinas is an incompatibilist with regard to free will, your proposal would be insufficient as a means for God to know about future contingents.
 
@polytropos @AndrewW94 and everyone else…Again thanks very much for all of your responses.

I got the book,Ed Feser’s book Aquinas, added to my wishlist…I found this recently after my post on EWTN ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/file_index.asp?SeriesId=7132 Fr. Robert Spitzer which I found very helpful in this line of apologetics. 🙂
 
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