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purple_hippo
Guest
what are your oppinions on St. Thomas Aquinas’ views the fact that masturbation is worse than rape, as rape is “proper use of the genitles?”
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Verbum
Guest
Hi Purple,
I voted for rape, but I do think the quiz is somewhat stupid. Still, did St. Thomas actually say that? What is your reference?
If he did say so, I regret to say that he was probably misled by a conception of woman as “temptress”, an idea that is sometimes found among Christians even today.
Rape is infinitely graver than masturbation because it not only violates the commandment on chaste behavior. It assaults a human person, physically of course, but, even worse, to the very depths of her dignity as a human being and can mark her for life.
Verbum
I voted for rape, but I do think the quiz is somewhat stupid. Still, did St. Thomas actually say that? What is your reference?
If he did say so, I regret to say that he was probably misled by a conception of woman as “temptress”, an idea that is sometimes found among Christians even today.
Rape is infinitely graver than masturbation because it not only violates the commandment on chaste behavior. It assaults a human person, physically of course, but, even worse, to the very depths of her dignity as a human being and can mark her for life.
Verbum
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purple_hippo
Guest
i read it in a book by Peter Vardy, called the puzzle of Sex, it says all sorts of information on different attitudes to all different things.
I agree, his comment was due to his time, yet i was intrested in what others thought.
It may be a stupid quiz as so many people are pointing out, yet I thought it was some what intresting, maybe i was wrong as so many of you have liked to point out without with considering what I’ve asked
PH
I agree, his comment was due to his time, yet i was intrested in what others thought.
It may be a stupid quiz as so many people are pointing out, yet I thought it was some what intresting, maybe i was wrong as so many of you have liked to point out without with considering what I’ve asked
PH
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Sentinel
Guest
I find this scary. Did Vardy properly reference this info from St. Thomas Aquinas? Many people take things for granted and out of context.i read it in a book by Peter Vardy, called the puzzle of Sex, it says all sorts of information on different attitudes to all different things.
I agree, his comment was due to his time, yet i was intrested in what others thought.
It may be a stupid quiz as so many people are pointing out, yet I thought it was some what intresting, maybe i was wrong as so many of you have liked to point out without with considering what I’ve asked
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purple_hippo
Guest
There is actually no quote looking back at the page, so im guessing Vardy could have presumed it, i really don’t know. From reading the rest of the book it seems Aquinas did state about masturbation being the wrong use of genitles… yet now Im just confused on the whole matter…
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chevalier
Guest
There was such a belief in middle ages. This is what happens when scholastic logic gets out of touch with life. Most of people who masturbate are ignorant of the evil of it - and imagine the mindset needed to commit rape.
Rape is much graver and I really don’t envy priests who have to absolve rapists. What sort of penance would do? Apart from the fact that only God’s mercy can wash away such an atrocity. Well, only God’s mercy can wash away any sin, including masturbation, but still… you get the idea.
Many people masturbate in their youth, if not most. Probably some saints have done it, too. But I’m not aware of a single saint repenting from rape.
Rape is much graver and I really don’t envy priests who have to absolve rapists. What sort of penance would do? Apart from the fact that only God’s mercy can wash away such an atrocity. Well, only God’s mercy can wash away any sin, including masturbation, but still… you get the idea.
Many people masturbate in their youth, if not most. Probably some saints have done it, too. But I’m not aware of a single saint repenting from rape.
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patg
Guest
The ancient view of biology (still held during the time of Aquinas) was that the male produced the “seed” of the baby and that the woman was only the “incubator”. There was no concept of a woman’s egg - the man provided it all. Thus, masturbation was the real killing of a potential baby while rape gave the child a chance at life. Using this reasoning, rape could be seen as less of an evil.
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purple_hippo
Guest
thank you for understand what i was trying to say…
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JustSomeGuy
Guest
you can find all of this in the summa theologicae, II-II, q. 154, art. 12 at this link: ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/SS/SS154.html#SSQ154A12THEP1
it may be wise to read the whole question. also, it is not written to express any practical opinion about a particular sin. this is a theological question. if one were to ask st. thomas which he would more highly recommend, i’d guess he’d say, ‘masturbation’. since he would see it as the guy is going to hell either way, so why involve someone else. the point is, he is not answering the question, “which is the greater social sin?” or “which sin is more damaging in the social arena?”
picking a particularly unpalatable statement and presenting it as representive of error, is the preliminary steps of rejecting reasoning in regard to dogma altogether. i am sure that the author cited had a wider project of denying Church teachings concerning sin and chastity. this is just one element of the project. this kind of fallacious method tries to cause people to think ‘clearly, he has said something so absurd that he doesn’t have the ability to reach proper conclusions on other matters either.’ i am sure that if you hold to st. thomas’ conclusion that masturbation is worse than rape, the author’s further conclusions about sexual morality would seem absurd.
btw, i’ll bet ya my last beer that if a man never masturbated, and habitualized sexual orgasm through mental fantasy, he would not ever become a rapist. rape is not just a singular act of the body, it is an act stemming from the disposition to do the act. if a drug analogy fits, masturbation is the marijuana and rape is the heroin. or the moral lesson ‘start out steaing candy bars and before you know it you’re stealing a car.’ prevent one sin and you’ll likely prevent the others. maybe st. thomas knew something afterall.
it may be wise to read the whole question. also, it is not written to express any practical opinion about a particular sin. this is a theological question. if one were to ask st. thomas which he would more highly recommend, i’d guess he’d say, ‘masturbation’. since he would see it as the guy is going to hell either way, so why involve someone else. the point is, he is not answering the question, “which is the greater social sin?” or “which sin is more damaging in the social arena?”
picking a particularly unpalatable statement and presenting it as representive of error, is the preliminary steps of rejecting reasoning in regard to dogma altogether. i am sure that the author cited had a wider project of denying Church teachings concerning sin and chastity. this is just one element of the project. this kind of fallacious method tries to cause people to think ‘clearly, he has said something so absurd that he doesn’t have the ability to reach proper conclusions on other matters either.’ i am sure that if you hold to st. thomas’ conclusion that masturbation is worse than rape, the author’s further conclusions about sexual morality would seem absurd.
btw, i’ll bet ya my last beer that if a man never masturbated, and habitualized sexual orgasm through mental fantasy, he would not ever become a rapist. rape is not just a singular act of the body, it is an act stemming from the disposition to do the act. if a drug analogy fits, masturbation is the marijuana and rape is the heroin. or the moral lesson ‘start out steaing candy bars and before you know it you’re stealing a car.’ prevent one sin and you’ll likely prevent the others. maybe st. thomas knew something afterall.
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chevalier
Guest
Even if we assumed the whole of life were in the sperm, it would be more like wasting life… well, in effect killing, but not the same kind of killing as stabbing someone with a knife. Rape, however, is one of the most atrocious violent crimes… No, the view that rape is a lesser evil than masturbation is out of touch with life. If it had come into the head of someone practicing a monkly lifestyle, he could be excused, but it doesn’t mean the view has much merit and we should follow it.
What is more, as we have discovered that the sperm is not everything, masturbation is to be regarded as a lesser sin than it was seen in middle ages. Rape, on the contrary, seems to have been underrated at that time. There is a gap between the two and not a small one.
Every rapist probably masturbated in the past, but this doesn’t mean anyone who has ever masturbated is to become a rapist. Nor can the fact be disregarded that rape involves two persons while masturbation only one.
What is more, rape pregnancy typically results in abortion. So first the child is killed and second the mother is led to kill her own child and have a trauma for life from it as well as from the act itself. Two other persons’ lives are destroyed. This is not so with masturbation.
What is more, as we have discovered that the sperm is not everything, masturbation is to be regarded as a lesser sin than it was seen in middle ages. Rape, on the contrary, seems to have been underrated at that time. There is a gap between the two and not a small one.
Every rapist probably masturbated in the past, but this doesn’t mean anyone who has ever masturbated is to become a rapist. Nor can the fact be disregarded that rape involves two persons while masturbation only one.
What is more, rape pregnancy typically results in abortion. So first the child is killed and second the mother is led to kill her own child and have a trauma for life from it as well as from the act itself. Two other persons’ lives are destroyed. This is not so with masturbation.
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StratusRose
Guest
How is rape the correct use of genitals? Rape is violent, evil and against the will of the woman. It reminds me of receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace as opposed to receiving it in a state of mortal sin. Receiving in mortal sin is not the correct use of the Eucharist.
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chevalier
Guest
The correct use of genitals is full and humane marital act. Rape is rarely marital and never humane.
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Trelow
Guest
It is very easy to misquote St Aquinas due to the manner in which he wrote.
And rape has nothignto do with sex except that it involves the genatials. It is a tool of humuliation and sadism. Of the lust for power, not of flesh.
And rape has nothignto do with sex except that it involves the genatials. It is a tool of humuliation and sadism. Of the lust for power, not of flesh.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
Who cares what’s worse? They are both mortal sins.
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chevalier
Guest
I beg to differ. Lust of the flesh can push people into raping if they are so enslaved by their sexual drive that they won’t bother with the consent part.
Sexual drive has a role in raping. Rape in its most “traditional” form is not even technically possible without it.
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Kevin_Walker
Guest
He probably separated rape from assault & battery. Aggressive sex towards women (captured ‘wives’, concubines, slaves) was very commonly expressed in the Old Testament so that normal sex between a man and a woman in any form would be better than masturbation, which is actually a misuse of the genitiles.
Since the advent and acceptance of monogamous relationships, rape is inexcusable.
Since the advent and acceptance of monogamous relationships, rape is inexcusable.
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Sanctus
Guest
You’re right. St. Thomas Aquinas is possibly the hardest human to quote correctly in context due to his writing style. Frequently he sets up arguments and then proceeds to shoot them down. Sometimes I believe he’ll even set up what seems like four or five valid arguments until he actually writes what he believes…which addresses and refutes all previous points. This makes me suspect all quotations of him because even if you read the entire paragraph you still may not be reading in context…
that being said…
I honestly don’t know whether he said that or not.
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bogeyjlg
Guest
I said this is a stupid quiz because both are equally evil.
In rape, the victim is lowered to that of a mere object to be used to achieve the rapists own ends. That use of someone as an object is pure hatred.
When one masterbates, they are most often using an image of another to satisfy their own sexual desires. In the same token, they are using the other to achieve their own ends. That is still hatred.
Thus I see no difference.
In rape, the victim is lowered to that of a mere object to be used to achieve the rapists own ends. That use of someone as an object is pure hatred.
When one masterbates, they are most often using an image of another to satisfy their own sexual desires. In the same token, they are using the other to achieve their own ends. That is still hatred.
Thus I see no difference.
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