St. Thomas Christians and Marriage Conversions

[ImpulseToSoar]

I’m in Kerala, India right now for summer vacation right now, and during the three weeks I’ve been here I have been attending a plethora of religious ceremonies (mass, engagements, weddings, etc.) but after attending one particular event, I have a inquiry for my fellow Nasranis.

One of my aunts, on my father’s side, (who is Syro-Malabar Catholic, along with my entire family), is getting married to, supposedly, a Jacobite boy. This marriage is arranged, as most Indian weddings are. After the wedding, it is customary for the girl to take on the religion of her husbands’ family. In the case of two people of the same denomination, no conversion is required (unless they happen to be of different rites). After my aunt gets married to this man, she convert from being a Syro-Malabar Catholic to Jacobite. Understandably, I’m rather dismayed that this sort of thing occurs, that someone leaves the fullness of the Catholic Church just in order to get married. The fact that her parents agreed to this situation, as it is an arranged marriage, is troublesome as well.

So I must ask, is this a common occurrence among St. Thomas Christians? Do any of you have particular anecdote to share?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Very common, my family for example has ‘Marthoma’, ‘Syro-Malabar’, ‘Syro-Malankara’, ‘Malankara Orthodox’, ‘Syrian Jacobite Orthodox’ and ‘Church of South India’ members, all St. Thomas Christians – there are also Pentecostals, non-denominationals, and a few other newer denominations.

Between the Catholics and Jacobite Orthodox - it is so common that Pope JP2 and Patriarch Ignatius Zakka - both of blessed memory - signed an agreement in regard to marriages, sacraments and other details. Essentially, the couple is welcome to receive communion in both Jacobite and Catholic Churches.

 

[Vico]

Very common, my family for example has ‘Marthoma’, ‘Syro-Malabar’, ‘Syro-Malankara’, ‘Malankara Orthodox’, ‘Syrian Jacobite Orthodox’ and ‘Church of South India’ members, all St. Thomas Christians – there are also Pentecostals, non-denominationals, and a few other newer denominations.

Between the Catholics and Jacobite Orthodox - it is so common that Pope JP2 and Patriarch Ignatius Zakka - both of blessed memory - signed an agreement in regard to marriages, sacraments and other details. Essentially, the couple is welcome to receive communion in both Jacobite and Catholic Churches.

When morally impossible to receive from one’s own Church, reception is agreed upon, between Catholic and Syrian Orthodox. This is a general practice when the morally impossible and the when the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided.

1984

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/anc-orient-ch-docs/rc_pc_christuni_doc_19840623_jp-ii-zakka-i_en.html
9. Our identity in faith, though not yet complete, entitles us to envisage collaboration between our Churches in pastoral care, in situations which nowadays are frequent both because of the dispersion of our faithful throughout the world and because of the precarious conditions of these difficult times. It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them. It would be a logical corollary of collaboration in pastoral care to cooperate in priestly formation and theological education. Bishops are encouraged to promote sharing of facilities for theological education where they judge it to be advisable. While doing this we do not forget that we must still do all in our power to achieve the full visible communion between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and ceaselessly implore our Lord to grant us unity which alone will enable us to give to the world a fully unanimous Gospel witness.

 

[SyroMalankara]

There’s even more:

sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19940125socrcmarriageagmt.html

Agreement on Interchurch Marriages between the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church
January 25, 1994

This agreement between the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church on interchurch marriages has been prepared taking into account the following elements of the Common Declaration of Pope John Paul II and the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch Zakka I Iwas of Antioch, dated 23 June 1984:

The common profession of faith between the Pope and the Patriarch on the mystery of the Incarnate Word;
The common affirmation of their faith in the mystery of the Church and the sacraments;
The possibility given by the declaration for a pastoral collaboration including the mutual admission of the faithful belonging to both churches to the reception of the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick for a grave spiritual need.
Having considered the above mentioned events and declaration, the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church agreed on the following considerations and norms.

As our two churches believe in and confess the mystery of the Church and its sacramental reality, we consider it our duty to specify the areas of agreement in cases of marriages between the members of our two churches.

Man and woman created in the image of God (Gen. 1: 26,27) are called to become sharers of the eternal divine communion. The sacrament of marriage is an image of this divine communion. Marital intimacy and self-effacing sharing are reflections of the deepest interpersonal sharing within the Trinitarian communion. Hence this intimate marital communion is divinely confirmed by Christ with the seal of unity and of indissolubility, and ordered toward the good of the spouses and the generation and education of the offspring.

He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh?” What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder. (Mt. 19:46).

Marriage is a great sacrament of divine communion and St Paul compares the mutual relationship of the husband and wife to the mystery of communion between Jesus Christ and his Church (cf. Eph. 5: 21-26; Tit. 2:3f; I Pet. 3: if; Rev. 18:7, 21:2). St Paul calls it a great mystery: “This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church” (Eph. 5:32). Hence we believe that the sacrament of marriage bearing the image of the eternal divine communion is also an image of the most intimate communion between the Risen Bridegroom with his Bride, the Church.

The Church is the primordial sacrament of the eternal divine communion and, through the celebration of her sacramental mysteries; she deepens her communion with the divine Spouse and enables her members to participate in the divine life.

Our two churches accept the sacredness and indissolubility of the sacramental bond of marriage and consider the conjugal relationship as an expression of the above communion and a means to achieve self effacing mutual love and freedom from selfishness, which was the cause of the fall of humanity.

In this theological perspective, taking into account the question of the marriages between the members of our two churches, we consider it a matter of our pastoral concern to provide the following directives.

Our two churches desire to foster marriages within the same ecclesial communion and consider this the norm. However, we have to accept the pastoral reality that interchurch marriages do take place. When such occasions arise, both churches should facilitate the celebration of the sacrament of matrimony in either church, allowing the bride/bridegroom the right and freedom to retain her/his own ecclesial communion, by providing necessary information and documents. On the occasion of these celebrations, the couples as well as their family members belonging to these two churches are allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist in the church where the sacrament of matrimony is celebrated. We consider it also the great responsibility of the parents to pay special attention to impart to the extent possible and in mutual accord proper ecclesial formation to their children in full harmony with the tradition of the ecclesial communion to which they have to belong.

The agreement was drafted in November 1993 and released on January 25, 1994, after approval from Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Zakka I.

Pastoral Guidelines

The Pastoral Guidelines which follow the text of the Agreement state that “the pastors of both partners are bound in conscience to provide continued pastoral care to interchurch families in such a way as to contribute to their sanctity, unity and harmony.”

The couples are “allowed to participate jointly in the Eucharistic celebration on special occasions when this joint celebration is socially required”.

Communion at the Wedding

Reciprocity. The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church is an autonomous church under the authority of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. It is thus one of those Eastern churches, which the Roman Catholic Church recognizes as close in faith to itself and “in possession of true sacraments, notably the priesthood and the Eucharist” (Decree on Ecumenism, n.14, 15). For this reason the bride and groom are allowed to receive communion together, whether the wedding and wedding Eucharist takes place in a Catholic church or in a Malankara Syrian Orthodox church.

Family members. This document makes explicit provision for the wider family to receive communion together at the wedding, not simply the bride and groom.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The pastoral guidelines for interchurch marriages accompany the agreement between the Catholic Church and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church, dated 25 January 1994. The guidelines were prepared by the two churches separately, but accepted mutually.

These guidelines are framed on the basis of the common declaration of His Holiness Pope Paul John Paul II and His Holiness Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I Iwas (on 23 June 1984).
Commissions were appointed by both Churches to explore ways and means to foster the existing common affirmation of the faith and sacramental unity between the Churches.
Having considered the above mentioned declaration and the unity that exists between the two Churches in faith and sacraments, both Churches have agreed to accept the reality of interchurch marriages taking place between their members.

The two Churches desire to foster marriages within the same ecclesial communion and consider this the norm. However, accepting the reality that interchurch marriages do take place at times, the two churches have decided to facilitate the celebration of the sacrament of matrimony in either Church, allowing the bride/bridegroom the right and freedom to retain his/her own ecclesial communion, by providing necessary information and documents.

Preparation for Interchurch Marriages
When the parties apply for an interchurch marriage, they should be told that marriage within the same faith is better for the harmony of the family and the upbringing of the children.
If they insist on conducting the interchurch marriage, they should be instructed properly about the Agreement reached between the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church on interchurch marriages.
It should be stressed that, while each partner holds his/her ecclesial faith as supreme or paramount, he/she should respect the ecclesial faith of his/her partner.
A pre-marriage preparatory course and a pre-marital counseling session are highly recommended.
The bride/bridegroom shall produce his/her baptismal certificate.
The priest must ensure that the bride/bridegroom is eligible for marriage.
The priest should ensure that the bride/bridegroom has paid the church donations in connection with marriages according to the practice of the Churches.
The bride and bridegroom, after mutual consultation, may select the church in which the marriage is to be celebrated.
Written permission for interchurch marriage from the respective bishops should be obtained by the bride/bridegroom.
Banns should be published in the respective churches, which also announce that it is an interchurch marriage.
Once the permission is obtained from the bishops, the respective parish priests are expected to issue the necessary documents for the conduct of marriage.
Marriage in the Lent or Advent seasons is only to be conducted with the permission of the bishops.

Celebration of Interchurch Marriages
The liturgical minister should be the parish priest of the church where the marriage is celebrated, or his delegate from the same ecclesial communion.
There is to be no joint celebration of marriage by the ministers of both Churches. The marriage is to be blessed either by the Catholic or by the Syrian Orthodox minister. However, there could be some kind of participation at the liturgical service by the other minister, who could read a Scriptural passage or give a sermon.
On the occasion of these celebrations, the couple and any members of their families who belong to these Churches are allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist in the Church where the sacrament of matrimony is being celebrated.
Proper entries must be made in the Church registers, and marriage certificates should be issued for a record to be made in the register of the other Church.

Pastoral Care of Catholic-Syrian Orthodox Interchurch Families
The Syrian Orthodox partner is to be reminded that he or she has to commit him/herself to imparting to their children proper Orthodox formation, to the extent possible and in agreement with his/her partner. Such formation should be fully in harmony with the Orthodox tradition to which he/she belongs.
The pastors of both partners are bound in conscience to provide continued pastoral care to the interchurch families in such a way as to contribute to their sanctity, unity and harmony.
Each partner is to be advised to attend the liturgical celebrations of his/her respective Church, but the couple may be allowed to participate jointly in the Eucharistic celebration on special occasions when this joint participation is socially required.
Any declaration of the nullity of such marriages is only to be considered with the consent of the bishops concerned from both Churches.
The funeral service should as far as possible be conducted according to the rite of the dead person’s Church, even though he/she may be buried in either of the cemeteries, especially if the other partner is already buried there in a family tomb.

Source: Chorepiscopus V. Rev. Kuriakose Moolayil

 

[ImpulseToSoar]

Typically for an interfaith marriage between a Catholic and a person of another religion, they must receive dispensation from their bishop and promise to raise their children, to the best of their ability, as Catholics.

Would the same be required for this marriage as well? And secondly, has a priest ever denied dispensation to a interfaith couple like this?

These questions are merely for curiosity’s sake, but since you said that these marriages are common, I wonder what the Church’s stance is on them.

 

[Medical_Student]

I am also interested. I know Syro malankara catholic and Jacobite are basically the same visually, but is a catholic allowed to convert to Malankara orthodox? Or better question, do they have to?

If they are allowed to convert that would be a big step in reunification.

 

[Vico]

Typically for an interfaith marriage between a Catholic and a person of another religion, they must receive dispensation from their bishop and promise to raise their children, to the best of their ability, as Catholics.

Would the same be required for this marriage as well? And secondly, has a priest ever denied dispensation to a interfaith couple like this?

These questions are merely for curiosity’s sake, but since you said that these marriages are common, I wonder what the Church’s stance is on them.

The eastern canon law states that permission rather than dispensation is required, and that the Catholic is to remain Catholic and do all that can be done to raise the children as Catholic too.CCEO Canon 813
Marriage between two baptized persons, one of whom is Catholic and the other of whom is non-Catholic, is prohibited without the prior permission of the competent authority.

CCEO Canon 814
For a just reason the local hierarch can grant permission; however he is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:

(1) the Catholic party declares that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of falling away from the faith and makes a sincere promise to do all in his or her power to have all the offspring baptized and educated in the Catholic Church;

(2) the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that the other party is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

(3) both parties are to be instructed on the essential ends and properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either spouse.
​

 

[Vico]

I am also interested. I know Syro malankara catholic and Jacobite are basically the same visually, but is a catholic allowed to convert to Malankara orthodox? Or better question, do they have to?

If they are allowed to convert that would be a big step in reunification.

See post 8, the Catholic is to remain Catholic.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Typically for an interfaith marriage between a Catholic and a person of another religion, they must receive dispensation from their bishop and promise to raise their children, to the best of their ability, as Catholics.

Would the same be required for this marriage as well? And secondly, has a priest ever denied dispensation to a interfaith couple like this?

These questions are merely for curiosity’s sake, but since you said that these marriages are common, I wonder what the Church’s stance is on them.

For a marriage between an Orthodox and Catholic, I’ve never heard of the marriage being denied. In the Indian Churches of Syriac Tradition, the couple will join the husbands church, unless there is some exception. Both parents can promise to raise them Catholic/Orthodox to the best of their ability. In the case of a Malabar/Jacobite marriage, perhaps Malankara Syriac Catholic is the best of their ability. The two will have to figure that out with their priests. The churches do not require the impossible, only that the possible be done to the best of one’s ability.

I should note, I have heard of marriages between Catholics and “Marthoma Syrian Church” being denied by the Catholic and Orthodox bishops, because the Marthoma church is protestant in communion with Anglicans.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I am also interested. I know Syro malankara catholic and Jacobite are basically the same visually, but is a catholic allowed to convert to Malankara orthodox? Or better question, do they have to?

If they are allowed to convert that would be a big step in reunification.

As stated earlier, the custom among St. Thomas Christians is typically for the bride to join her husbands church, although the reverse does occur with no issues. The agreement between Catholics and Jacobite Syriac Orthodox is that one need not convert. The Malankara Orthodox have not signed on to this agreement officially, but many priests will uphold it as applying to them, some may not.

My wife is from an Orthodox family, she did not have to convert when marrying me, but chose to since we’d be regularly worshipping together and it would make it more convenient for us; it’s not even really considered “converting”, but simply making a profession of faith, receiving Eucharist and joining my parish rolls.

 

[Medical_Student]

Are Syro malankara and Jacobite/indian orthodox attend each other’s services? Does attending orthodox liturgy on Sunday fulfill your Sunday obligation? Is a catholic woman permitted by the Catholic Church to convert to orthodoxy to marry?

 

[dzheremi]

Apparently as recently as 2008, the USCCB was telling people that the Malankara Orthodox do not bless such marriages. Not being Malankara Orthodox myself, I have no idea whether or not this is true (I know that the Coptic Orthodox Church does not, and neither do the Orthodox Tewahedo). Since the quotes provided by other posters in this thread predate the linked document by some time, I am a bit confused. User SyroMalankara, since you said that you have family members of both churches, can you confirm that such unions are sacramentally blessed/recognized by the MOC, rather than tolerated but openly frowned upon? (cf. in the COC, for instance, the mixed-church marriage is not recognized or celebrated in any way, and the Coptic person in the marriage is barred from communion as a result of having separated themselves from communion with the Church via that act, but they are not ordered to divorce or anything like that. They just sort of keep showing up and don’t take communion. I personally find it a little odd, since unlike in other churches frequent communion is very much the norm in the COC, but hey…it’s the church’s rule, and there is a logic to it. )

 

[Medical_Student]

Very interesting, thanks. I knew Copts don’t allow it–have been to quite a few DLs myself (best friend is coptic orthodox).

Granted, this is a publication from the USCCB…regarding matters of orthodoxy/eastern catholicism…

 

[SyroMalankara]

Are Syro malankara and Jacobite/indian orthodox attend each other’s services? Does attending orthodox liturgy on Sunday fulfill your Sunday obligation? Is a catholic woman permitted by the Catholic Church to convert to orthodoxy to marry?

All three Churches can attend each other’s Liturgies. Jacobites will not concelebrate with Malankara Orthodox or Catholics; Catholics won’t concelebrate with Jacobites or Malankara Orthodox; Malankara Orthodox won’t concelebrate with Catholics or Jacobites.

However, all of the above will attend and pray some of the prayers/give the sermon/attend in secular dress, the weddings or celebrations of the other. The only exceptions are between the Jacobite Syrian Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox - in many places, the priests treat each other cordially, some places with open hostility, due to the situation of the two Churches.

Jacobites Syrian Orthodox and Catholics laity are allowed to receive Communion from each other. Malankara Orthodox are not officially allowed to.

The idea of a “Sunday Obligation” is very Latin, however, one should normally attend one’s own Church. If, for special occasion - wedding, memorial, parish feast, etc; we attend the parishes of the other. Although reception is allowed, it is still uncommon, outside of places where it would be difficult such as the Middle East, or some rural areas where one’s own jurisdiction is unavailable.

I wouldn’t say the Catholic is “permitted” to convert, however, converting is not restricted and is tolerated.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Apparently as recently as 2008, the USCCB was telling people that the Malankara Orthodox do not bless such marriages. Not being Malankara Orthodox myself, I have no idea whether or not this is true (I know that the Coptic Orthodox Church does not, and neither do the Orthodox Tewahedo). Since the quotes provided by other posters in this thread predate the linked document by some time, I am a bit confused. User SyroMalankara, since you said that you have family members of both churches, can you confirm that such unions are sacramentally blessed/recognized by the MOC, rather than tolerated but openly frowned upon?

This is correct. The Syriac Orthodox and Catholics have agreed to bless the marriages; the Malankara Orthodox have not officially signed this accord, nor anything similar. HOWEVER, this doesn’t mean the clergy won’t attend in their secular dress and do all the usual acts that any non-concelebrating clergymen does.

(cf. in the COC, for instance, the mixed-church marriage is not recognized or celebrated in any way, and the Coptic person in the marriage is barred from communion as a result of having separated themselves from communion with the Church via that act, but they are not ordered to divorce or anything like that. They just sort of keep showing up and don’t take communion. I personally find it a little odd, since unlike in other churches frequent communion is very much the norm in the COC, but hey…it’s the church’s rule, and there is a logic to it. )

This is how it is currently with the MOC, but not the SOC.

 

[Medical_Student]

This is correct. The Syriac Orthodox and Catholics have agreed to bless the marriages; the Malankara Orthodox have not officially signed this accord, nor anything similar. HOWEVER, this doesn’t mean the clergy won’t attend in their secular dress and do all the usual acts that any non-concelebrating clergymen does.

This is how it is currently with the MOC, but not the SOC.

Thanks for your responses.

Are Syro-Malankara catholics synyonymous with Knanaya Catholics?

Are Malankara Indian orthodox and syrian jacobite orthodox liturgies the same?

Can you give a description of why there is animosity between Malankara (Indian) orthodox and syrian jacobite orthodoxy?—other than one wanted to remain autocephalous and not under the Syriac patriarch in Europe?
–this is odd, considering both are Oriental Orthodox? Indian malankara Orthodox is autocephalous, but the syriac orthodox are under the Syriac Orthodox Church which is autocephalous Oriental orthodox itself.

Is fulfilling Sunday obligation really a Latin idea? Doesn’t one have to go to Mass/Qurbana every Sunday in India, Orthodox or Catholic?

Which Church in India is closest to the Church before the Portugeuse arrived in the 15th century? I assume the one that is closest to the Nestorian Assyrian Church of the East?

Do you know any Catholic women who have converted to either Jacobite or Malankara Orthodoxy, and been given the “okay” by Catholic clergy? This is fascinating to me. In these mixed marriages, are the children always raised in the father’s Church?

HOWEVER, this doesn’t mean the clergy won’t attend in their secular dress and do all the usual acts that any non-concelebrating clergymen does.

Can you explain this further, I don’t understand?

Thanks for answering the questions. My parents are Syro malabar, but I was born in the US in a Latin rite church.

 

[Medical_Student]

To the Coptic Orthodox fellow, are all Oriental Orthodox churches allowed to participate in your communion/Eucharist?

By this, I am specifically referring to Jacobite syrian Orthodoxy (under the syriac patriarch HH Aphrem 2) and Indian (Malankara) Orthodox (autocephalous).

 

[dzheremi]

To the Coptic Orthodox fellow, are all Oriental Orthodox churches allowed to participate in your communion/Eucharist?

By this, I am specifically referring to Jacobite syrian Orthodoxy (under the syriac patriarch HH Aphrem 2) and Indian (Malankara) Orthodox (autocephalous).

Yes. As far as I have seen anyway, we do not get directly involved in the sad dispute of the Indian church, which anyway is not about the content of their faith, but over issues of autocephaly that don’t involve us. HH Moran Mor Ignatius Aphrem II is mentioned by name in every liturgy (together with HH Abune Antonious of Eritrea – another country whose native Orthodox church has had troubles recently after the government deposed the patriarch, placed him under arrest, and installed a puppet by the name of Dioskoros in his place; Lord have mercy), though this is not seen as an endorsement of one Indian faction over another, but is instead the result of a preexisting agreement with the Syriac Orthodox and Eritrean churches to mention each others’ patriarchs in every liturgy (other patriarchs may be mentioned at the presiding priest’s discretion; for instance, I have noticed that back when we had Ethiopians regularly attending our liturgy, HH Abune Paulos and later HH Abune Matthias would be mentioned).

While I have not communed with Malankara or Syriac Orthodox visitors yet (since we haven’t had any in the 3 years that I’ve lived at my current location), I have known Malankara Orthodox who have communed in other Coptic churches. So I do not think this is a problem for us. This is for others to work out, unless it comes before a council or other mediation at some point.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thanks for your responses.

Are Syro-Malankara catholics synyonymous with Knanaya Catholics?

no, Knanaya are an group of Malayali Christians who practice endogamy, they are members of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church. There are about 30 parishes of Knanaya Catholics who follow the Syro-Malankara/Jacobite Syriac Tradition but are under the Syro-Malabar Church hierarchy.

Are Malankara Indian orthodox and syrian jacobite orthodox liturgies the same?

Malankara Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, and Syro-Malankara Catholic Liturgies and prayers are the same.

Can you give a description of why there is animosity between Malankara (Indian) orthodox and syrian jacobite orthodoxy?—other than one wanted to remain autocephalous and not under the Syriac patriarch in Europe?

the Syriac Patriarch of Antioch is based in Damascus Syria. The dispute has to do with which version of history each church believes.

Is fulfilling Sunday obligation really a Latin idea? Doesn’t one have to go to Mass/Qurbana every Sunday in India, Orthodox or Catholic?

sure, but not out of obligation, but out of love for God.

Which Church in India is closest to the Church before the Portugeuse arrived in the 15th century? I assume the one that is closest to the Nestorian Assyrian Church of the East?

closest according to what criteria? The Church of the East in India is not original, but a group of SyroMalabar who left Catholicism and joined fairly recently within the last 200yrs.

Do you know any Catholic women who have converted to either Jacobite or Malankara Orthodoxy, and been given the “okay” by Catholic clergy? This is fascinating to me. In these mixed marriages, are the children always raised in the father’s Church?

I don’t know one who has been denied yet… in the last 60yrs… normally the fathers church, sometimes mothers, sometimes both…