St. Thomas Christians and Marriage Conversions

[Vico]

…

 

[Medical_Student]

Thanks, I am familiar with that!

 

[SyroMalankara]

On that chart, there should be some sort of mention that the Malabar Independent Syrian Church actually, for the most part, merged into the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church in 1977, when their head and father, Aboon Mor Philexinos Paulos joined the Malankara Catholic Church. The reconstituted Malabar Independent Syrian Church was given a bishop by the laying on of hands by the Marthoma Syrians. Today, they are in full communion with the Marthoma Syrians, and partially with Anglicans, although following the Orthodox/MalankaraCatholic Tradition fully… they are also divided in that the previous head bishop and the now head bishop had a falling out, not sure if they reconciled.

 

[Medical_Student]

The reconstituted Malabar Independent Syrian Church was given a bishop by the laying on of hands by the Marthoma Syrians. Today, they are in full communion with the Marthoma Syrians, and partially with Anglicans, although following the Orthodox/MalankaraCatholic Tradition fully

Wait, so did the members switch over to Malankara Catholic Churches, or are they still protestants?

Another question: What is the status of Christianity, with respect to Orthodoxy vs Catholicism vs protestantism in India/Kerala? Is it growing, staying the same, or decreasing?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Wait, so did the members switch over to Malankara Catholic Churches, or are they still protestants?

Malankara Catholics

Another question: What is the status of Christianity, with respect to Orthodoxy vs Catholicism vs protestantism in India/Kerala? Is it growing, staying the same, or decreasing?

All are growing, both in Kerala and in India generally. Catholicism is the largest Christian Church in India, mainly Latin outside Kerala. In Kerala, Syro-Malabar Catholics are the largest group - these numbers include Knanaya Catholics, followed by the Orthodox Churches, then Anglican Church of South India, followed by their full communion partners the Marthoma Syrians, and the Syro-Malankara Catholics. The numbers for the Orthodox are hard to divide between Syriac and Indian because laity go to both often - except for the Knanaya Jacobites which are always Syriac Orthodox - and churches are still in embroiled in legal disputes on which belongs to whom, Marthoma numbers tend to be very inflated - some estimates by 30-40%.

 

[Sigma007]

Hi, I was born to parents of two different rites. My mother is Syro-Malankara and my father is Syro-Malabar. I was Baptized in the Syro-Malabar Church but received Holy Communion and Confirmation in the Syro-Malankara Church. I spent the majority of my childhood in the Syro-Malankara Church but now attend a Syro-Malabar Church. I was wondering, which church to I officially belong to: Syro-Malabar or Syro-Malankara and why?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi, I was born to parents of two different rites. My mother is Syro-Malankara and my father is Syro-Malabar. I was Baptized in the Syro-Malabar Church but received Holy Communion and Confirmation in the Syro-Malankara Church. I spent the majority of my childhood in the Syro-Malankara Church but now attend a Syro-Malabar Church. I was wondering, which church to I officially belong to: Syro-Malabar or Syro-Malankara and why?

Since your father is Syro-Malabar, you are Syro-Malabar. You are free to continue worshipping in either Church.

 

[Vico]

Hi, I was born to parents of two different rites. My mother is Syro-Malankara and my father is Syro-Malabar. I was Baptized in the Syro-Malabar Church but received Holy Communion and Confirmation in the Syro-Malankara Church. I spent the majority of my childhood in the Syro-Malankara Church but now attend a Syro-Malabar Church. I was wondering, which church to I officially belong to: Syro-Malabar or Syro-Malankara and why?

The current canon law of the eastern Churches allows for two Catholic parents to choose which of their church sui iuris their children (baptized under age 14) will be members of, if they are in agreement, but if not the one of the eastern father is it. Unless they both agreed to Syro-Malankaraa, you are Syro-Malabar, and it would have to be officially noted. In some cases there can be a switch at age 14.
CCEO

Canon 29

1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.
2. If the child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year is:
   (1) born of an unwed mother, he is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the mother belongs;
   (2) born of unknown parents, he is to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of those in whose care he has been legitimately committed are enrolled; if it is a case of an adoptive father and mother, 1 should be applied;
   (3) born of non-baptized parents, the child is to be a member of the Church sui iuris of the one who is responsible for his education in the Catholic faith.

Canon 33
A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 34
If the parents, or the Catholic spouse in the case of a mixed marriage, transfer to another Church sui iuris, children under fourteen years old by the law itself are enrolled in the same Church; if in a marriage of Catholics only one parent transfers to another Church sui iuris, the children transfer only if both parents consent. Upon completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children can return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 38
Christian faithful of Eastern Churches even if committed to the care of a hierarch or pastor of another Church sui iuris, nevertheless remain enrolled in their own Church.

 

[Medical_Student]

How large is the Church of the East in Kerala?

Like this video:
youtu.be/rACyNMX4LS8

Also, how come a lot of orthodox and Catholic Churches use the synthesized, electronic piano music now? Why not how it used to be (violin,tambourine,accordion my dad says) ?

Thanks Syro malankara

 

[Peter_J]

How large is the Church of the East in Kerala?

You mean those in communion with the ACoE? They are very few.

 

[Medical_Student]

Yes they are quite small, you have number ? 1000, 10000?

 

[dzheremi]

That’s something I’ve wondered too, but the Indian Orthodox I’ve asked (who are all in America) say that’s not used at their parishes, and they don’t know why it’s apparently common in India. Maybe it’s also common in the Indian churches in America, too, and I’m just not asking the right people. I don’t know.

Thank God unaccompanied or mostly unaccompanied liturgies and other celebrations do still occur in the Indian Orthodox churches, both in India and outside of it.

HE Titus Yeldho, St. Mary’s Syriac Orthodox Cathedral, Kerala

Aboon Mor Ostathiose Issac prays the Holy Qurbono in India

Fr. Aju Philip Matthews - Adoration of the Holy Cross for the Feast of the Resurrection, St. Mary’s Orthodox Church, Oak Lawn, IL, USA.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes they are quite small, you have number ? 1000, 10000?

I believe I’ve heard 10,000 or 15,000.

 

[dzheremi]

According to what claims to be their official website, the Church of the East in India has 30,000 followers in 30 parishes (24 in Kerala alone, and one in UAE).

 

[Medical_Student]

Thanks for the response Peter.

dzheremi It’s electronic piano is also used in Syro malabar churches in the US, or atleast the 2 I’ve been to. I’m not sure when this became a thing–I much prefer the isntruments.

To Syro Malankara: Is there ever any use of classical Indian instruments at Qurbana? Like Indian flute, drums, sitar, instruments that are *distinctively * Indian? ---- example, the instruments used in this song: youtu.be/Em2LoN4WpO0

Thank you for the responses everyone, very kind.

 

[Thomas48]

How large is the Church of the East in Kerala?

Like this video:
youtu.be/rACyNMX4LS8

Also, how come a lot of orthodox and Catholic Churches use the synthesized, electronic piano music now? Why not how it used to be (violin,tambourine,accordion my dad says) ?

Thanks Syro malankara

Hello my fellow Syro Malabar brother! I can’t speak for the Orthodox but as for us Syro Malabar Catholics yes your father is right, the Holy Qurbana used to have instruments like the drum, harmonium (looks like an accordian), violin, etc. The Qurbana used this form until the late 1900’s, the Church started to take on a new form of liturgical melody style. Todays Qurbana with the electric piano and its melodies is known as the classical form, the old form you speak of with the instruments is known as Thuya (basically the Syriac Form). The Thuya form of liturgical melody and the Classical form sound nothing alike, the Holy Qurbana is exactly the same except classical has taken on the electronic piano and new melodies to accompany the liturgical songs.

The change occured in an attempt to modernize the Church with the trends and attributes of the time. Today the Thuya form is used only for funerals (office for the dead) but only with the old meoldies not the live instruments (unless that particular parish holds the instruments and those who know how to play Thuya). Sometimes older priests will sing and celebrate the Thuya form on their anniversaries.

Sarva Dhipanam Karthave (Lakhu Mara)
youtu.be/odMGTWQQGi8 (Thuya Form)
youtu.be/eXbb5-IVxnI (Classical Form)

 

[Thomas48]

As for Indian instruments in the Syro Malabar Qurbana, well live instruments are very rare but all the melodies that come from the electronic piano use Indian instruments and a variety of all instruments (sometimes a little too much for my liking). I agree with you that we should really return to Thuya, if not the live instruments atleast the traditional melodies

 

[SyroMalankara]

How large is the Church of the East in Kerala?

Like this video:
youtu.be/rACyNMX4LS8

This is not Church of the East, this is a Syro-Malabar Qurbana.

Also, how come a lot of orthodox and Catholic Churches use the synthesized, electronic piano music now? Why not how it used to be (violin,tambourine,accordion my dad says) ?

Thanks Syro malankara

Ugh. Don’t get me started. Many people who are volunteering in the choir self-studied popular music and have no training on the liturgical music at all. Many priests don’t either. It grates my ears to no end. The musicians in the US are actually better trained than many in Kerala. The use of synthesizers, keyboards, and other terrible additions are rampant - educated priests from all our Churches have stated this to no avail.

Rev. Fr. MP George, Malankara Orthodox Church, who was given the honor “Malphono Rabo d’Musicoro”, spent 15yrs notating the music of the West Syriac Church, the print is available from SEERI in Kottayam. This is the best resource available for the Churches of this Tradition, and kept our music from being lost.

Rev. Fr. Joseph J. Palackal, Ph. D. has done something similar for the East Syriac Churches, mainly of the Malabar recension.

 

[Medical_Student]

Thank-you for your response, and God bless those 2 priests.